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malaise

(269,045 posts)
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:08 AM Jan 2015

WikiLeaks demands answers after Google hands staff emails to US government

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/25/wikileaks-google-staff-emails-us-government
<snip>
WikiLeaks that it had handed over emails and other digital data belonging to three of its staffers to the US government, under a secret search warrant issued by a federal judge.

WikiLeaks has written to Google’s executive chairman, Eric Schmidt, to protest that the search giant only revealed the warrants last month, having been served them in March 2012. In the letter, WikiLeaks says it is “astonished and disturbed” that Google waited more than two and a half years to notify its subscribers, potentially depriving them of their ability to protect their rights to “privacy, association and freedom from illegal searches”.

The letter, written by WikiLeaks’ New York-based lawyer, Michael Ratner of the Center For Constitutional Rights, asks Google to list all the materials it provided to the FBI. Ratner also asks whether the California-based company did anything to challenge the warrants and whether it has received any further data demands it has yet to divulge.

Google revealed to WikiLeaks on Christmas Eve – a traditionally quiet news period – that it had responded to a Justice Department order to hand over a catch-all dragnet of digital data including all emails and IP addresses relating to the three staffers. The subjects of the warrants were the investigations editor of WikiLeaks, the British citizen Sarah Harrison; the spokesperson for the organisation, Kristinn Hrafnsson; and Joseph Farrell, one of its senior editors.

-------------
Hmmmmmmmm!
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WikiLeaks demands answers after Google hands staff emails to US government (Original Post) malaise Jan 2015 OP
So Wiki leaks complains about authorized leaks of their emails aikoaiko Jan 2015 #1
That's not actually wiki's complaint. Failure to disclose to the public is. merrily Jan 2015 #3
There was a gag order. randome Jan 2015 #4
Maybe to you. Who sought the order? How hard did Google fight it? How long was it in place? merrily Jan 2015 #5
Don't know. So why be outraged at Google? randome Jan 2015 #7
It's not about telling wikileaks but subscribers. And how do you form an opinion without knowing? merrily Jan 2015 #8
Again, why did Google tell them in the first place? randome Jan 2015 #11
Appealing gag orders in favor of the public's right to know is quite common. merrily Jan 2015 #14
Deeper Problem. Octafish Jan 2015 #10
Yeah, well, except for that pesky court system that keeps intruding. randome Jan 2015 #13
Not quite. Octafish Jan 2015 #25
And even judges have questioned whether they have been too cooperative with govt. merrily Jan 2015 #32
Chief Justice Roberts Is Awesome Power Behind FISA Court Octafish Jan 2015 #38
Loyalty to the administration/goverment or the Bill of Rights? Let's see, which is more important? merrily Jan 2015 #39
What does Wikifreaks think that Anybody's rights were threatened? Adrahil Jan 2015 #29
If the government has a classified warrant or FISA warrant...you think the people in the know should snooper2 Jan 2015 #41
"First, don't be evil." Suggested addendum: Second, don't be a hypocrite about being evil. merrily Jan 2015 #2
I think WL has done some good (and some harm) but their complaints are ironic, at the least. nt Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #6
Complaints on behalf of subscribers don't seem ironic to me. merrily Jan 2015 #9
I'm sure the legitimate intel assets that had their covers blown might disagree. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #16
Informing subscribers would not have changed that. merrily Jan 2015 #18
Informing subscribers would have informed wikileaks Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #23
Two and a half years? merrily Jan 2015 #24
The length of time seems immaterial. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #36
It's always material for citizens to know who is snooping on which activities of theirs. merrily Jan 2015 #37
"It's always material for citizens to know who is snooping on which activities of theirs." Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2015 #40
Please see replies 33 and 35. merrily Jan 2015 #44
"Subscribers" would be foolish to think they have privacy when affiliating with Wikileaks Renew Deal Jan 2015 #31
Because the American public almost 3 years ago was on top of this issue? And huh? merrily Jan 2015 #35
After WikiLeaks and Assanges treatment of Chelsea Manning.... NCTraveler Jan 2015 #12
How about the government's treatment of Chelsea Manning? merrily Jan 2015 #15
You got me!!!!!!!!! I fully support it!!!!!!!!! NCTraveler Jan 2015 #17
You might start with your assumption that I am the OP of this thread. I'm not. merrily Jan 2015 #19
Well then, your ommission and admission about Iraq was all in your reply. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #21
Then why even mention the OP? Besides, it was not a non sequitur at all. merrily Jan 2015 #22
I am impressed with the manner you come to conclusions. NCTraveler Jan 2015 #26
I mentioned the government. You attacked me. Now, THAT is, among other things, a nonsequitur. merrily Jan 2015 #30
considering that Google thinks it can examine ALL your emails for content. hobbit709 Jan 2015 #20
Not to mention the NSA. I don't use email or the phone for anything important. merrily Jan 2015 #27
It's both pathetic and hilarious to see Wikileaks whine about privacy. Renew Deal Jan 2015 #28
It's the Center for Constitutional Rights doing the alleged whining on behalf of subscribers. merrily Jan 2015 #34
It says nothing that the Center for Constitutional Rights is making these arguments on behalf of merrily Jan 2015 #33
Some don't think any of that matters any more when ''Homeland Security'' is at steak. Octafish Jan 2015 #42
Then the people who refused to ratify the Constitution absent the Bill of Rights were enemies of the merrily Jan 2015 #43

