this is fucking insane! Do any of those god damn assholes have the brains god give a flea? What next? Breeding age kept in cages under 24/7 surveillance?

I feel the as you do dale.

I've had family and friends lose children and to think of the police coming to the hospital....


Literally shaking with rage.

My sister lost one. Ectopic pregnancy. She bought books to understand and she mourned the loss of her child.

You are welcome and sorry for the misspelling. Hugs to you and yours dale.

And three miscarriages.

Police coming to the hospital at that time to question me at that time would have ended with my husband and possibly my mother in jail.

That poor girl.

And yet, we're moving in that direction too.

where were they to 'stop' this from happening. Its hatred against women and the property rights of men to own not only them but their 'issue'. Read up on southern slavery. Same idea.

Indian, Sri Lankan & Pakistani friends I know well. It's no stranger to European culture either. Patriarchy & hierarchy worldwide rule in this neoliberal, ultraconservative & reactionary Global Corporate Gilded Age 2.0.

They claim murder.

How can they look at themselves in the mirror everyday.

Could you imagine the rightwingers doing that in this Country? Get enough of them to support the legislation and it could happen here.

The results would be, either armed revolt or women going on strike,...no sex whats so ever.
(Unless its lesbian sex, than no problem.)

We have 5 children, but there was a time that we lost 3 pregnancies in 4 years after my wife underwent an emergency C-section delivery on our first daughter in 1998. These were intensely personal losses for us, and truth be told much harder for my wife because I was not as emotionally invested in early pregnancies because I could not feel them or bond with them the way she could and did.

My wife suffered a great deal with each of the miscarriages. Emotionally, it was devastating and she still feels the affects decades later. It was a very dark period in our marriage and lives from 1998 to 2003; but luckily enough for us, we were able to have children again.

The fact that people ANYWHERE in the world are subjected to public humiliation and incarceration on top of the emotional devastation is a human rights violation of the highest order. The bastards that voted to enact such laws - whether enforced or not - should be rounded up and put into solitary confinement until they recognize the inhumanity of their actions.

Was not yet legal in Illinois, and due to the fact that the resident in charge of emergency care the night I arrived at the ER, hemorrhaging almost to death, well, that resident was afraid to admit me.

The reason for his reluctance? Under Illinois law, a woman who aborted her fetus could cause any attending doctor to lose his license, and any hospital that admitted such a woman could also lose its license.

And it is often hard for an ER doctor to determine who has and who has not induced a miscarriage.

I was not "guilty" of any type of deliberate abortion; I was simply miscarrying. But this resident could not handle the idea of being responsible (possibly) for his hospital losing its license.

Luckily my mom intervened and got my childhood pediatrician to have me admitted to a South Side Chicago hospital. I was probably only hours away from dying.

This event radicalized me in terms of abortion.

Young girls being treated worse than livestock. Damn it to hell.

This is not limited to places we can choose to ignore.

Women's rights are being taken from them ALL over the world. And we sure as hell are no exception here in the US. That is why we say there is a war, an assault on women. It has been going on for a long time and it is getting worse!

n/t

I really almost cannot believe this it is so insane, but obviously it is happening. This has nothing to do with protecting fetuses and everything to do with controlling women.

I also want to go ballistic.

It's an act of war against women....or, excuse me, ANOTHER in a long line of them.

And rarely does anyone have much to say about it. Certainly doesn't inspire massive calls for justice.

I am at the ballistic level myself.

Thinking of that poor woman stuck in prison for three decades!! Meanwhile, men get away less, or nothing in the way of punishment, for all sorts of crimes. It is revoltingly misogynistic.

politicians have no soul on the right.

my cousin had one and someone I know on the right had 1 or 2 and so did her sister yet they'd vote for people that would put them in prison smh

Utah, Georgia & Kansas all tried to make having miscarriage a crime (Google "state criminalizes miscarriage&quot because we sneaky deceptive women might actually be trying to get around anti-choice legislation and hide the despicable deed by pretending miscarriage. This is the coming theocracy just practicing...

Wow

It's the fastest growing religion there.

Meaning, it isn't Evangelicals who are doing it. Note that abortion is illegal in many Catholic countries. You know, led by that amazing guy, the Pope? But we're not supposed to talk about it, because that might hurt someone's feelings.

Religions: Roman Catholic 57.1%, Protestant 21.2%, Jehovah's Witnesses 1.9%, Mormon 0.7%, other religions 2.3%, none 16.8% (2003 est.)

And I would recall our ambassador to El Salvador along with all US personnel in that country and shutter our embassy.

EDIT: I've created a petition with the White House calling for that to be done.

http://wh.gov/i4JGs

"Do you think your country can run without any electricity?"

However, I wish you would capitalize the title of your petition.

