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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRight. I'm doing this. I've been drunk enough to have woken up in bed with another guy
with my clothes all over the floor in the living room after having got outstandingly drunk on my birthday without the faintest memory of what happened the night before. He said "YOU were very compliant last night" and giggled and wouldn't tell me what happened.
So. Rape?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)How come I don't feel all screwed up inside about it?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)sometimes when its not violent it doesn't seem like rape. Or maybe it's like a lot of "date" rape the victim might not feel like it was rape.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Shouldn't I have mentally collapsed under the strain by now?
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)But, your remarks are getting pretty offensive. I have been raped and I didn't "collapse under the strain." It doesn't mean I wasn't raped. Take issue with the situation without mocking those of us who have been victims.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I'm describing myself, not other people. I HAVE collapsed under the strain of other things in my life. I don't think there's anything to feel but sympathy for people who have been knocked out of orbit by rape or anything else.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)...then was it really rape. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way, but it is how I read it.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I'm sorry. I did not mean to for my statement to bring things up like that, and I see what you mean.
It was really just a sincere question and I am TOTALLY not trying to imply that my experience should be taken as some kind of precedent. I want to know what people actually think because I'm looking at all this stuff about rape on DU and it means things for me and my life. I don't really want to think I'm a rape victim and I don't feel like one at all but - I hope you understand me - I know I can't possibly expect other people to reasses their own experiences in the light of mine, that's not how I see anything to do with sex and relationships anyway.
I hope you managed to find a way around your own experience and all is well.
I am truly just trying to fit myself in with what appears to be the prevailing understanding. I just... kind of DON'T. Maybe I should be worried that I'm making a stupid mistake.
It's just that this is the same guy that picked me up off the floor last year when I had toresign from my job because my boss was so awful that I was acually getting weird heat pains in my chest at the thought of even speaking to her. He fixed the whole thing up and when I broke down in front of him while explaining how work made me feel saying "I feel like I'm lying! Why do I feel like I'm lying? I'm telling the truth" he just held me and told that I was ill and not to worry and he would take care of me and to just rest. This is the guy who's supposedly a rapist.
I hope you see what I mean. I can't fit myself into all this stuff about rape. And if what people on this site are saying is true, then I SHOULD, shouldn't I?
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)neither does how your partner feels about what it is or was. Obviously you have moved on from that and don't have any permanent scars, congrats.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)There is an expectation in our culture that anyone who has been raped is bound to be horribly damaged by the experience.
I don't think this is quite accurate; the reality is a little more complex.
Some survivors seem to be relatively unscathed after the experience. Others can have their lives ruined. It's a spectrum, a continuum. Where a given victim ends up on that continuum of injury depends on a whole lot of factors unique to that person and to the situation.
Sometimes we aren't doing the survivors any favors by insisting that they must have been terribly injured, and even putting great effort into convincing them this is so. Only the person who had the experience knows what the nature and extent of the injuries is.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Obviously this whole area is fraught with emotion, and people tend to react accordingly, with little rational thought.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)THAT makes sense.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)The "drunk" aspect can be a sticky wicket, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, more than a few people have had "drunk sex" and it wasn't rape. That said, if your partner passes out, then the 'date' is over. While I disagree, to some extent, about who can and cannot consent while intoxicated, an unconscious person can never consent. The only exception I can conjure is prior permission, which I wouldn't really accept as an affirmative defense.
4now
(1,596 posts)waking up naked in bed with a giggling friend.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)But rape isn't something to tease about, ever.
Response to sibelian (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)until you woke up the next day saying you didn't remember anything. Maybe you got naked and passed out when you got to bed. Maybe he was blitzed too and doesn't remember anything and has just been playing with you all this time. There are many different possibilities. Whatever the case may be, there must have been a strong attraction once y'all woke up and saw each other the next morning, regardless of what happened the night before. If not, you wouldn't be together today. Count yourself very lucky. Most people don't have that kind of luck, I'm afraid.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)That doesn't mean that someone else in that situation would feel the same way. Your subsequent description also makes it pretty clear this was in the context of an existing relationship. One wonders how you'd feel if you woke up in a strange bed with a stranger and no idea who they were, where you were and how you'd gotten there. You can't extrapolate from the context of that particular situation and decide "if I don't think that I was raped then this can't be rape regardless of the context and situation".