merrily

(45,251 posts)
3. That's not actually wiki's complaint. Failure to disclose to the public is.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:13 AM
Jan 2015

From the OP

In the letter, WikiLeaks says it is “astonished and disturbed” that Google waited more than two and a half years to notify its subscribers, potentially depriving them of their ability to protect their rights to “privacy, association and freedom from illegal searches”.
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
4. There was a gag order.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:18 AM
Jan 2015

So being 'disturbed' sounds like whining.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
7. Don't know. So why be outraged at Google?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:39 AM
Jan 2015

If there was illegality going on, why would Google tell Wikileaks in the first place? Why would Wikileaks ask the question as to why Google waited 2 years after Google already told them?

It's petulance and posturing from the Wikileaks information laundering crew. Everything sounds on the up and up unless and until someone says differently.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

merrily

(45,251 posts)
8. It's not about telling wikileaks but subscribers. And how do you form an opinion without knowing?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:42 AM
Jan 2015

Wouldn't be simply a pro-Administration stance, would it?

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
11. Again, why did Google tell them in the first place?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:48 AM
Jan 2015

Are you saying the company should always defy the court system in order to let suspects in an investigation know they are being investigated?

There is nothing to be gained by Google by waiting 2 years and then telling Wikileaks. Apparently there was nothing to be gained by the investigation, either, or something would likely have already happened.

Come up with your own theories but Wikileaks questioning why Google waited after Google already told them sounds like keyboard petulance.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

merrily

(45,251 posts)
14. Appealing gag orders in favor of the public's right to know is quite common.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:50 AM
Jan 2015

And, again, unless you know the answers to the questions I asked, "always defy the court system" is over dramatic. In fact, even if you do know the answers, it's overly dramatic.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
13. Yeah, well, except for that pesky court system that keeps intruding.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:49 AM
Jan 2015

It doesn't matter if Wikileaks is anyone's personal band of heroes, it sounds (absent evidence to the contrary, of course) that everything was on the up and up.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
25. Not quite.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:11 AM
Jan 2015

The US Government is going full bore on anyone and any thing which expose their corruption.

Been that way for a while, above ground since September 11, 2001. Manning, Kiriakou, Assange, Brown, Sterling, etc. They didn't endanger the national security; they exposed the corruption at the heart of the national security state.

They may be making a movie: http://www.waronwhistleblowers.com/

Been that way for too long, since November 22, 1963.

CIA wrote the memo on how to manipulate the nation's mass media in regards to the Warren Commission's "Lone-Nut-Did-It" finding.

CIA Document #1035-960, marked "PSYCH" for presumably Psychological Warfare Operations, in the division "CS", the Clandestine Services, sometimes known as the "dirty tricks" department.



CIA Instructions to Media Assets

RE: Concerning Criticism of the Warren Report

1. Our Concern. From the day of President Kennedy's assassination on, there has been speculation about the responsibility for his murder. Although this was stemmed for a time by the Warren Commission report, (which appeared at the end of September 1964), various writers have now had time to scan the Commission's published report and documents for new pretexts for questioning, and there has been a new wave of books and articles criticizing the Commission's findings. In most cases the critics have speculated as to the existence of some kind of conspiracy, and often they have implied that the Commission itself was involved. Presumably as a result of the increasing challenge to the Warren Commission's report, a public opinion poll recently indicated that 46% of the American public did not think that Oswald acted alone, while more than half of those polled thought that the Commission had left some questions unresolved. Doubtless polls abroad would show similar, or possibly more adverse results.

