more deflective rhetorical flak.

nt

Is he not that poster's Pope?

Oh, you're making fun of the Catholics...gotcha....

His initial comments about the LGBT community were too restrained

They don't have the faith in their convictions to stand up and claim their Pope of Pop on these occasions.

Not a leg to stand on.

their love for him. Such cowards, they should be here supporting Frankie Sunshine.

and laugh-worthy exceptions, they have all been shamed into silence, as they should be. Every time Blank Frank doubles down on his homophobic bigotry, their claims that he's "moving slowly but in a good direction" ring more and more hollow. But there will always be a few people here who defend him and his blatant hatred of homosexuals at every turn.

Your constant reminding DU of his real views kept a healthy dose if skepticism about him.

Unfortunately, you appear to have been right all along - I hoped that he had evolved from his prior nasty statements that you always cited.

Pope Hitler Youth's rightward lurch.

At a glance, especially when speaking about the poor, Francis seems like a really progressive dude, but he's really the second coming of the pope before Ratzinger. No further left than that.

Which is to say, not left at all. In fact, JPII was far to the right on many social issues.

But JPII and Francis talk a good game about the poor, and capitalism, and other economic inequalities. That's it. On all social issues I'm aware of, meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


In fact, Francis is much more open about his bigotry against same sex couples, than John Paul II was.

was more focused on it than Francis is. So the parts of Francis people like were also present in Benedict, just as the parts of Benedict I criticized are also present in Francis.

Pontificating about the poor, and charity, and income inequality in his red velvet shoes, on his gold throne, etc.

But yes, that's a good point, Ratzinger too spent a significant amount of time lobbying for the poor. But a lot of it fell on deaf ears for his failure to identify with the poor in any way, personally. It was PR by lead balloon.

Islamic fundamentalism. Barf.

Signed, a confirmed Catholic who now considers himself to be recovering.

Now we know. New Pope...same old stuff.

Democratic party take to fight back on his other positions? It does not appear to me to be
wise..look what their position has done to gay families. It is much worse to be brought
up in a home of a gay couple than that of a family who admittedly beat their kids...
that's the mindset.

What will the price be for him helping to promote greater income equality in the US?
The Pope is going to be challenged to explain his support for inequality for
human beings? If it is left up to him, a judge would have no say.

Slovak parents fail to block adoption by gay couple
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27552716

This is not some theocracy.

indebted to other lobby pressure..why add this guy to the mix?
There is always a price to be paid.

and stop expecting to extract it out of the LGBT community. We are not fodder for your political machinations. Let them try it. Let them endorse a rabidly bigoted, stridently anti choice activist and try to get elected again. I dare them.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., also a Catholic, said she joined welcoming Pope Francis to address Congress. Pelosi attended his inauguration at the Vatican and praised him as "a moral force."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/03/13/boehner-pope-francis/6373779/

She's a rich old gas bag that needs to exit the Congress, and now would be a good time to start talking about taking Nancy off the table.

But listen when I tell you, the LGBT community will not be paying any 'price' for your stupid Pope's 'help'. Those who endorse him will be paying the price, big time. That's all there is to it.

an objection to him speaking on the grounds of separation of church and state?

My stupid Pope? I'm not a christian, thank you and don't want him there..good luck.

That sure looked like advocacy for his role, and a demand that LGBT people buckle under to him. You are the one discouraging objections to his speaking in Congress. I am the one objecting to it while you really aren't.
Clearly spoken communications can be a real plus. Try it out.

He is not stupid, so what is he expecting in return? Less push back or more
polite push back on his agenda?

He is the leader of our party just like the idiot in the pointed cap is of the Catholics.

nt

I've heard, right here at DU, that Pope Francis is the next best thing to puppy kisses and unicorn farts.

he did try to make that little kid feel better about his dead dog, so it all evens out.

Sarcasm smiley available on request.

I'm supposed to overlook things like this because reasons.

It's the SOS with this guy!

... we do our own thing.

I'll let you know when they kick my ass out of the club.

Catholicism is part of my community in much the same way U.S.A. citizenship is part of my community.

I don't remember choosing, as a new soul waiting to be born, where I wanted to land.

Maybe I was lucky, maybe not...

and other reputable news sources.

He's actually saying this shit.

But not surprised.

He's so f'in dreamy!

That said, "Endorses Referendum" is an overstatement. Here are his full comments, made at the general audience in Rome, if you care to translate them: http://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/it/audiences/2015/documents/papa-francesco_20150204_udienza-generale.html

Here, let me link you to the pope yammering in his native Huttese.

as well as being an ineffective one. Hopefully, some day soon, apologists for homophobic bigotry will be as unwelcome on DU as climate change deniers and anti-vaxxers, and will no longer be allowed to justify or excuse such behavior because of their "faith" or whatever the fuck it is.