Should publically shame the El Salvador Court system, one Catholic to another.

He is in Asia even though it is a months long case. He SEEMS like he would do something if he knew.

Do you personally know him?

The Pope has already doubled down on women not being ordained and gay marriage being a threat to traditional marriage. He may talk about the poor, but he is not going to change the second class status of women and LGBTQs ever.

There are many Catholic countries where abortion is not legal. The Church doesn't give a shit if women die. These are just last year.

http://gawker.com/5960436/woman-in-ireland-dies-after-being-denied-abortion-was-told-this-is-a-catholic-country

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/04/baby-el-salvador-woman-abortion-dies

That is why we need to get religion OUT of our government. Out of the Supreme Court. Out of our private lives!!!

.....he sometime surprises. Last week he encouraged mothers to go ahead and breast feed their babies in the Vatican if they needed to. Breasts! In the Vatican! Oh My!

Yesterday he said Catholics should do family planning and limit their number of children and not feel they need to be "like rabbits" to be good Catholics. Of course---he said it shouldn't be birth control by "artificial means"---but he went on to say, that the planet needs us to control the population.

He is ever so carefully dragging the Church into a more progressive, (more genuinely Christian) stance---this poor woman seems just like his kind of issue.

Since El Salvador is a religious State, regardless of our horror about it, he could get her 30 years reduced.

The breastfeeding part is pretty traditional, as in traditional roles for women. Motherhood still fits into one of the few roles that women are allowed to be without being labeled a slut or burnt at the stake, you know, like The Inquisition.

When asked if he would revisit the question of women being ordained, he flatly said no. He is no feminist. He just has some really, really good PR because the Church has decided it is losing money.

a miscarriage is "god's will". How can a priest deny the "sanctity" of that? To the Pope i can see how a woman seeking an abortion would be very different from one who happens to miscarry. My wife's miscarriage was a horrific experience. No way would ANYONE wish that upon themselves. The ordination of women is an entirely different subject and not so easy to "politically parse". Ugh.

How could anyone possibly hold the miscarriage against the woman having it? Wrong on so many levels....

...I hope your shoe-kissing can happen in Rome!

But you're right, he's tragically and harmfully retrograde.

I get a little a little too hopeful around the edges because he actually speaks up for the poor, against income disparity and for protecting the environment.

progress of the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s that I saw. It's worse worldwide. Neoliberal ultraconservatism is effectively driving the world backwards, economically and socially, and it's a horror.

a few months ago. They interviewed a doctor from El Salvador and he said it was terrible. He could not practice medicine properly because of the anti abortion laws. He had to watch his patients die if they had toxic or problematic pregnancies. The fetus was more important than the living mother. They also reported on Guadalupe's story. Hideous.

The fetus is so much more important than the mother, that they have to watch her die. Too many tears here.

(The Savior, My Ass!)

We also need to change the laws. Women should not be going to jail for miscarriage. How sick is that?

It sucks. It sucks like domestic violence sucks. Sucks really isn't a strong enough word for it.

I used to give my discretionary money to Planned Parenthood. They are a powerful force in fighting asshole legislation. But after I stumbled across NNAF (the link above, for those just tuning in) I decided to put my money into my local abortion fund.

It really struck home that having the right to an abortion is fairly meaningless when you can't afford one. We were nearly in that position almost 30 years ago. So I choose to trust that my donation would be slightly missed by PP, but greatly welcomed by my local fund. It was interesting educating the volunteer callers from PP looking for donations as to where I'm putting my money instead.

In any case, we do need to fight to change the laws. AND we need to provide real help while we are waiting for the laws to change.

I gave regularly to PP, until they sold my info. Yes, so far the organizations now asking me for money are progressive and global, but dammit -- how dare PP profit from my generosity? If I want to, and am able to, I'll give to whom I choose. Otherwise, leave me the F alone!! PP phone calls have stopped, but not snail mail or email. <sigh> So NARAL and NNAF get my little bit of money now.

K&R

This is an outrage. This woman should not be in jail at all. This is a miscarriage of justice. Where's the justice in this? I don't want this to happen in the USA or any other place!

I'm glad I don't live in El Salvador.

look what states are doing. Look at that chart.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

It is a war ON WOMEN.

for even a photo Op, Sid.

He doesn't give a shit. I mean, think about it? They are just women after all. They are breeders, not real people.

American interference and all that.

Hush now, Sid, your criticism might hurt their feelings.

the loudest about SHARIA LAW OVERTAKING THE USA!!1!1! are the ones who have wet dreams about bringing this kind of thing to America in the name of "pro-life".

I can't copy the chart, please go here.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/health/fetal-homicide-state-laws.aspx

as long as it's the right [i/]religion.

We need to get rid of them as quickly as we can.

