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alp227

(32,034 posts)
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 01:21 PM Apr 2012

(Calif.) State bill would let non-doctors perform abortions

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)

As states across the country are passing laws to restrict access to abortion, California lawmakers are considering a significant expansion of who would be able to perform the procedure in the state.

Under a bill that passed its first committee hearing Tuesday, nurse practitioners, nurse midwives and physician assistants would be able to perform what is known as an "aspiration" abortion, which is the most common abortion procedure and takes place in the first trimester of a pregnancy.

The current form of the bill, SB1338 by Sen. Christine Kehoe, D-San Diego, would allow for only 41 people in the state, in addition to doctors, who have been through a pilot study on the issue to perform aspiration abortions, but backers say they expect that number to be significantly expanded as the proposal moves forward.

Also on Tuesday, an Assembly committee passed a separate bill that would expand access to birth control by allowing registered nurses to dispense the medication.

full: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/04/25/MN7J1O8KBT.DTL

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(Calif.) State bill would let non-doctors perform abortions (Original Post) alp227 Apr 2012 OP
I think this is a great thing. Hell Hath No Fury Apr 2012 #1
Wow. As long as they pass rigorous testing, I think this is a great step. nt msanthrope Apr 2012 #2
It's about time!! kestrel91316 Apr 2012 #3
I'm going to call this a broken clock moment Sen. Walter Sobchak Apr 2012 #4
The procedure they're talking about is right in that ballpark. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #5
And in that mishap, you probably don't want to see your whatever Sen. Walter Sobchak Apr 2012 #9
There are, or used to be, two states that allowed qualified non-doctors to do this kind of CTyankee Apr 2012 #12
Physician assistants perform vasectomies, midwives and nurse practitioners deliver babies... cynatnite Apr 2012 #6
This isn't about abortion, this is about professional responsibility. Sen. Walter Sobchak Apr 2012 #7
Procedures similar to this are done all the time by people like this in the medical field... cynatnite Apr 2012 #8
And I believe they shouldn't be. You are either a doctor - or you aren't. Sen. Walter Sobchak Apr 2012 #10
It's not that black and white... cynatnite Apr 2012 #11
Paralegals cannot handle a lawyer's workload. JDPriestly Apr 2012 #13
Are you suggesting we roll back medical care by 25-30 years? cynatnite Apr 2012 #14
I agree Mojorabbit Apr 2012 #17
Nurses give chemotherapy and anesthesia. Nurse deliver babies. McCamy Taylor Apr 2012 #15
It needs to be nationwide... cynatnite Apr 2012 #16
I would never allow a non-M.D. to perform surgery on me. BlueIris Apr 2012 #18
great idea. hope it spreads. mopinko Apr 2012 #19
 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
4. I'm going to call this a broken clock moment
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:36 PM
Apr 2012

This sounds like a terrible idea. An abortion isn't laser hair removal. Some things should just be done by a doctor.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
5. The procedure they're talking about is right in that ballpark.
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:51 PM
Apr 2012
http://women.webmd.com/manual-and-vacuum-aspiration-for-abortion
Manual vacuum aspiration procedure

Manual vacuum aspiration usually takes between 5 and 15 minutes. It can be done safely in a clinic or medical office using local anesthetic and a nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drug (NSAID), such as ibuprofen. The procedure includes:

Positioning you on the exam table in the same position used for a pelvic exam, with your feet on stirrups while you are lying on your back.
Inserting a speculum into the vagina.
Cleaning the vagina and cervix with an antiseptic solution.
Injecting a numbing medicine (local anesthetic) in the cervix.
Inserting a small instrument into the cervix to slightly open (dilate) it, if needed. In most cases, though, dilation isn't needed.
Passing a thin tube through the cervix and into the uterus. A handheld syringe is attached and used to suction the tissue out of the uterus. As the uterine tissue is removed, the uterus will contract. Most women feel cramping during the procedure. The cramps will decrease after the tube is removed. Some women also have nausea, sweating, or feel faint. But typically symptoms are less severe than with machine vacuum aspiration.

Machine vacuum aspiration procedure

Hours before or the day before a machine vacuum aspiration procedure, a cervical (osmotic) dilator may be placed in the cervix to slowly open (dilate) it. Just before, antibiotics are given to prevent infection. A medicine called misoprostol may be given to soften the cervix before the procedure.

Machine vacuum aspiration usually takes between 10 and 15 minutes. It can be done safely in a clinic or medical office under local anesthetic. The procedure includes:

Positioning you on the exam table in the same position used for a pelvic exam, with your feet on stirrups while lying on your back.
Inserting a speculum into the vagina.
Cleaning the vagina and cervix with an antiseptic solution.
Injecting a numbing medicine (local anesthetic) in the cervix. Medicine for pain or sedation, in addition to the local anesthetic, may be given by mouth or through a vein (intravenously). Vasopressin, or a similar medicine that slows uterine bleeding, may be mixed with the local anesthetic to reduce blood loss.
Grasping the cervix with an instrument to hold the uterus in place.
Opening (dilating) the cervical canal with a small instrument. Dilation reduces the risk of any injury to the cervix during the procedure.
Passing a thin, hollow tube (cannula) into the cervical canal and attaching a gentle vacuum that will draw the tissue out of the uterus. As the uterine tissue is removed, the uterus will contract. Most women feel cramping during the procedure. The cramps will decrease after the tube is removed. Some women also may have nausea or sweating or feel faint.

