and had we HAD one, in W and his gang's early years, imo, none of this would be happening, that is STOPPED in Afghanistan!

never occurred, it's quite likely we would not have this mess today.

I get more angry every hour, recognizing these horrific effects of those idiots. And their plan began before W's non-election.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm

http://www.salon.com/2007/10/12/wesley_clark/

are the poor innocents that get dragged into war not getting what the game is.

With the possible exception of the conscripts themselves.

Save for WWIII, we will never again see conscription in this country.

Germany used to have a draft, but you had a choice: military service or civil service.

Military service was shorter and the pay was better.

I chose civil service and worked with old and disabled people for a year. The work sucked at times and the salary... let's say it was good that I still lived at my parents. But I learned a lot in terms of medical care and household-stuff and it builds character.


It worked like this:
- A company (hospital, retirement home, social welfare organization...) would apply for the right to employ "Zivis".
- Once you get your letter from the draft office that you are allowed to choose civil service over military service, you had to apply for such a position at such a company. (I never heard of a rejection.)
- As a "Zivi", you work for the company but you get paid by the state.

I worked at a social welfare organization and mainly did household-chores for old and disabled people. For example, I was called in for one-time cleaning jobs a few times.
I knew a guy who worked at a hospital and his job was bring goods and patients from A to B.



Germany got rid of the draft a few years after my service. And with the military draft, the civil service also died. Maybe the military doesn't mind getting rid of inexperienced and unmotivated recruits, but I know that Germany lost an important piece of culture when the "Zivildienst" ceased to be.

The late Colonel Hackworth's thoughts on it:

"Even when they pissed me off, I had to admit there was something I liked about the draftees who didn't want to be there and made no bones about it. I like draftees in general, even with the attendant problems. Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price of admission." - Colonel Hackworth, About Face

Americans who are not prowar are lovable, you gotta admit. And they are in a hurry to get home to see a ball game. Wrap it up and get the hell out of there. No nation-building for these guys.

Of the people that apply. In modern times there are so many ways to avoid military service a draft would be a joke. Obesity, bad credit, criminal record, and tattoo placement are the top disqualifies these days, someone could get out of it pretty quick under the current minimum requirements.

If the kids of the rich are the ones being sent off to war, you can be damn sure we won't be fighting any.

I think one could simply test positive on a drug test for smoking a joint and pretty much be disqualified for at least a year under the current guidelines. Of course, this would probably change if they were in need of more cannon fodder.

A few years back, some general was complaining that kids were too fat for military service and encouraging them to get in shape in case the military needed them to fight. What a joke! "Hey kids, we need you to start slimming down in case we need to draft you for our next Vietnam. Snap to it!"

What happened to all the talk about lowering
eligibility and giving exemptions for petty offenses?

80% sounds kinda extraordinary?

The current young generation is the most unfit in American history.

http://cdn.missionreadiness.org/NATEE1109.pdf

Go fuck yourself, Charlie.

Slavery is illegal.

regardless of age or medical condition. No exceptions or exemptions.

...before they get to drag other mothers' sons off to be killed or maimed in war.

the US killed well over 100,000 Iraqis, destroyed Iraq's social and physical infrastructure, built black sites for purposes of torture, carpet bombed Falluja? How about when the US droned Pakistani, Yemeni, Somali, ..., villages? Taking out wedding parties, funerals, and inventing the infamous "double tap signature drone strike"? How about when the US took out Libya's "strong man" in a regime change operation, then let it all go to hell except for the oilfields? How about when, "leading from behind", the US continued the identical PNAC program (now led by HRC, and Kerry) and created "Friends of Syria" with the intent to bring in "regime change" in Syria, and with the Saudi and Qatari royals and help from Turkey funded "moderate rebels" indistinguishable from ISIS then ... shock! wondered where ISIS came from, where it got it's weapons, its funding, it's expertise?

Or are you just scared when a target in "the west" is attacked? Is only "terror" when white people are targeted?

Are you truly onside with ramping up the US's decades old "War on Terror", and do you realize how many decades the US has been attacking Iraq? What exactly has the US gotten out of it so far, that you want to double-down on the ultra-conservative PNAC plans?

I wondered why no one seemed to care about the thousands killed in Iraq and it was in my mind that some day, we were going to suffer for what we did there.

Some day seems to have come.

And I don't want the draft to to ever come. I heard Charlie talk about it a couple of months ago, and he's still for it. He makes sense, but it makes me nervous.

And it's not the west that's getting attacked...you haven't noticed Syria, Iraq and Jordon have been targeted...Nigeria is also an Islamic terrorist group, but they kill women, but not all do. Pakistan is touchy, Afghanistan is not settled. Iran is getting warmer to us, but no love there yet.

They still have more killing there than we will ever have here, unless they get hold of some planes and bombs.

Not for PNAC plans, McCain and his buddy scare me, Hillary too...

I think armies are for defense, not nation-building, or oil protection, and ours has been misused to the point that we are hated and may need Charlie's army for defense one day ....I think Obama felt that way till he was criticized for not stepping into Syria sooner.. What to do, what to do?

How?

Yes, I noticed that the PNAC program targeted Syria and Iraq. That's what the US plan for "regime change" is!
Who do you think is *leading* this program?
Why do you say "Islamic terror", and not US terror?
Are you blind?