(Yes, I know it's not the US, so they aren't technically ReThugs, but they're the same sort of people as our ReThugs -- wanting to reduce women to sex slaves for the male overlords.)

See here and then read the rest. Two countries same laws.

Full-Coverage Unborn Victim States (29)

(States With Homicide Laws That Recognize Unborn Children as Victims Throughout the Period of Pre-natal Development)

Alabama: Legislation taking effect July 1, 2006 (HB 19) amended Section 13A-6-1 of the Code of Alabama to include “an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability” as a “person” and “human being” for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault.

Alaska: Alaska Statutes 11.41 (as amended by Senate Bill 20, enacted June 16, 2006) establishes the crimes of “murder of an unborn child,” “manslaughter of an unborn child,” “criminally negligent homicide of an unborn child,” and “assault of an unborn child.” Alaska Statutes 11.81.900(b) defines “unborn child” as “a member of species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb.”

Arizona: The “unborn child in the womb at any stage of its development” is fully covered by the state’s murder and manslaughter statutes. For purposes of establishing the level of punishment, a victim who is “an unborn child shall be treated like a minor who is under twelve years of age.” Senate Bill 1052, signed into law on April 25, 2005, amending the following sections of the Arizona Revised Statutes: 13-604, 13-604.01, 13-703, 13-1102, 13-1103, 13-1104, 13-1105, 13-4062, 31-412, 41-1604.11 and 41-1604.13.

Arkansas: Effective in August, 2013, the killing of an “unborn child” is capital murder, murder in the first degree, murder in the second degree, manslaughter, or negligent homicide. Ark. Stat. Ann. § 5-1-102(13)(b)(i)(a), read with Ark. Stat. Ann. §§ 5-10-101 to 5-10-105. (A separate Arkansas law makes it a battery to cause injury to a woman during a Class A misdemeanor to cause her to undergo a miscarriage or stillbirth, or to cause injury under conditions manifesting extreme indifference to human life and that results in a miscarriage or stillbirth. Ark. Stat. Ann. § 5-13-201 (a)(5)(a).) Until August, 2013, “unborn child” was defined as a fetus of 12 weeks or older, but Act 1032 of the 2013 Regular Session (SB 417) changed the definition to “offspring of human beings from conception until birth.”

More By State http://www.nrlc.org/federal/unbornvictims/statehomicidelaws092302/

Why is a mis-carriage illegal there, and ejaculation is not?

... my granny would have had to be in prison for a very long time, because she had two miscarriages and in one pregnancy, she had full-term stillborn twins! One child lived to age 11 and only two survived to adulthood.

This is a horrendous unjust law from the effing dark ages.

...inadequate adjective. I can't think of one bad enough to fit this.

In Alabama, a teen either needs parental consent or court approval to get an abortion. Under this new law, when that teen goes to court, the court will appoint an attorney for the fetus, to advocate against the abortion.

The Daily Show recently made fun of this law:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/daily-show-examines-attorneys-for-fetuses-in-alabama/

I was so sickened by this law I really couldn't laugh.

Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy.

Through no "fault" of the mother. Men, particularly the ones who make the laws, have no knowledge of the workings of a woman's body and therefore should not be allowed to make laws concerning women's bodies.

With miscarriage rates at 50%, we'll have to build a lot more prisons.

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Illinois' fetal homicide law applies to someone other than the mother who, during the commission of a crime, causes the death of a fetus. The excerpted portion of the article in the OP seems to imply otherwise.

Like "Unborn Victims of Crime Acts"

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=171ab1e2-a77b-4791-a646-0ebc27512b9a

Fetal homicide laws are not the answer

Margaret Somerville ("New life matters, Nov. 6) and others in these pages have called for legal recognition for fetuses when pregnant women are murdered, which has occurred five times in Canada since 2004. The victims and families of such horrific tragedies deserve our deepest sympathy. However, creating a "fetal homicide" law that would allow murder charges to be laid for the death of a fetus would be an unconstitutional infringement on women's rights, and would likely result in harms against pregnant women.

When pregnant women are assaulted or killed, it's a domestic violence issue and it's well known that violence against women increases during pregnancy. What we need are better measures to protect women in general, and pregnant women in particular, from domestic violence. A "fetal homicide" law would completely sidestep the issue of domestic abuse and do nothing to protect pregnant women.

Canadian women have guaranteed rights and equality, while fetuses do not. Legally speaking, it would be extremely difficult to justify compromising women's established rights in favour of the theoretical rights of fetuses. The Supreme Court has ruled (in Dobson vs. Dobson, 1999) that a womanandher fetusareconsidered "physically one" person under the law. Separating a woman from her fetus under the law creates a harmful, adversarial relationship between a woman and her fetus. For example, if pregnant women are threatened with arrest for abusing drugs, they are less likely to seek pre-natal care.