The tissue removed from the uterus during a vacuum aspiration procedure is examined to make sure that all of the tissue has been removed and the abortion is complete.


There is some chance of mishap and malpractice, but the same can be said regarding laser hair removal.
 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
9. And in that mishap, you probably don't want to see your whatever
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:12 PM
Apr 2012

screaming down the hallway for a real doctor and then awkwardly recalling the events up to that point to whomever rushes to the scene. Most matters of safety are planned around the outlier event because shit happens.

I know a doctor who has performed abortions, I don't see her going along with this.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
12. There are, or used to be, two states that allowed qualified non-doctors to do this kind of
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:33 PM
Apr 2012

procedure (one was VT and I can't remember the other one). They had very low rates of bad outcomes comparatively.

To get the facts, go to the experts, please. go to www.guttmacher.org for this. Guttmacher is the pre-eminent source on reproductive health issues. It is used by state and local boards of health as well as schools of public health all over this country.

I worked for several years at Planned Parenthood and consulted Guttmacher often when I needed facts and figures for my fundraising...

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
6. Physician assistants perform vasectomies, midwives and nurse practitioners deliver babies...
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:54 PM
Apr 2012

There is no reason in the world why these people cannot perform an abortion after proper training.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
7. This isn't about abortion, this is about professional responsibility.
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:08 PM
Apr 2012

Paralegals can handle most of a lawyers daily workload, do we let them? Absolutely not.

Why? Because the buck stops somewhere and is a serious mistake were made placing blame on a paralegal isn't going to fly with anyone. As it would not fly here.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
8. Procedures similar to this are done all the time by people like this in the medical field...
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:12 PM
Apr 2012

I can rattle off a lengthy list of medical procedures more complicated than an abortion...childbirth is one.

They also carry medical malpractice insurance as well. They are required to by law.

With the amount of procedures they already perform, there is no reason they can't do it. I've assisted on a variety of procedures that are done by both physician assistants and nurse practitioners.

They are trained and held responsible for whatever they do. Also, they are licensed to practice under physicians. The law holds them to as high of a standard as physicians.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
11. It's not that black and white...
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:26 PM
Apr 2012

Doctor's cannot be everywhere and there is not enough of them to go around. The answer to helping the patients so they won't die is by training medical personnel to handle those procedures and care that a physician does not have to.

These are procedures that a doctor does not have to perform. Licensed PA's and NP's are fully qualified and licensed by the state medical boards to perform these. They don't just hand them out. They have to undergo rigorous testing and training.

The only way I think you would ever understand is to spend some time working with doctors, PA's and NP's. Once you see their professionalism, dedication and how good they truly are, then maybe your attitude might change.

Keep in mind, these kinds of procedures are done by PA's and NP's daily in thousands of hospitals all over the world and in the US. It's normal medical practice.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
13. Paralegals cannot handle a lawyer's workload.
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:34 PM
Apr 2012

They are not prepared to make the decisions that lawyers make or to advise clients as lawyers are prepared to do. Unless a paralegal has a law degree, he or she does not have the training or experience and has not proved the ability to do that thing that you learn in law school which is -- "think like a lawyer."

I think the same is true in medicine. A doctor is trained not just to carry out procedures, not just to do the right thing at the right time, but to understand how the body works to the extent that the doctor knows why you do a certain thing at a certain time and what alternatives may be available if something goes wrong.

I agree.

I have seen what happens when a paralegal tries to do the work of a lawyer -- a terrible disaster. I would not want someone who did not have a medical degree as well as experience in residency performing certain procedures on me.

I think that nurses are doing too much already. This is especially true of those who prescribe medicines. A nurse should not decide whether a patient should take birth control pills or not. They are not appropriate for every case. They aren't candy.

This is an irresponsible proposal.

cynatnite

(31,011 posts)
14. Are you suggesting we roll back medical care by 25-30 years?
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 03:39 PM
Apr 2012

Nurse practitioners, midwives, physician assitants have been doing medical procedures and prescribing meds for a lot of years now. They are a part of the medical community and work hand-in-hand with physicians.

They have to carry malpractice insurance, are licensed by state boards, and are subject to the same laws that physicians are.

How do you solve the problem of lack of doctors? What about patient overload?

The medical community has to provide care. How do you solve that?

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
17. I agree
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:02 PM
Apr 2012

I am a retired RN and as part of my GYN training in the 70s assisted with abortions. The procedure is not that difficult but I would not want to pay the liability insurance on that. There is a risk of post procedure complications though I think they are rare.. There is a reason GYN docs have huge malpractice insurance rates. But that is just me.

McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
15. Nurses give chemotherapy and anesthesia. Nurse deliver babies.
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:37 PM
Apr 2012

No reason they can not do an abortion. When I was doing Gyn ER I was taught how to do a D&C after a woman miscarries in the first trimester. It was basically see one, do one, teach one. An abortion is the exact same thing. Anyone who can do a Pap smear (which nurses do all the time, along with colposcopy and cryotherapy of the cervix and endometrial biopsy) can do an abortion.

Oh man, this is going to make Right to Life's head explode.

BlueIris

(29,135 posts)
18. I would never allow a non-M.D. to perform surgery on me.
Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:27 PM
Apr 2012

I really hope any patient who must work with a non-M.D. to terminate pregnancy is properly informed about the credentials of the provider she is working with.

mopinko

(70,132 posts)
19. great idea. hope it spreads.
Thu Apr 26, 2012, 11:52 AM
Apr 2012

this is a simple procedure, and with so many being hounded out of the business of doing abortions, badly needed.

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