General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIf the most extreme Christian Fundamentalist could set up law as they wish?
They would behave EXACTLY like Islamic extremists.
You damn well know they would.
The ONLY thing holding them back is that we have a separation of church and state.
We are ruled by the rule of governed law.
Not by the rule of any g-d.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)...or possibly imprisoned for three miscarriages.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)They've floated that more than once.
I am sorry that you loved and adored and then lost those people you never got to know.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)This is an interesting thread from that point of view, the only ones who seem to give a shit are the atheists.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218176249
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)That was a fun one. Really sums it up well. Hypocrisy, thy name is (obligatory *some*) christians.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Last edited Fri Jan 9, 2015, 10:37 PM - Edit history (1)
Take Ireland, for example. A deeply Catholic country, with no "separation of church and state". Yes, the abortion laws there suck, but they are not "behaving EXACTLY like Islamic extremists". As far as I know, people don't get stoned to death there for being gay, for example.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Gay folks are embraced and loved for the most part.
I have both relatives and friends in Ireland, and I visit frequently.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)I don't need to see the sarcasm tag to see it.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)That was not sarcastic.
I have many gay friends there.
Much less closeted than here.
And women? I'd love to see someone treat an Irish woman poorly and live to tell about it.
What part did you think was sarcasm?
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Raped by her father and the child would never survive and she had cancer.
Tough luck.
That fetus is way more important.,,than you.
It might be male.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)But that hardly makes Ireland comparable to a Muslim country where women are covered head to toe, where they must ride in the back seat of a car, where they cannot be seen by other men, where they can be murdered for any stupid transgression.
I cannot give respect to a religion that subjugates women. One that considers being gay punishable by death.
I agree with you that fundamentalists of any stripe are horrid.
But the countries that subjugate women are almost entirely Muslim.
The West shunned South Africa for years (rightly) because of apartheid.
But the West ignores the plight of women and girls, kidnapped, shot, genitally mutilated, stoned, gah, I could go on, but I can't think about it anymore.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
I'll be in Ireland again soon. You could not PAY me to visit a country that treats women as less than camels.
Warpy
(111,359 posts)because the latter might limit the number of future children she could pop out. It's a procedure that has been labeled savage in the rest of the world. The church approves, of course. She might have all boys, you know.
If you want to find out what Christian theocracy really means, ask any Irish woman over 75 who survived the Magdalene Laundries. You think the Protestants are going to be any better? Really?
You're kidding yourself. Likely they will be even worse.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... is that in Muslim countries or in Ireland where they saw women's pelvic bone apart rather than performing a Caesarian? That is effing barbarian.
I think they might have gotten that one stopped, but it's only been within the last couple of years.
An article about it was in medical literature a couple of months ago.
Ireland has been a horror for women for a very long time. They're only now beginning to break free with divorce and contraception, the priests' death grip loosened by the pedophile scandal.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... what my Irish grandmothers/female cousins suffered through. How I'm alive, I'll never know.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)You're funny.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)then you are living in a fantasy land.
I don't get it. I came out in 1975 (before it was cool), and urged everyone I knew to do it.
I got a lot of blowback. No regrets.
But yes, there are gay folks in the closet.
Pro tennis, soccer, NFL, baseball...just to begin...but also folks who are RIGHTLY afraid of being fired because it is still legal to do that in MANY states.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)I went to HS with out folk since about 78. They were some of the most popular people there.
Yeah. You are right.
There is much acceptance and welcoming now (don't ever say tolerance, hate that.)
But we gotta work on those pockets.
I think middle school will always be hell no matter what, though.
That first injection of hormones is quite a game change.
I think I cried myself to sleep many nights. I also think crawling through those awful rocks and thorns and emotions is part of what makes us human.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)For some reason, I was happy when I finally figured it out.
I was out of high school before it came to me (kind of slow on the uptake lol)
I was so thrilled I wanted to tell everyone. Since I was in the Air Force at the time, that didn't work out so well.