...

In the U.S., pregnant women have been arrested even under fetal protection laws that exempt the pregnant woman herself from prosecution. That's because a law that recognizes fetal rights creates a confusing legal contradiction. If a fetus has the right not to be "murdered" in the womb by a third party, why doesn't it have the right not to be "murdered" by its own mother? In practice, these contradictory laws create a dangerous slippery slope towards criminalizing pregnant women for their behaviours while pregnant.



In Canada, the judicial system routinely takes aggravating circumstances into account. In the case of an assault or murder of a pregnant woman, even though a third party cannot be charged separately with harm to the fetus, prosecutors may recommend more serious charges, judges may impose harsher penalties and parole boards may deny parole to convicted perpetrators.

As I read the excerpt in the OP, there seemed to be an implication that IL's fetal homicide law bore some analogous connection to the situation in El Salvador, when that is clearly not the case.

Peace.

Good post! Again, my sole intention in posting was to make clear that IL's statute in no way whatsoever criminalize anything done by the mother; in fact, the IL courts have consistently ruled that this statute does not apply to anyone except a third party whose criminal act or acts cause(s) the death of a fetus.

Lest anyone think, "well *that one* is OK". It's not.


I'm addition, just because it hasn't stuck to the wall yet, doesn't mean the anti choicers will stop throwing shit. One of these days it could stick.

Interestingly, Illinois was the first state to try to convict a pregnant woman for manslaughter of her fetus. The grand jury refused to indict, but they try.

We're that sane 'island of blue' between the coasts.

I'm just up north in WI and lived in the Cook/DuPage County suburbs for about 14 years.

Downstate is far more conservative, of course, but it will never have a large enough population to cancel out Chicago. Since you're that close to us, you know that Rauner's election was a protest/anomaly, rather than a political 'sea change'. The Legislature retained its Democratic super majorities.

I am intimately familiar with the abortion rights in both of our states. I have used and helped others obtain services from both. We have required counseling, waiting periods, parental notification and ultrasound laws. All of those make access more expensive and far less accessible. Here on SE WI, it's often more cost effective to go to Chicago for services. And often the only choice for minors who can't go to their parents.

The people of PP there are angels.

By a bunch of pathetic RW assholes.

The "Protection of Unborn Children Act", fetal homicide, et al are pure BS.

A forced abortion or miscarriage is totally an assault against the woman, not the fetus. It should not center on the fetus at all, which is part of the woman's body. A woman's pregnancy becomes part of HER identity and personhood while she's pregnant. Laws that bypass her and give any status or protection to the fetus regardless of gestation are harmful and discriminatory against women, and devalue women as persons.

Also, I think the issue of 'choice' in this situation is a red herring. If an assaulted woman's pregnancy is unwanted - even if she gets assaulted on the way to the abortion clinic and miscarries, it's just as serious a crime as an assault against a woman with a much-wanted pregnancy.

From reading the article, there is no indication she did anything at all. My wife miscarried 3x. It's a hard enough thing, without someone deciding, without clear evidence that is was anything other than a tragic conincidence.

Geez.

This is not some left wing fantasy problem, it's exactly what the RW is trying to accomplish with all those criminalizing abortion, fetus = child, no contraception for unmarried women laws.

Damn, my family would be in serious trouble if these rules were enforced here. I had 3 miscarriages through no effort of my own, even my mom (RW christian) had a miscarriage. Would mom have gone to jail for the heartbreak of her life, if that happened today in one of the 23 states? Such a sickening thought.

I also had an abortion. I was 18, about to go to college, and my ex-boyfriend was a druggie. I was afraid of deformities, I was in no way ready to be a parent, needed to keep the abusive ex out of my life for legal, physical and sanity reasons. I would make the same decision today if faced with those same circumstances.

I also took off work 4 months while pregnant with my son, many years later. I was happily married, able to support a child and wanted him very much so was in bed all that time. I also gave up a great new job that included lots of travel to Japan, because I was very high risk and they wouldn't make an exception to the travel requirement. Luckily, my old boss let me rescind my resignation and work from home. I'd have stayed at home in bed, no matter what, I was determined to have that child.

Our bodies, our decisions - period, the end.

My heart goes out to her. I hope there will be some kind of international pressure to have her released. My gawd, even 7 years is appalling.

Don't you just love this world?

so good to hear. crying ManiacJoe.

DUer Judi Lynn posted the piece a while back. Since these women had no children and are now around 45 years old they have no support system to care for them in older age.

Unbelievable state & globally sponsored cruelty on the part of the Peruvian government, the dept. of health and a division of the UN.

In the mid to late 1990s during Clinton 300,000 poor, indigenous women were coerced into having procedures often in shabby tents erected by 'health providers'. Barbarism courtesy 'first world policy'.