then its hate speech

This guy is worse than David Duke.

clearly, when we disagree we can start seeing shades of gray in free speech.

and used the Nazi salute.

His stuff falls under the "never again" rule and I don't blame Europe from banning attempts to launch campaigns of genocide.

That is quite a bit different from blasphemy.

There's enough violence against Jews from his fan base that he incites to violence. His popularity in France is a recruiting bonanza for Bibi in his attempts to get Jews to abandon France.

Attempts to kindle a 4th reich are inherently dangerous.

What he advocates is indeed odious, I agree.

But let's not pretend we are for "free speech" when one's freedom to do so depends on what one is saying.

He "used the Nazi salute".... so banning gestures also falls outside the bounds of "free speech", yes?

to incite genocide are not comparable, certainly given the continent's history with Jews.

It is okay for the US and Europe to have different approaches.

"Never again" means a lot more over there than it does here.

And very few people understand the specific context of this cartoon.

What does this image suggest?



"The Koran is shit. It doesn't stop bullets."

Okay with a Torah and a Jew? Or not okay? And if you think there is a difference to be had there, what is it?

Dieudonne was celebrating a guy who shot up a bunch of shoppers because they were Jews.

And no, it was not celebrating it. It was treating it as a bad thing, against which a holy book was worthless.

You're actively misrepresenting things now.

it happened and that their god did not protect them.

There is no such ambiguity with Dieudonne.

Try again.

Last edited Sat Jan 17, 2015, 09:30 AM - Edit history (1)

Prove me wrong.

French Islamists have sued satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo for blasphemy in Strasbourg for publishing a cover page with the headline: "The Koran is shit – it doesn't stop bullets."

The League of Judicial Defence of Muslims (LDJM) led by former lawyers Karim Achoui, has brought the case before the criminal court in Alsace-Moselle's capital.

The region, which was annexed by Germany in 1871 and 1940-45, still retained part of the old German code that includes the "blasphemy" crime – which no longer exist in the rest of France.

The LDJM has also sued Charlie Hebdo in Paris for "provocation and incitement to hatred on the basis of religious affiliation and insult".

and thus the parody "The Coran is shit, it doesn't stop bullets"

knowing that he started his career in partnership with his best friend from childhood -- a jew. and they were partners into the 90s.

the poster made the claim, why should I have to find the (apparently non-existent) evidence for her claim?


btw:

Dieudonné M'bala M'bala (born 11 February 1966), was born in Fontenay-aux-Roses, Hauts-de-Seine, France. He is the son of a retired sociologist from Brittany, who is also a painter and exhibits under the name Josiane Grué, and an accountant from Ekoudendi, Cameroon. He attended Catholic school, though his mother was a New Age Buddhist.

Performing career

After getting his baccalaureate in computer science, Dieudonné began writing and practicing routines with his childhood friend, Jewish comedian and actor Élie Semoun. They formed a comedic duo, Élie et Dieudonné, and performed in local cafés and bars while Dieudonné worked as a salesman... In the 1990s, they appeared on stage and on television together as "Élie et Dieudonné". In 1997 they split and each went on to a solo theater career. In 1998, they reunited in a screen comedy, Le Clone...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dieudonn%C3%A9_M'bala_M'bala

The same people who decry any censorimg of their own opinions support imprisoning people for expressing theirs.

The difference between the Islamist fundamentalists and these folks is the degree to which they will punish you for speaking. Imprisonment is a more appropriate punishment than death for speech crime, at least in their minds.

The founders saw these types from a mile away. Thank fuck for the First Amendment

guys are all just fine with it.

he's been arrested multiple times.

the people who get arrested and jailed are arabs and muslims.

I just wanted to point out that the prosecution of speech is more widespread than one man.

kind of like how the free-thinking 'charlie' editor regularly ran anti-muslim editorials and fired two staffers who took issue with his anti-arab policies.

"Free speech" directed against groups of people who are who they are as a birthright because of something they are powerless to change (like skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation) is hate speech.