2. This trend of opinion is a matter of concern to the U.S. government, including our organization. The members of the Warren Commission were naturally chosen for their integrity, experience and prominence. They represented both major parties, and they and their staff were deliberately drawn from all sections of the country. Just because of the standing of the Commissioners, efforts to impugn their rectitude and wisdom tend to cast doubt on the whole leadership of American society. Moreover, there seems to be an increasing tendency to hint that President Johnson himself, as the one person who might be said to have benefited, was in some way responsible for the assassination. Innuendo of such seriousness affects not only the individual concerned, but also the whole reputation of the American government. Our organization itself is directly involved: among other facts, we contributed information to the investigation. Conspiracy theories have frequently thrown suspicion on our organization, for example by falsely alleging that Lee Harvey Oswald worked for us. The aim of this dispatch is to provide material countering and discrediting the claims of the conspiracy theorists, so as to inhibit the circulation of such claims in other countries. Background information is supplied in a classified section and in a number of unclassified attachments.

3. Action. We do not recommend that discussion of the assassination question be initiated where it is not already taking place. Where discussion is active addresses are requested:

a. To discuss the publicity problem with (?)and friendly elite contacts (especially politicians and editors), pointing out that the Warren Commission made as thorough an investigation as humanly possible, that the charges of the critics are without serious foundation, and that further speculative discussion only plays into the hands of the opposition. Point out also that parts of the conspiracy talk appear to be deliberately generated by Communist propagandists. Urge them to use their influence to discourage unfounded and irresponsible speculation.

b. To employ propaganda assets to and refute the attacks of the critics. Book reviews and feature articles are particularly appropriate for this purpose. The unclassified attachments to this guidance should provide useful background material for passing to assets. Our ploy should point out, as applicable, that the critics are (I) wedded to theories adopted before the evidence was in, (II) politically interested, (III) financially interested, (IV) hasty and inaccurate in their research, or (V) infatuated with their own theories. In the course of discussions of the whole phenomenon of criticism, a useful strategy may be to single out Epstein's theory for attack, using the attached Fletcher article and Spectator piece for background. (Although Mark Lane's book is much less convincing that Epstein's and comes off badly where confronted by knowledgeable critics, it is also much more difficult to answer as a whole, as one becomes lost in a morass of unrelated details.)

4. In private to media discussions not directed at any particular writer, or in attacking publications which may be yet forthcoming, the following arguments should be useful:

a. No significant new evidence has emerged which the Commission did not consider. The assassination is sometimes compared (e.g., by Joachim Joesten and Bertrand Russell) with the Dreyfus case; however, unlike that case, the attack on the Warren Commission have produced no new evidence, no new culprits have been convincingly identified, and there is no agreement among the critics. (A better parallel, though an imperfect one, might be with the Reichstag fire of 1933, which some competent historians (Fritz Tobias, AJ.P. Taylor, D.C. Watt) now believe was set by Vander Lubbe on his own initiative, without acting for either Nazis or Communists; the Nazis tried to pin the blame on the Communists, but the latter have been more successful in convincing the world that the Nazis were to blame.)

b. Critics usually overvalue particular items and ignore others. They tend to place more emphasis on the recollections of individual witnesses (which are less reliable and more divergent--and hence offer more hand-holds for criticism) and less on ballistics, autopsy, and photographic evidence. A close examination of the Commission's records will usually show that the conflicting eyewitness accounts are quoted out of context, or were discarded by the Commission for good and sufficient reason.

c. Conspiracy on the large scale often suggested would be impossible to conceal in the United States, esp. since informants could expect to receive large royalties, etc. Note that Robert Kennedy, Attorney General at the time and John F. Kennedy's brother, would be the last man to overlook or conceal any conspiracy. And as one reviewer pointed out, Congressman Gerald R. Ford would hardly have held his tongue for the sake of the Democratic administration, and Senator Russell would have had every political interest in exposing any misdeeds on the part of Chief Justice Warren. A conspirator moreover would hardly choose a location for a shooting where so much depended on conditions beyond his control: the route, the speed of the cars, the moving target, the risk that the assassin would be discovered. A group of wealthy conspirators could have arranged much more secure conditions.

