Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Panich52

(5,829 posts)
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:47 PM Feb 2015

Religious freedom gives me the constitutional right to violate your constitutional rights. Right?

DailyKos
by Ian Reifowitz

Conservatives just love the Constitution. Or at least they say they do. The thing is, they don't seem to have any idea how it works. (snip)

When the Supreme Court recognizes that marriage equality is a constitutionally guaranteed right, one part of the battle will be over. But conservatives have already begun to fight on another front, namely how to implement (or not) that right. ... various bills that would give government officials who perform civil marriage ceremonies and/or issue marriage licenses and other related documents the ability to refuse same-sex couples if it would violate a "sincerely held religious belief."

Additionally, Oklahoma State Rep. Todd Russ proposed to take civil officials out of the marriage business altogether... ... although Rep. Russ says anyone else who wants to get married can "fil[e] an affidavit of common law marriage with the court clerk." Small problem: the state of Oklahoma doesn't recognize common law marriages, although courts have recognized some on a case-by-case basis. ...

Even if they were adopted, such laws almost certainly would be struck down as unconstitutional. Nevertheless, they are instructive because of what they say about the conservative concept of religious freedom. John J. Kallam is a Baptist minister in North Carolina. He also served for 12 years as a magistrate judge... Last October he quit after he was told he could not "opt out" of performing same-sex marriages.

He brought up the matter of a Sikh soldier in the U.S. Army who successfully argued that religious freedom gave him the right to wear a turban and grow a beard, ...

Let's take Kallam's argument seriously for a moment, in order to demonstrate why it is wrong to conflate these two examples as being equally deserving of legal protection under the framework of religious freedom. First, the Sikh-American soldier's turban and beard are an act of expression that affects only himself, whereas a North Carolina magistrate judge refusing to perform a marriage directly affects other people,

Religious freedom means that Kallam has every right to believe that marriage ought to be restricted to a man and a woman, or, for all I care, three men and a baby (whatever happened to Steve Guttenberg, anyway?). But Kallam cannot act on those beliefs—especially not as an officer of the state—if doing so would deny others their constitutional rights.

And this rejection of the clear distinction between expressing one's faith and acting on it to discriminate against others is at the heart of the conservative concept of religious freedom. ...

In addition to pushing laws that would allow government officials to discriminate in the name of religious freedom, conservatives are also pushing laws that would allow private businesses to do the same thing, ...

... South Carolina Republican State Sen. Lee Bright argued that laws allowing this kind of discrimination are not only right but constitutional because "we have similar language for folks that work in health care that don’t want to participate in abortions" due to their religious beliefs. At first glance, this might seem a potent argument. However, it's little more than sleight of hand. Medical professionals are not allowed to say: "I perform abortions, but only for heterosexuals." That would be discrimination, and that's exactly what florists, bakers, and county magistrates would be doing if they provided their services to some, but not others.

Here's the one I'd like to run by conservatives who talk about religious freedom in these terms: Think about someone whose religious beliefs state that women must not work outside the home. Now imagine that person having authority over hiring decisions at his job. Do his religious beliefs allow him to discriminate against a female candidate for a position? Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination on the basis of both religion and sex. I'd like to see a conservative argue that religious freedom gives the man in this scenario the right to reject, out of hand, all women candidates seeking employment.

This is not about religious freedom. All Americans are guaranteed the right to their religious beliefs, the right to worship (or not) any deity they choose in the manner in which they choose. That is a bedrock principle of this country and progressives would fight tooth and nail to preserve it, should it ever be endangered. The thing is, it's not in danger, other than from conservatives themselves, from people like Bryan Fischer, who last September said that all immigrants should be forced to convert to Christianity. Fischer remains connected to the American Family Association, an organization closely allied to the Republican National Committee.

It's real simple. Conservatives think religious freedom gives them the right to discriminate on the basis of their religious beliefs. They're wrong, because, to paraphrase Zechariah Chafee, their right to practice their religion ends where my nose begins.