"Free speech" directed at the sillier aspects of any belief system is fair game.

Get it? The line exists between living people and abstract ideas, at least in France.

Here it's more of an absolute, so hate speech is right out in the open where we can keep an eye on it in case it starts exhorting people to violence against their neighbors, at which point it becomes inciting riot and is actionable.

because i dont think it does.

more over since we are all in the US discussing this in the US context of free speech, my comment is pertinent. what we don't agree with is very easily justified into hate speech.

And you can't get much lower than the Charlie cartoons which are utterly despicable. You really should take a closer look at the bastion of liberté you're defending. I'd post a few but I can guarantee you they'd be immediately hidden.

Yes I see how these two events are equivalent now

. . . I am hard pressed to call them 'satire.' Crude, vulgar mocking that makes no larger point, that is calculated to offend for the sake of offending, is far from my definition of 'satire.'

It's the 11 million people murdered by the Nazis.
And there's a huge difference between a satirical magazine and what this guy does.

However the murder of 11 million or so people occurred in Europe, not here.
There's a history there.

that Jews in Paris have?

No. France is committed to making its Jewish citizens safe. That means not tolerating the first steps of anti-Jewish genocidalists.

France has to find a way to make sure a Muslims and Jews can live together.

They have made a very rational calculation that the right of Jews to leave in peace instead of terror and being driven out of France is worth muzzling the Nazis and their ilk.

Incitement doesn't need to work on everyone. If it inspires .1% to violence that's unacceptably high and merits proscription.

There is practically zero violence and conflict between Jews and Muslims here.

Because here Muslim Americans see themselves as being of the same loyalty as American Jews.

A great many (OBVIOUSLY NOT ALL OR EVEN MOST) French Muslims see French Jews as enemies in a holy war that transcends national boundaries and stretches from Toulouse to Jenin.

That is a problem they have that we do not.

Are you intentionally conflating the two?

I said stereotyping and incitement are different things.

You seem to have missed the point.

One image is a Charlie Hebdo cover.

The other image is a take-off on the Charlie Hebdo cover, which, in all likelihood comes from some horribly anti-Semitic site.

The two are posted for comparison because:

1. The one showing Muslims being shot by Egyptians in Tahrir Square is "free speech".

2. The one showing a Holocaust victim being gassed is "illegal speech".

Yes it is a "fake" cover. That's the POINT. It is a hypothetical intended to point out a double standard when it comes to "free expression".

Last edited Sat Jan 17, 2015, 09:07 AM - Edit history (1)

incitement or hatred, depending on the religious target of the alleged speaker....the hate speech prohibition has to be consistent, other wise what is the principle of law being defended?

To me the French do not have all the answers but they have historical experience, Anit-Semitism is a huge problem as is anti-Islam and anti-Roma, so I have to give them a pass and let Justice take its course in a court of law, not the court of public opinion..... he is going to have an actual trial, not a media one.
I think he will be acquitted, the individual single charge, not his reputation, is going to be on trial.

people divided, the better for others to subjugate and rule them.

just part of the ongoing divide and conquer

the guy is an asshole, but his words really do not rise to hate speech "je suis Coulibaly' is really anti-semitic but not hate speech.

Do you think that a statement like that is hate-speech or inciting violence?

Fifteen people were gunned down by the Klan and Neo-Nazis...four died in the street holding their protest signs, another never recovered, dying in a hospital, and others were paralyzed by their wounds...because they dared to say, "Death to the Klan".

Oddly enough, no member of the Ku Klux Klan nor the American Nazi Party was ever found guilty for these five murders.

humor of the French and shouldn't even try.

I imagine that applies to their attitudes toward bad speech too.

they're unique, don't ya know. we lesser beings simply can't understand them.

Pretty much just hates Jews.

attempts to exterminate Jews. I can't say I blame them.

And, in this latest arrest, it wasn't an anti-semitic statement, so you are dodging what he, and others in the story, have actually been arrested for doing.