Cannot believe that you can be openly gay in the military now. Though even in those days, EVERYONE knew who was.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)You finally figured out the where you liked to put your stuff.
I'm sorry was that too blunt?
I am not really good at self censoring sometimes.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)So I have no stuff to put - so to speak.
Not offensive. I'm giggling.
F4lconF16
(3,747 posts)One is a mormon, the others are just worried about jobs and family issues. I'm sure I know more that I don't know about.
What a post.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Who needs human rights as long at they're "nice" to us, huh?
Plus there was that whole enslavement thing in which more than 10,000 women were imprisoned in Catholic run laundries for 70+ years until 1996.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)And my experiences there.
I travel to Ireland quite often, and have since I was a child.
My great aunt lives there...in her late 70's - free as a bird and quite unenslaved last time I checked.
I know many many other Irish women (and girls) from age 3 to age 40 +. Some are wives and mothers, some are gay. One is a black belt karate champion who competes all over Europe at the age of 19. Are we talking about the same country????
They seem to have all their rights.
Goodness gracious though, don't let this get in the way of your view of Ireland as some sort of horrid place.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)The discussion is about religion in society and government. You said that women are not second class citizens there. I contend religion is still a major reason why they are not to be lauded as an example of Christianity and government being A-ok is all.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I just chimed in.
I totally will agree with you about religion.
Religion has caused nothing but strife in this world.
Catholicism is another religion that would like to subjugate women. They're losing though. And they don't genitally mutilate them, nor do they stone them. (They might want to - but they don't)
Several of my friends in Ireland identify as Pagans. Hilariously, they had their children christened in the church anyway. I was there at one of the christenings and ribbed them all mercilessly.
Being Irish, they laughed too. It's a running joke between us all.
I wish we could all learn from them. Life is to be enjoyed. Friends are fun, and there is nothing wrong with a good argument as long as we all buy a round during the discussion.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)from whom we could learn a lot. Many places still need work when is comes to the rights of women and LGBT, the US obviously included.
I know a large number of Brits - and they are all atheists.
Here, here... this round's on me
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Came here in the 50's so I'm first generation with a dual nationality.
My dad was an atheist...as is my mom.
They took us to the Unitarian church as children, where we learned evolution WAY before we learned it in our southern school.
I'm pretty much agnostic I guess. I always believe in a god/goddess on an airplane lol.
Otherwise, I just believe in the spirits that live in the trees and the animals and in nature. Pagan? Animistic? Who knows. I feel at peace in nature.
Next round on me.
Now, I'm taking my tired butt to bed.
Hey, thanks to you and Alphafemale for the discussion.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)And I have lived in the south....granted just GA and SC mostly coastal....which isn't REALLY the SOUTH south.
People just seemed hostile to difference in MS.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)=======================================================================================
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I highly recommend it.
You will come back smiling like the Irish eyes of song fame.
drmeow
(5,025 posts)if it was a study or just a hypothesis - but I remember reading a paper which suggested that, ironically, the separation of church and state contributed to the extreme fundamentalism of American Christians. In states where there is a state religion, the very religious do not see the government as a threat to their religion and have no call or grounds to feel persecuted so they are less likely to get rabid about the laws. But when you have a proscribed separation, the very religious see the government as a direct threat to their religion, convince themselves they are persecuted, and get rabid. I could very much see the current American extremists, in the paranoid delusion fostered by the manipulative right wing politicians which fell on fertile ground due to the existing perceived threat, behaving much like Islamic extremists if they were every able to truly and completely take over this country. I would see:
mandatory religious education
mandatory church attendance at least until 18
re-criminalization of all sorts of "non-Christian" behavior
religion listed on identification
destruction of other religions places of worship (and eventually other sects)
relegation of non-Christians to second class citizens
Oh - and a massive, bloody, lengthy civil war which I doubt this country would survive!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)It simply is not an issue. Also, there is essentially no religious input into abortion laws there. And of course there is an official state religion, so absolutely no separation of church and state.