Full article (contains other links):

http://m.dailykos.com/stories/1360899

15 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Religious freedom gives me the constitutional right to violate your constitutional rights. Right? (Original Post) Panich52 Feb 2015 OP
Nooo ... 1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #1
As long as by "me" you mean me! jberryhill Feb 2015 #5
Ofcourse "Me" means "Me" ... 1StrongBlackMan Feb 2015 #6
Means the same thing to me jberryhill Feb 2015 #8
And you persecute them when you prevent them from persecuting others. NightWatcher Feb 2015 #2
"Religious Liberty" is a code term (among many of the far right) Dawson Leery Feb 2015 #3
State Rep. Todd Ross's proposal is the most logical. Hoppy Feb 2015 #4
Civil unions are not marriages. Ms. Toad Feb 2015 #9
If my proposal were implemented, it could only be done if full legal rights attained to civil union Hoppy Feb 2015 #10
You do not understand the process of changing the law. Ms. Toad Feb 2015 #11
Under my proposal, marriage would no longer be a state institution. Hoppy Feb 2015 #12
No. It doesn't. That is exactly where I am proceeding from. Ms. Toad Feb 2015 #13
Hobby Lobby decision changes everything though. riderinthestorm Feb 2015 #7
What ever happened to the 4 paragraph rule? hrmjustin Feb 2015 #14
Religious freedom is a harmful illusion. Yorktown Feb 2015 #15
 

1StrongBlackMan

(31,849 posts)
1. Nooo ...
Mon Feb 2, 2015, 11:56 PM
Feb 2015

Religious freedom gives ME the constitutional right to violate YOUR constitutional rights; not, you the right to violate my rights!

NightWatcher

(39,343 posts)
2. And you persecute them when you prevent them from persecuting others.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 12:00 AM
Feb 2015

How dare you force them to tolerate someone else's existence.

Dawson Leery

(19,348 posts)
3. "Religious Liberty" is a code term (among many of the far right)
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 12:11 AM
Feb 2015

meaning politically conservative Christians have rights and no one else.

 

Hoppy

(3,595 posts)
4. State Rep. Todd Ross's proposal is the most logical.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 12:50 AM
Feb 2015

It needs to be carried a step further but it would work if the states got out of the marriage business by saying marriage is a religious activity. Therefore, the states will only give out civil union documents. These documents would provide the holders with rights, privileges and responsibilities of the former marriage licenses.

If people want them, they can take those licenses to a religious institution, witch doctor or where ever, for a blessing.

Ms. Toad

(34,086 posts)
9. Civil unions are not marriages.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 11:11 AM
Feb 2015

That is one of the big thing I have been saying for decades. The body of marriage law does not apply to civil unions. I have said this every time the question comes up - and at the first opportunity (post Windsor) the decisions went exactly the same way I have been predicting. Civil unions are not marriages.

If you don't understand that, just ask any same gender couple who had a civil union if they were allowed to file as a married couple after Windsor - or to receive the federal rights afforded married couples.

I have friends who are very bitter over that - since they were told (and believed) that you could magically create - within a state - a status other than marriage that would be equal. You can't. At a minimum it would take decades of legal work to make them equivalent as every single civil union law was tested within the state, and in interstate and international settings to determine what status to afford it. They have, in some instances, lost the benefit of years of marriage because they stopped pursuing marriage once they had created a civil union. That lost benefit took effect immediately when they were not permitted to retroactively amend their tax returns. Longer term, it will have an impact for some on spousal social security benefits.

Marriage is a civil matter. But it is a marriage, not something else with a different name. At law, when you use a different term, it is because you intend it to be different. When religious marriages are recognized by the state it is because there is a special section in the state law that permits them to act on behalf of the state to solemnize the marriage - as an agent of the state.

 

Hoppy

(3,595 posts)
10. If my proposal were implemented, it could only be done if full legal rights attained to civil union
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 12:00 PM
Feb 2015

The laws would have to be changed to allow full rights or the religious people would be screaming along with the gays and atheists.