In other words:

OKAY IN FRANCE:

A cover showing a Muslim being shot to death, and the Koran is no help:




NOT OKAY IN FRANCE:

A cover showing a Jew being gassed to death, and the Talmud is no help:



I believe both images are offensive, but I can certainly understand how this has nothing to do with getting Jews and Muslims to live together peacefully, and is a double standard.

shot up a bunch of Jews because they were Jews. He is trying to turn a mass-murdering Jew-hating bigot into a folk hero amongst the country's Muslim youth. That is far worse than a fucking cartoon. That is actually dangerous.

Note that the violence between Muslims and Jews in France is not reciprocal. It flows in one direction--from the numerous against the few.

Your priority is protecting the right of Nazis and their ilk to incite violence and harassment of Jews over protecting the Jewish community. France is not incorrect in disagreeing with you.

in a French affair.

Nazi propaganda and incitement helped kill millions. Speech that helps kill millions is not worthy of protection.

And again the false equivalency between insulting a religious figure and inciting murder and genocide. Not the same thing, not operationally, not morally.

Last edited Fri Jan 16, 2015, 05:59 PM - Edit history (1)

Skokie has a high Jewish population.

That's why the Nazis wanted to march there.

You do not seem to understand that France was INVADED by the Germans in WWII. France did not become part of Germany during that time voluntarily.

Let's go back and look at the statement for which this guy was arrested. He wasn't "inciting" jack shit.

But you are saying that because the Germans committed atrocities against Jews, then Nazi speech should "morally" be banned in some OTHER country where that didn't happen - i.e. France; which is different from the United States in some manner which you have not defined.

Do you know which side of WWII France was on?

And if this is a "moral" imperative, then I had no idea that something as fundamental as what is "morally" wrong depends on what side of the Atlantic Ocean one is on.

And let's not even get into Dreyfus etc.

I do not think the US has the market cornered on wisdom, and that we know what is good for Europe more than they do.

So we have to wait for another 11 million bodies to be stacked up over some new bullshit before saying, "Hmmm... Maybe that wasn't a good idea."

in the banlieus are so damn powerful. because there are so many of them!!!!

sounds familiar.

Or you can prove me wrong. Ever heard of photoshop?

OMFG. Why do I even bother?

Mass killings are funnier there?

Yes, it is making light of a massacre of a group of unarmed people. Ha ha!

Please read my other posts in the thread. I already pointed out it was about the killing of Muslim Brotherhood supporters in Tahrir Square.

What do you think the image says to people who are unaware of that hi-larious comedic context?

and have their very small niche market magazine posted all over the internets by people who don't speak French and have no idea that Charlie Hebdo is a radical left wing satire magazine.

"Charb"'s funeral was today, it was on the French news. Dude was a communist for Christ's sake. They played some Communist anthem at his funeral.

Oh fuck it.

I won't continue to waste my time defending Charlie Hebdo's left wing creds to DU, it's hopeless. Y'all need your outrage fix and you'll get it from whatever source suits your purpose, not matter how absurd. I'll just state clearly for the record that Charlie Hebdo was against all forms of racism, classism, sexism, religious authoritarianism, and cretinism.

Taken out of context, I could turn anyone into whatever filthy thing I chose and then post it all over the internet, especially after they're DEAD and unable to defend themselves. I could search DU, take any 5 sentences you've written out of their context, and turn you into a wife-beater.

What is even more ironic is that Charb and Tignous and company were assassinated by an Islamist terrorist, the guys that Dieudonné thinks are just peachy, because they are going ahead and "taking care of the Jewish problem".

Whoa take that phrase out of context, and Pooka Fey is AN ANTI-SEMITE

Nuance ALERT. Put on your thinking cap now. Dieudonné is being questioned (he has been taken in for questioning, all you non-French speakers btw) for appearing to publicly support a terrorist attack. He has not been convicted of anything, and HE MAY NOT BE.

Charb is not alive to defend himself, but he was so left-wing he makes everyone on DU look like a Wing-Nut. That means you.