You're blaming the victims of US war crimes.

just not happy about it. We put a lot of money into defending some allies in an amount that is disproportionate to what we give other countries who are truly poor. PNAC was written by Republicans and I think Netanyehu had something to do with it. I know he has no love for any country surrounding him, nor they for Israel. Didn't PNAC decide that Saddam had to go?

I have to read up on that more. All I know is the AC stands for American Century, which is a misnomer. Republican century is more like it.

Islamic "terror" is several kinds. What they have in common is their hatred for the West, mostly the US. They hate our life style, and they hate our prejudice against their way of dress and our lack of regard for the Prophet.

Some hate what we did to Iraq and the people our troops killed under orders. Others hate those who have luxuries and live in poverty. Some hate each others' Islam religion. Sadam was hated by more than half his country. The Kurds are reasonable. Boko Haram is a mystery to me.

Our troops are superior soldiers. Many are career and don't mind a long war, especially with high rank. Contractors make a fortune compared to enlisted men and they're not anxious to end it all and come home. But they are all just following orders.

If you know how to solve these problems, let us all at DU know. Waiting.....

but the first step might be for the people of the USA to be a little more reflective and honest about their role.

In the USA's illegal and immoral war of choice against Iraq, it wasn't "thousands killed", it was over 100 thousand, and even more maimed and the country was destroyed. Iraq's schools, hospitals, electrical grid, roads and bridges destroyed. Their cities destroyed. In the US's illegal and immoral "regime change" operation against Syria, begun under Obama/HRC but following the identical PNAC program as underlay the US's destruction of Iraq, Syria is being destroyed and ISIS is being armed, funded and trained either directly or through US proxies. "Moderate rebels" my ass!

The US destroyed Libya. It is conducting terror operations using drones piloted half a world away to fire hellfire missiles at "signature targets" (always called "terrorists" after the fact) in half a dozen countries in the mid-east that it isn't at war with.

You KNOW this - yet point your finger at "Islamic terrorists" as being the problem.

You seem to think you, personally, are "suffering" from some blowback. You say:
"This ISIS and AlQuida business is the biggest threat to the world that I've ever seen", and appear totally oblivious to the extent of the US criminal war enterprise in the mid-east and to the fact that the US is the *cause* of that carnage. Because that carnage doesn't impact you, and you don't identify with the arab people. Instead, you blame the victims, the people of the countries that the US destroyed and is destroying, and you want a faster and greater US military buildup over there to alleviate your fright and apprehension.

You lightly pass it off: "We put a lot of money into defending some allies" as if these illegal and immoral US wars are somehow in self-defence, and as if the US under both Republican and Democratic administrations isn't the leader and motivator for all of those wars, and as if the Republican and Democratic administrations are somehow different, as if the Democratic administration is somehow exonerated for what it is doing.

IMO your way of thinking is a product of total immersion in MSM war propaganda in service of big oil and the MIC, in service of wall street and the most cynical of politics.

except I do blame the US for its Iraq disaster and the 200,000 deaths and climbing. Small wonder they hate and mistrust us.

But it remains, what do we do to get out of it? When the President attempts to leave he is criticized and when he agrees to stay, same result.

If there is an answer, what is it? Blaming me doesn't help. Nobody ever asked for my approval for the Iraq incursion. Everyone in DU was against it and the music for it when CNN showed coverage of the US entering Iraq. Cities all over the world held demonstrations against it, but our government paid no heed.

Think about the "solidarity" march in Paris. Who will they fight together? The enemy (so-called) is all over the place. We don't have enough men, and the countries involved don't have the expertise to have an army to fight their enemies. Saddam's army is what got booted out of Iraq and is causing so much trouble now and they were cruel when they lived in Iraq.

We have our share of veterans killed or suffering from loss of limbs and PT'S. Good people, as innocent as those Iraqis killed. For their sake I am patriotic, but where our government is concerned, not so much...they do what they are told to do.....thus, the spending becomes lopsided.

Howard Dean was the only politician who was honest and brave enough to protest the war, and his popularity escalated. His picture was my avatar until he recently announced his support for Clinton, which is the same as backing the PNAC. I was so disappointed that he supports the very people responsible for his loss in Iowa, which I guess was the DLC. My Senators Levin and Stabinow also voted against the war, and they now support Clinton.

One more time, what do we do now? We are on the same page as far as saying who was to blame for what's happening now, but we did not draw up the boundary lines for the countries involved.

I'm 76, and never seen us so messed up.

"This ISIS and AlQuida business is the biggest threat to the world that I've ever seen."

It comes at a time when a terrorist attack, the Charlie Hebdo killings, is getting extraordinary attention by the MSM, totally out of proportion to the attention given to the least of, say, the drone wedding party or funeral procession killings that have been fairly commonplace and that continue unabated. Killings that apparently don't matter, because they're killings of arabs and they are part of an orchestrated policy of "the civilized west", the "war on terror".

IMO your words are war propaganda. Nothing more.

it would mean a massive expansion of the military.

Makes the war mongers stop and think for maybe a nano-second.

we never seam to learn from it and keep repeating the mistake .

Atleast Rangle brings it up as a wake up call that there is no answer because war is not the answer.

They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor


Classic Ozzy...

after high school graduation.

We will lose a generation or more of young people.

real activism for a change.