Ms. Toad

(34,086 posts)
11. You do not understand the process of changing the law.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 12:36 PM
Feb 2015

Marriage is a state institution. The current, mostly seamless, way that heterosexual marriage works is the result of decades of litigation, the cost of which was borne by individuals who encountered a situation not previously addressed, and were forced to litigate to establish that their marriage should be recognized for any of dozens of purposes by a new jurisdiction.

When you talk about replacing marriage, the first step is to get every jurisdiction (not only in this country, but every other country) to create a legal status called "civil union." If there isn't an civil union status in Canada, for example, my Vermont civil union gives me no rights when I cross the border into Canada (or into a neighboring state that does not have a civil union status).

The next step is to litigate (cost borne by individuals) thousands of cases to establish that the civil union in State A is close enough to the civil union in State B, or Country C that State B or Country C would be willing to step into the shoes of State A.

That's just the start - but the point is, there is no shortcut.

On the other hand, once the Supreme Court mandates the recognition same gender marriages as a constitutional matter, the only remaining litigation will be isolated litigation to enforce recognition - not the massive litigation to that would be required to create a new, universally recognized, legal status.

If you doubt how much is required, spend some time in a property, wills, or family law casebook - just to get a taste of how the seamless web of recognition of marriage was created. And marriage is a known entity - not some new thing being created to placate a handful of religious folks who don't understand that they are the servants of the legal system, not the other way around.

 

Hoppy

(3,595 posts)
12. Under my proposal, marriage would no longer be a state institution.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 09:04 PM
Feb 2015

It would only be a religious artifact.

Proceed from there and you will see why it will work.

Ms. Toad

(34,086 posts)
13. No. It doesn't. That is exactly where I am proceeding from.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:33 AM
Feb 2015

You don't understand the process by which marriage has become what it is today - something which is recognized wherever it was created, and wherever you currently live for any and all purposes (inheritance, divorce, social security, income taxes, etc.)

That cannot be accomplished by a legislative magic wand. It requires as many wands as there are states (including the equivalent in every single country in the world). Once all those legislative magic wands have been waved then you start the hard work of obtaining cross jurisdiction recognition - which includes evaluating whether a civil union in Ohio is equivalent enough to a civil union in California, to one in Mexico, to one in China. That's just basic recognition so that when I move from Ohio to California, California is willing to step into Ohio's shoes in my marriage. Beyond that, you need to litigate specialty recognition for divorce, property ownership, social security, income taxes, etc.

There are no shortcuts, because both the legislative and litigation process are creatures of the state (the Constitution mandates it). That means that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas - and can't just be applied in Ohio. Ohio has to decide for itself. As does Iowa. As does Utah. etc.

Think about the decades of the process of gaining recognition of same gender marriage - or the state by state process it took for same gender couples to create a legal relationship with their children. That is a fraction of the process that would be required to replace marriage with civil unions.

I teach law. I'm not just talking off the top of my head. You don't understand the history of how marriage became universal and transportable, or the reality of what it would take to create an alternate institution.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
7. Hobby Lobby decision changes everything though.
Tue Feb 3, 2015, 08:42 AM
Feb 2015

That allows an entity to claim same sex marriage does violate sincerely held religious beliefs.

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
15. Religious freedom is a harmful illusion.
Wed Feb 4, 2015, 12:45 AM
Feb 2015

Religious freedom is an illusion. It's impossible. Or you would have to grant permission to Inca priests to sacrifice female virgins to help the sun 'rise' every morning.

Religious freedom at the very least should have the boundary of the harm it does to others. The anti-vaxx religious nuts hurt their children. A religious nut wanting to stop that couple living a happy life of their own choice is hurting that couple. A religious nut preaching that Jews will be exterminated on Judgment Day is spreading hate speech conducive to violence.

The first Amendment is therefore flawed. The legislature should make laws restraining the harmful exercise of religions.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Religious freedom gives m...