I am not sure what the message is, but I do find this interesting.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)It's my Friday, but good luck to you on this one. They won't listen.
Next time I'm in Ireland, I'll remember my chador.
drmeow
(5,025 posts)The Brits don't care because they have an official state religion so the religious fanatics perceive that they have power that others don't. As a result, they aren't threatened by non-religious politicians and don't feel that they need to impose their religion through the laws. But in the US, because they don't have that power (of a state religion), non-religious politicians and laws which go against their religion freak them out because those things highlight that lack of power (at least, that's what the theory/study says). Our separation of church and state when combined with the manipulation of the religious arm of the right wing over the past 30 years (something which wouldn't work as well if there was a state religion) has fostered a degree of political fundamentalism which would be harder to achieve in a place with an official religion - when there is a state religion people of that religion feel secure and people who are not of that religion know they can't change it. it is a bit like the swinging of a pendulum - if it doesn't go very far off center in one direction, it won't go very far the other direction. But if you pull it back to the extreme, it is going to hit the extreme on the other side, too. That's why I think if you put the extreme religious in control here they would take this country much further down the road of religious control than you see in places like Ireland or England - or, at least, they would try.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)"What utter rot."
drmeow
(5,025 posts)Whatever
He became fond of that response himself before he died.
madokie
(51,076 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)madokie
(51,076 posts)Not much worries me but religion of any kind is at the top of what list I do have
brooklynite
(94,745 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)And gained control.
There would be little difference between that and extremist Islam.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)You think the folks who long for the days of Ozzie and Harriet are no different than folks who would have you living under sharia law?
I don't want to go back, either, but it's ok to have a little perspective.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Yes they would.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)febrile fear mongering with an unhealthy dose of trying to stir up animosity.
ileus
(15,396 posts)There's nothing stopping Christians from being the terrorist they deep down sincerely desire to be now.
Oh wait....they're not because they're not even a miniscule percentage of Christians.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Moreover, the Bible has been around for centuries in its current form but we're supposed to reject it. Why? Because we're not supposed to believe in fairy tales that do nothing but frighten people with threats of damnation.
But let's take a two-bit sci-fi story and elevate it to the level of prophecy to justify screeds against entire groups.
All without the slightest hint of self-awareness or irony.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)It's a matter of culture more than religion in my opinion.
And American culture has changed over the centuries, re: Salem witchcraft trials.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)The only thing holding back Christian fundamentalists from pulling off shit like Paris is the LAW?
Wouldn't that make them, oh, LAW ABIDING?
Face it: it gives you agita that Islamists do this shit regularly and Christians don't follow suit. That's all that's going on here.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Thank you.
Do people still say "Snap?"
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Two Christians who have killed for that ideology, I and my family were present at the site of one of the killings only 24 hours before the deadly bomb blast.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)The laws they would impose against all that were not male and straight would be harsh as hell.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)they'd behave like radical Islamists do RIGHT NOW, despite laws.
But they don't (with a comparatively rare exceptions), because of the law.
I wonder if you see the hollowness of your argument.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)That if the most extreme right wing Christians had the opportunity to form their OWN laws.
A Theocracy
Rather than being forced to live in a Constitutional Republic.
Where they have to follow those laws.
It would be mighty grim for women and many other people.
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)they seem to be doing pretty well within the law.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)They are too craven to be suicide bombers...with few exceptions like Eric Randolph and the freak that actually shot the doctor in a church.
I said if they had the power to make the laws....
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Got to make the law.
They would be just?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)So what? What does that matter?
Are you behind the front lines in the Second Civil War? Do you need a supply drop? Did 12 people get murdered in your office by Christian zealots for ridicule?
I have heard this argument before: if X got to make the laws, things would be worse. Well, they're not. And while they're not making the laws, they're comparatively docile about the ones they don't like.
Where is the beef in your argument?