d. Critics have often been enticed by a form of intellectual pride: they light on some theory and fall in love with it; they also scoff at the Commission because it did not always answer every question with a flat decision one way or the other. Actually, the make-up of the Commission and its staff was an excellent safeguard against over-commitment to any one theory, or against the illicit transformation of probabilities into certainties.

e. Oswald would not have been any sensible person's choice for a co-conspirator. He was a "loner," mixed up, of questionable reliability and an unknown quantity to any professional intelligence service. (Archivist's note: This claim is demonstrably untrue with the latest file releases. The CIA had an operational interest in Oswald less than a month before the assassination. Source: Oswald and the CIA, John Newman and newly released files from the National Archives.)

f. As to charges that the Commission's report was a rush job, it emerged three months after the deadline originally set. But to the degree that the Commission tried to speed up its reporting, this was largely due to the pressure of irresponsible speculation already appearing, in some cases coming from the same critics who, refusing to admit their errors, are now putting out new criticisms.

g. Such vague accusations as that "more than ten people have died mysteriously" can always be explained in some natural way e.g.: the individuals concerned have for the most part died of natural causes; the Commission staff questioned 418 witnesses (the FBI interviewed far more people, conduction 25,000 interviews and re interviews), and in such a large group, a certain number of deaths are to be expected. (When Penn Jones, one of the originators of the "ten mysterious deaths" line, appeared on television, it emerged that two of the deaths on his list were from heart attacks, one from cancer, one was from a head-on collision on a bridge, and one occurred when a driver drifted into a bridge abutment.)

5. Where possible, counter speculation by encouraging reference to the Commission's Report itself. Open-minded foreign readers should still be impressed by the care, thoroughness, objectivity and speed with which the Commission worked. Reviewers of other books might be encouraged to add to their account the idea that, checking back with the report itself, they found it far superior to the work of its critics.

SOURCE: http://www.boston.com/community/forums/news/national/general/cia-instructions-to-media-assets-doc-1035-960/80/6210620

From 2003, first OP on DU I could find on it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x765619



So, when someone can't argue the facts, the instructions call for an attack on the messenger. What a co-incidence.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
38. Chief Justice Roberts Is Awesome Power Behind FISA Court
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:58 AM
Jan 2015

By Ezra Klein - Bloomberg
Jul 2, 2013 11:23 AM PT

EXCERPT...

Chief justice of the U.S. is a pretty big job. You lead the Supreme Court conferences where cases are discussed and voted on. You preside over oral arguments. When in the majority, you decide who writes the opinion. You get a cool robe that you can decorate with gold stripes.

Oh, and one more thing: You have exclusive, unaccountable, lifetime power to shape the surveillance state.

To use its surveillance powers -- tapping phones or reading e-mails -- the federal government must ask permission of the court set up by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. A FISA judge can deny the request or force the government to limit the scope of its investigation. It’s the only plausible check in the system. Whether it actually checks government surveillance power or acts as a rubber stamp is up to whichever FISA judge presides that day.

The 11 FISA judges, chosen from throughout the federal bench for seven-year terms, are all appointed by the chief justice. In fact, every FISA judge currently serving was appointed by Chief Justice John Roberts, who will continue making such appointments until he retires or dies. FISA judges don’t need confirmation -- by Congress or anyone else.

No other part of U.S. law works this way. The chief justice can’t choose the judges who rule on health law, or preside over labor cases, or decide software patents. But when it comes to surveillance, the composition of the bench is entirely in his hands and so, as a result, is the extent to which the National Security Agency and the Federal Bureau of Investigation can spy on citizens.

“It really is up to these FISA judges to decide what the law means and what the NSA and FBI gets to do,” said Julian Sanchez, a privacy scholar at the Cato Institute. “So Roberts is single handedly choosing the people who get to decide how much surveillance we’re subject to.”

CONTINUED...

More: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-02/chief-justice-roberts-is-awesome-power-behind-fisa-court.html

Back in the day...I got to know many of the judges and prosecutors in the Detroit area. More than a few GOP ones are very surprised at the turn the world's taken since September 11. One I know professionally well stood up to the Police State and signed on to oppose the persecution of Gov. Don Siegelman and the outting of Valerie Plame. While it may not show in the Box Score, it did show me that people on both sides of the aisle can have integrity. The problem is those at the top of the heap. They like the view.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
39. Loyalty to the administration/goverment or the Bill of Rights? Let's see, which is more important?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:01 AM
Jan 2015

I just can't decide.