Chemisse
(30,813 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)who they were."
Hmf. THAT's the million dollar question, I guess. You're quite right, I don't know.
I'm really not trying to extrapolate anything, I'm much more trying to see what the accepted definintion of rape means for ME if something's happened to me that ought to be called rape that just doesn't make me, ya know, feel raped. What am I supposed to do or think?
As I said to Behind_The_Aegis, I certainly do not think that my little escapades can be taken as indicative of anything for other people. I would NEVER make that assumption just because my version doesn't mean to me what it seems like I'm supposed to think it does.
I hope you understand me. I want to know if I'm wrong. What am I suppose to call what happened? What's it's name?
I guess it's not your job to tell me, anyhow.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Well said.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)which makes it different from outright rape I think--though I would call it rude and crude. If it's in the context of an otherwise good relationship, and the receiver doesn't feel violated, then move on I guess.
But I would wonder about the person who does this to another and then thinks it's perfectly fine. My warning flag goes up.
ChosenUnWisely
(588 posts)If you have time to post on the internets about it you are either trolling to cause trouble or you were not raped.
If you think you were raped contact the authorities ASAP.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)And my question is sincere. Of course I'm not trolling!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I know that's how some members of law enforcement think, but isn't that a bit of an outdated attitude?
sibelian
(7,804 posts)But I truly did not feel violated or abused in any way. So why would I call the police?
Obviously a different person's experience is different...
olddots
(10,237 posts)Please explain because its confusing .
sibelian
(7,804 posts)because I don't know which bit is the confusing bit.
malaise
(269,054 posts)Not all drunken sex is rape
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)If they both got drunk intentionally it is not rape,
If one drugged the other it is certainly rape.
malaise
(269,054 posts)Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)I don't know what to say.
Response to sibelian (Original post)
Post removed
LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)a woman feel relaxed.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)On Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:40 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
They say he knows just how to make
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6159777
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Rape joke. That says it all, really.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:46 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I do not see it so much as a rape joke as a sarcastic commentary upon a newsworthy issue.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: when is it ok to make s Cosby joke? please let the world know so we don't offend your delicate sensibilities. i bet people roll their eyes at you when you talk.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am leaving this because this person is not joking about raped, as once can see in this post in the same thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026159669#post12
This is a commentary/sarcasm about the allegations about bill Cosby, which can be seen in the post he replied to which was hidden, but can still be read for context. It is not a rape joke.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I was going to vote hide at first, but then read the hidden post. I think it's more of a joke about how awful Cosby is. I'm on the fence, but am voting leave.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Without the previous post, which is hidden, difficult to get the context.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explan
LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)I really didn't think that post would be controversial. I apologize if I offended anyone. Juror #1 had it right -- it's sarcastic commentary. I think rape and rapists are contemptible, and I don't think it's funny at all.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)the nuances of each persons experience should be taken into account rather than blanket statements of what is/was/can be rape.
Obvious statements of fact aside. Such as having sex with a drunk, passed out woman without consent is rape.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)If the OP had decided to be vindictive and file charges, would it have been right for the other person to go to prison for rape?
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)One hopes that a thorough investigation would exonerate the innocent one. Look, I'm not ignorant of the fact it can happen. With drinking all types of crazy shit can happen. In this story posted by the OP I'd say it wasn't. I haven't got all the answers, though. I'm just gonna police myself and teach my soon to born child as best I can about the risks of alcohol.
mythology
(9,527 posts)then you are kind of taking your chances in that regard. That's why getting clear-headed consent is crucial.
You can't tell somebody to feel that they weren't violated. So if somebody who was drunk out of their mind tells you that they were raped after you had sex with them the night before, well, you did take advantage of somebody who wasn't in a position to freely consent. And if they feel violated, you did that to them.
You can say somebody wasn't legally violated or that you can't prove they were legally raped, but that's different than what they feel. Most rape isn't a stranger jumping out of the bushes. Most rapes are committed by somebody known to the victim. But how many of those guys consider themselves rapists? They make excuses to justify saying that the victim wanted it, or that they didn't say no, or that they owed it.
Until we as a society understand that you should always get somebody's affirmative buy in on sex, you're putting yourself at risk.