Flatulo
(5,005 posts)The culture of most Middle Eastern countries is extremely patriarchal and authoritarian. Also, marrying one's cousin is common, and even one's niece, making genetic diversity less than healthy.
I'm not sure what your point is, other than religion, taken to the extreme and then mixed with the State, is a bad thing.
I'm sure glad we don't have that here.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)But of course, it's not "only" the law holding them back - it's a host of social and economic factors. None of which are necessarily permanent or guaranteed, mind you.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Fuck me to tears.
EXACTLY and ONLY are words that should be off-limits to some people.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)that wall for some time now. It needs to be shored up. Sone of the pols essentially admit that theocracy is their goal. This is not the time to be respectful of this mindset.
randr
(12,417 posts)Whenever a discussion of the responsibility Muslim states have to rein in their terrorist elements takes place, such as on Bill Mahres show, it is the lack of this separation that is never brought up. The hold religion has over state/governing functions is the problem.
ileus
(15,396 posts)No wait.....they're not and they don't.
There's nothing stopping them from doing the same thing any terrorist group does, it's not like terrorist attacks are legal ANYWHERE.
Simply put there aren't millions of Christians willing to die for their god.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)My statement was that if the extreme right wing imposed the religio lead state they want they would be just as ruthless against those they hate.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)become difficult. You say Christian right wing is comparable to Muslim right wing, and I agree. I have even posted about a terror attack in Paris against a movie done by right wing Christians offended at the portrayal of their object of worship. Very comparable.
But you keep saying 'if the right wing imposed the religio state' without addressing how they might do that here, why they have not, and why in some other countries they do in fact have religion lead states. If our extremists and theirs are very similar, but only one allows extremists to lead, this brings up many questions.
It seems to me that somehow, many countries that have extreme right wing religionists do not let them run the government and yet some others do. If the religionists are similar in both groups, then the thing preventing them from being in charge must lie in the larger culture.
If my neighbor would stone gay people but does not, and my friend's neighbor would stone gay people and does, what does this say about the two neighborhoods, if the bigoted neighbors are exactly the same?
To compare, one must also contrast. And when discussing theocracies that might be if bad people were allowed, we have to discuss theocracies that actually exist and discuss how and why that is allowed.
Or not. Depending on your agenda.
goldent
(1,582 posts)Especially like how you write EXACTLY and ONLY in caps - just to make sure everyone knows how extreme the statements are. Just a hint - I don't think the Onion uses that style.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)goldent
(1,582 posts)Seriously, it was funny.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Interesting that this gets said every time the wingnut dominionists introduce yet another law to regulate women's reproductive organs with near universal agreement from DU, but now here's this thread with a huge rush of #notallchristians and walk-back.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)My point was that if the most extreme Christians the likes of Pat Robertson and James Dobson were able to implement their dream of a US theocracy. It would be just as extreme of any other fundamentalist based bation.
libtodeath
(2,888 posts)it probably would not be a nice place to live.
This place is getting weird.
Throd
(7,208 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)When was the last time a Christian extremist murdered a number of innocent civilians in the name of their god?
Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)Ink Man
(171 posts)I think your paranoid.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)The important comparison is not "the most extreme" vs "the most extreme", it's by centiles.
There are far *more* Muslims far *more* conservative than is true for Christians.
The thing holding back the most extreme right-wing Christians, or even moderately extreme right-wing Christians, is being a tiny minority. By contrast, there are far more right-wing and far fewer left-wing Muslims, which is why there is such a strong correlation between "countries with awful far-right governments and laws and appalling human rights records" and "Muslim-majority countries".
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)I think most people in Muslim countries obey those laws in public because they are compelled to do so at fear of severe punishment or death.
There are jeans and modern dress under those drapes.
rstanleyj2918ca
(8 posts)I'd leave America if the RW fundie nuts took over the government. They'd gladly take this country back to the 19th century.
ToxMarz
(2,169 posts)It's not JUST the tax rate, they really like the social climate there.