Please see also Reply 33.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
29. What does Wikifreaks think that Anybody's rights were threatened?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:14 AM
Jan 2015

Do they know, or have reason to believe that Google was violating anyone's rights?

As best I can tell, Google received a warrant and complied with it. Nothing wrong with that, and I don't see that they really had a duty to reveal such information at all.

 

snooper2

(30,151 posts)
41. If the government has a classified warrant or FISA warrant...you think the people in the know should
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:19 AM
Jan 2015

just tell the people under warrant?


FBI to Sprint, here is a warrant for some people we suspect of hijacking big rigs on the highway. Full intercept of call detail information and audio...

Sprint employee, hey Mr. Customer, did you know the FBI are listening to your calls?


You would be a great investigator

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
23. Informing subscribers would have informed wikileaks
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:08 AM
Jan 2015

and that would have spoiled the purpose of the government-approved hack.

Of course, some of those "subscribers" are national intelligence services whose interests are not remedial or legitimate.

One hopes intel assets can reason that out.

Assuming they're still alive/free, of course.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
24. Two and a half years?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:11 AM
Jan 2015
Assuming they're still alive/free, of course.


Oh, I'm guessing they are or the govt would have made an even huger deal of the harm wikileaks allegedly caused.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
36. The length of time seems immaterial.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:52 AM
Jan 2015
Oh, I'm guessing they are or the govt would have made an even huger deal of the harm wikileaks allegedly caused.

I'm not familiar with a practice of confirming sources.

And I'm not sure what "an even huger deal" would look like; although I might imagine it could start with an extensive -- perhaps even multi-year -- effort to learn the extent of WL's sources and perhaps even its subscribers.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
37. It's always material for citizens to know who is snooping on which activities of theirs.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:56 AM
Jan 2015

And, yes, the government can make an even bigger deal of people dying as a direct result of disclosures than it has made. I can't even imagine not being able to imagine that.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
40. "It's always material for citizens to know who is snooping on which activities of theirs."
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:18 AM
Jan 2015

WL, unlike the NYT printing the Pentagon Papers, provided a medium by which information was released in such a manner that once released it could not be suppressed as could be done by a more institutional medium such as the NYT.

However, without the institutional bulwarks enjoyed by the NYT, WL is then vulnerable to "counter-offensive" efforts.

We can call it unfair. We can denounce it as skullduggery. We can even stamp our feet and call them big meanie-heads but it won't change the fact that --

1) Someone would have to be willfully naïve to think the government was going to just let WL operate unmolested

2) It's "legal" (for all the value that word holds for an anarchist)

And that's the point then, isn't it? It's legal. If any subscribers get roped up the question of, "Is this legit" has already been given tacit approval through judicial review. Complaining does no good.

Effort would be better spent adopting more pragmatic behaviors when dealing with these sorts of things. If we're convinced all government is run by duplicitous, conniving, megalomaniacal scoundrels then act accordingly. You cannot change them, you can only change how you interact with them.

To act surprised or offended is worth nothing but a good laugh.




And, yes, the government can make an even bigger deal of people dying as a direct result of disclosures than it has made. I can't even imagine not being able to imagine that.

You never heard the phrase, "We can neither confirm nor deny _____ was working with the US government"?

Astounding.

Renew Deal

(81,861 posts)
31. "Subscribers" would be foolish to think they have privacy when affiliating with Wikileaks
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:17 AM
Jan 2015

They are a party to a crime. Mannings conviction plainly proved that.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
35. Because the American public almost 3 years ago was on top of this issue? And huh?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:44 AM
Jan 2015

Reading the Pentagon Papers in the NYTimes was not becoming party to a crime. Even publishing them by the NYT may not have been. Govt then was sane enough not to move against the Times, so we'll never know. Reading wiki's publications is not becoming party to a crime either.

Mercifully for the First Amendment, the Center for Constitutional Rights hasn't lost its mind about readers exercising their First Amendment rights equaling becoming parties to crimes and thereby losing what remains of their Fourth Amendment rights.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
12. After WikiLeaks and Assanges treatment of Chelsea Manning....
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:49 AM
Jan 2015

This just makes me laugh. Yes, the bigger picture is important, but my initial thought is that of karma.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
15. How about the government's treatment of Chelsea Manning?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:52 AM
Jan 2015

Wikileaks is complaining on behalf of subscribers. What karma do subscribers deserve?