You don't need to have a checklist and get it notarized, but at least the broad strokes of what's okay and what isn't.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--which should speak to the type of guy who doesn't even consider the risks to himself involved.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)If the OP didn't feel like they were raped and has to ask if what happened to them was rape or not, I'm thinking they must be ok with their partner doing whatever with them while they are out cold. If that is ok with them, then I guess that's just their thing. A person who has been raped doesn't have to ask if it was rape. They fucking know they were raped. I know that from personal experience. You KNOW when you were raped. You don't have to ask other people if it was rape.
If the OP did feel like it was rape, filing charges would put it into the court's hands to figure it all out. Whether or not the other person goes to prison for rape (most rapists don't) isn't for someone on DU to decide. That is what we have the justice system for, even though it fails to do much to actually punish many rapists.
Filing charges wouldn't be vindictive, in that case. The way you worded that is really fucked up.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Sorry I was not clear.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I understand better now. Thanks.
randome
(34,845 posts)I've often thought we make things worse for a rape victim when we insist that she (or he) feel like shit afterwards.
Of course 'victim' is often as much of an outsider's label in the first place.
All too often it's an appropriate label, however, and thus the never-ending complexities.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]
Lee-Lee
(6,324 posts)Consent and intoxication is a sticky area. Because long time partners can enjoy drinking and still have consensual sex- otherwise the implication is that anytime even an established couple drinks they can't have sex.
On the other hand, if it was used to get you to do things you wouldn't otherwise- then maybe. But I have friends who will say "I only like anal when I'm drunk" and do it repeatedly when drunk. Is that rape, or use of alcohol to make the experience more enjoyable.
It all comes down to how you viewed the events the next day and days after.
And that's why rape of this manner is hardest to take to court sometimes.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I have had numerous sexual exploits whilst somewhat inebriated. That one was the only time I actually couldn't remember what happened.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)being described as "compliant" by someone who remembers all your actions while you remember none of them is the huge red flag.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)It was a word that meant the same thing though, like "eager to please" or "cooperative" or something like that.
All these words have different overtones.
Lars39
(26,109 posts)I need to think about what you said now.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Your experience and someone else's may not be identical. In fact, it's unlikely that they would be.
While you may not have considered what happened to be rape, and you may actually have consented, that has nothing to do with what has happened to others who did not consent or who did not have a relationship with the other person.
What you consider an interesting memory is irrelevant to what someone else has experienced.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Relating a personal experience and asking folks' opinions about it is not trying to "prove" anything.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)That's what anecdotal evidence is - anecdotes.
Everyone's experiences are different.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)But it was not presented as "evidence" of anything.
When someone posts of their experience that was probably an actual rape, do you reply that it was merely an "anecdote"?
madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)What bothers me the most is the absolutists who refuse to admit there ARE exceptions to everything and only want to see things in black and white, good versus evil, etc. I want to think that DU is better than that.
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)Happy anniversary?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)How about this: if your partner is drunk, but you have a reasonable belief that they would not object to your actions when they become sober, then it is not rape (and such a reasonable belief would obviously be bolstered by an existing relationship, but would never apply in the case of a stranger).
Is this a reasonable approach?
Rex
(65,616 posts)Did you feel raped, taken advantage of or felt like it was sex between two people? I don't know why you are asking people a question only you would know the answer to.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I felt amusedly annoyed with him for poking fun at me and not telling me what happened, and mildly (amusedly) sheepish, but in the end I wasn't even particuarly bothered. I just thought "Hmf! Bastard! I guess YOU had fun at least" and that, seriously, was it.
But you know, I know him and I probably had fun too. He's, uh, not particularly sinister...
The reason I ask (which I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have done now) is because there have been posts on the site recently with very strong and determined and exact views about what exactly constitutes rape. Given my experience I found these very disturbing. If I am to take the assertion that drunk sex is rape then basically I'm a rape victim and possibly the fact that I don't see myself as one means there's something wrong with ME.
I think the way I see it is that there's more to rape than just flatly asserting that rape is an automatic consequence of certain circumstances. If I'm wrong about that, that's fine, but, for obvious reasons, I would like to know WHY I'm wrong about it.