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
17. You got me!!!!!!!!! I fully support it!!!!!!!!!
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:57 AM
Jan 2015

Nice non-sequitur. Impressive. I notice you didn't say anything about the Iraq War in your op. I will use that to make the assumption you had chips and dip to celebrate the invasion.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
19. You might start with your assumption that I am the OP of this thread. I'm not.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:00 AM
Jan 2015

At least two parties involved in this news story mistreated Manning. Pointing that out in response to your post about only one of those parties mistreating him doesn't seem so very odd to me as it apparently does to you.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
21. Well then, your ommission and admission about Iraq was all in your reply.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:04 AM
Jan 2015

A truly perfect example of a non-sequitur. Well done.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
22. Then why even mention the OP? Besides, it was not a non sequitur at all.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:06 AM
Jan 2015

Mentioning only on wikileaks alleged mistreatment of Manning in this context kind of leads to mentioning the government's mistreatment.

Sorry if you don't agree.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
26. I am impressed with the manner you come to conclusions.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:11 AM
Jan 2015

If someone doesn't mention something, they must support it. My original comment stands on its own. What is funny is that we completely agree on the fact that both parties injured Manning. You just felt the need to use a shitty debate tactic. Truly funny there is agreement yet you decided to go the non-sequitur route. And yes. If you know what a non-sequitur is, you hit it out of the park with one. Stop the bullshit and get a clue that we fucking agree.

To help you to figure it out, because one does not mention something, does not mean they support it.

But...But....But....What about this?!?!?!?!?! lol

merrily

(45,251 posts)
30. I mentioned the government. You attacked me. Now, THAT is, among other things, a nonsequitur.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:15 AM
Jan 2015

BTW, where did I say a thing about what you do or do not support?

To help you to figure it out, because one does not mention something, does not mean they support it.


To help you figure it out, my mentioning the government does not equal accusing you of supporting govt, or, indeed, accusing you of anything.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
20. considering that Google thinks it can examine ALL your emails for content.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:02 AM
Jan 2015

I wouldn't use gmail to even say hello to an old friend.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
27. Not to mention the NSA. I don't use email or the phone for anything important.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:13 AM
Jan 2015

And I don't even have anything to hide. I don't imagine terrorists are more careless than I am.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
33. It says nothing that the Center for Constitutional Rights is making these arguments on behalf of
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:26 AM
Jan 2015

subscribers?

From the OP article:



The letter, written by WikiLeaks’ New York-based lawyer, Michael Ratner of the Center For Constitutional Rights, asks Google to list all the materials it provided to the FBI. Ratner also asks whether the California-based company did anything to challenge the warrants and whether it has received any further data demands it has yet to divulge.


People realize that the Center is acting in our interests under the Bill of Rights, right? Our First Amendment right to know. Our Fourth Amendment right to freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures--and googling does not necessarily, in and of itself, make a govt search of our research activities "reasonable?" Letting companies know that getting a warrant for OUR info does not necessarily let them totally off the hook, even if they make no effort to fight it?

ETA: ACLU also involved:

Alexander Abdo, a staff attorney and privacy expert at the American Civil Liberties Union, said the warrants were “shockingly broad” in their catch-all wording.

“This is basically ‘Hand over anything you’ve got on this person’,” he said. “That’s troubling as it’s hard to distinguish what WikiLeaks did in its disclosures from what major newspapers do every single day in speaking to government officials and publishing still-secret information.”





Octafish

(55,745 posts)
42. Some don't think any of that matters any more when ''Homeland Security'' is at steak.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:19 AM
Jan 2015
What Reichsmarschall Hermann Wilhelm Göring said.

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

So, don't ask questions or you'll be classified as an "Enemy of the State."



And we wouldn't want to be classified as an "Enemy of the State" now, would we?

merrily

(45,251 posts)
43. Then the people who refused to ratify the Constitution absent the Bill of Rights were enemies of the
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jan 2015

State. I think people who stand firmly against the Bill of Rights, especially if they are powerful, are much bigger enemies of the state than wikileaks or any discloser of info could ever be.

I am not at all sure if this about Homeland Security or this administration. I guess I would have to see how certain long time DUers reacted to disclosures like this during the Bush years before making up my mind.

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