Rex
(65,616 posts)think about if you were raped or not. I would say had you woken up and felt shocked or horrified, that might be a good indicator. That you felt amused by his coyness, I dunno. How do you tell another person how to feel after sleeping with someone? Did they mean to sleep with someone?
I think you will get different answers from people here, to me, no I don't think YOU feel it was rape. I think some here will tell you that it was and some will say it was drunk sex.
There is certainly nothing wrong with you since you don't feel like it was rape or am I wrong? I don't think you are wrong, I think it would be wrong to feel like you were raped, but didn't say anything about it. I think you don't think it was wrong, but still I would be annoyed too if someone had fun the night before and I couldn't remember anything.
I never encountered much problems with that as a young man, because I could not have sex when I was drunk drunk...the apparatus will not function drunk. I am glad you brought this up, because nothing is black and white. Consent is black and white, but if you have no memory of consent or not, maybe you were raped and maybe not. Wishy washy answer, but that is all I can think to say.
Ykcutnek
(1,305 posts)And it's scary that we have activists constantly trying to redefine these things instead of educating about the dangers of getting piss-faced around a group of people.
Shit happens. We've all done stupid shit when we're drunk. We're supposed to chalk it up to just another night of partying and go on about our lives.
People who want to ruin the lives of others for what they did when they were inebriated and without inhibition need to stay at home and read a book or something. You are a life-ending landmine no one wants drinking with them.
ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)Wow
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)The best we could come up with was "maybe".
ismnotwasm
(41,989 posts)I used to have regret sex too-- never ever called it rape. Now The time I, very drunk, jumped in a car with a group of young men, who then scared the shit out of me by demanding sex (whereupon I, sitting next to the door opened that motherfucker and threatened to jump out until they let me out, ruining my shoes on the ground flying by and everything)--that would have been rape of course. I have other, far worse examples.
I've woken up with some passed out asshole, thought oh shit and crept out the door taking the booze and extracurriculars with me. Was that rape? No, because I remember my embarrassingly unfortunate intent to get laid, even if I don't remember the act itself.
I also remember men buying me drink after drink, with the intent of getting me drunk and themselves sex. That never worked with me, because I was a hardcore drinker at one time. I'd ditch their asses and go find a friend I liked. But the intent was there, and it did happen to women. The women I ran around with didn't cry rape either- they knew they'd get blamed.
Now, This was more years ago than I like to think but two things are clear, nothing much has changed about drinking behavior and women are sick of sexual predators.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)If it's your first time being intimate with someone, it's a really good idea to make sure they are completely sober.
After that, when it is clear they are into you that way and you are in some sort of relationship, having sex when you are both drunk or the other person is a little drunker than you is probably OK. Unconscious or clearly unable to consent is never OK.
But you notice, the vast majority of the situations where rape is alleged in a drunk or intoxicated situation is the first time that the folks involved have been intimate. That brings into question whether the drunkest person involved was really consenting to sex with that person. That should be obvious to almost anyone if they are honest and think about it.
Response to sibelian (Original post)
Agnosticsherbet This message was self-deleted by its author.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Nuff said.
madinmaryland
(64,933 posts)I have 254 posts in my Favourite Group.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)By YOU, yes.
Response to valerief (Reply #61)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)They're fools.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)if you were raped, you'd know it. Your situation is that gray line, the in between area. I'm no expert on that situation. In some cases, I do think it was rape. In others, the person doesn't object after finding out. You could say technically it could be considered rape, in a lot of cases, but if you don't object to it after finding out, then maybe in your case, it wasn't.
Maybe it just comes down to would you object if someone you are dating did that to you or not. If you do not object, then maybe it's no problem to you. Others might feel differently in the same situation with their SO.
I just think that if a person was raped, they would KNOW they were raped. That is just my gut instinct. I know I knew when I was raped. Then again, my situation was violent and involved a crowd of people cheering the entire thing on. There was no doubt about mine though, because it would have been considered a hate crime in a more civilized area of the country.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)I'm so sorry to hear about it. I hope you found your way around it...
I suppose a in my case lot of what persuades me that nothing untoward happened was how silly and good-natured it all was. I hear stories like yours and find it completely impossible to use the same word to describe what happened to you and what happened to me.
(((Jamastienne)))
Response to sibelian (Original post)
NCTraveler This message was self-deleted by its author.