Most of the others have swept this incident under the red carpet laid out for Pope Hugsandtickles.

of this pope and the institutional bigotry and sexism that he champions on DU, but more and more of then seem to have been shamed into silence by the overwhelming (and heartening) condemnation voiced by the vast majority of people here, and by decent people everywhere.

A few are apparently not subject to shame or liable to self-examination, but it's not a perfect world.

The Pope represents a 2,000 year old conservative institution. Does anyone really think he's going to turn on a dime on this issue?

This pope is progressive in many, many ways. Gay rights, sadly, isn't one of them. That he and the Church he represents are not enlightened on this issue doesn't negate the good things he and the Church do.

I can condemn the Church's position on homosexuality (and some others) without trying to tear down the whole edifice, to which more than a billion people on this planet look.

I'm not a Catholic; hell, I'm not even a believer, but I get tired of this one-dimensional thinking. The Pope and the Church aren't good or bad; they're both.

He's charging ahead with exactly the same bigoted doctrine that has always held sway among Catholics, as his words clearly show (and the RCC's transparent PR campaign notwithstanding).

But hey, guess it's ok to be an apologist for a man and and organization who are determined to see a huge segment of the population deprived of their full rights as human beings because...well...ummmm...SOUP KITCHENS! YEAH! That fixes it!

And if you think that condemning homophobic bigotry on a progressive web site is being on my "high horse", I really have to wonder about you.

Here's your chance to unfurl your entire list of prejudices against anyone or anything Catholic.

Here's your chance; your peanut gallery is here.

You quibble with the translation in the OP, yet official catholic news services (CNS is editorially independent and a financially self-sustaining division of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.) reported BOTH elements of the pope's bigotry in the Philippines just a couple months ago. He opposed same sex marriage, AND was 'shocked' at and opposed same sex couples adopting.

And here you are in this thread, herp derp "Endorses Referendum" is an overstatement" as if nobody's been paying attention to the pope's dealings over the last several years. As if nobody heard what he said in the Philippines. As if nobody heard what he said in Argentina before he was anyone of note on the international stage.


No need to 'unfurl the entire list'. We've got quite enough for a conviction already.

So much for integrity.

Talk about pathetic diversions.

If you want a discussion in the open, keep posting in the open. People will respond.
Now, back to the issue, if you have any credible answer.

At the moment I'm waiting for your buddy to put up or shut up with his accusation.

Feel free to provide cover for him.

On Thu Feb 5, 2015, 02:10 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Ah. he tagged the peanut gallery instead.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6185323

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster has been rude, snarky and hostile all through the thread, and now he's calling other posters "the peanut gallery" and accusing another poster of lacking integrity. That's just shitty behavior, and this poster needs a time out.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 5, 2015, 02:28 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Plenty of snark and shitty behavior to go around. Deal with it in thread not through a jury when this post is hardly inappropriate or abusive.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Really? Did the alerter not notice the nastiness in the rest of the thread? rug's post is tame in comparison.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

There is so much wood to burn.

The pope was calling efforts to legalize same sex marriage in Argentina a 'move by satan' before he was even considered for elevation to the position of pope.

He is behaving exactly as he intends to behave.


The 'edifice' is corrupt, bigoted, anti-woman and a host of other problems that would normally offend liberal/progressive sensibilities. A billion people look to this church for guidance? All the more reason to take it to task over its institutionalized bigotry.

It tends top interfere with discussions reduced to the level of "Pope Hugsandtickles".

But as usual, all he has is ad homs and attempts to bait people.

And this post is the latest case in point.

You fool no one, scottie.

but keep trying to bait people if that's all you have.

Oh, wait, you didn't actually accuse, did you.

of being a lone voice in this thread, and an ineffective one. QED. The rest is just an invention, as were all the things alleged by whoever made that poor failed alert. But then, I'm sure you had nothing to do with that, right?

So, your random musing about defending homophobic bigotry was coincidental, No, I take that back. It was "just an invention".

Now that that's cleared up, I'll just randomly muse about hypocrisy.

Let's hear it clearly, scottie, are you accusing me of homophobic bigotry?

Let's see if you have the integrity to answer.

to read my posts and quote what I actually said, instead of the made-up shit you're trying to bait me with.

Tick tock

Are you accusing me of defending homophobic bigotry or was that just a random thought passing through your mind?

to show exactly where I accused you of homophobic bigotry.

Let's hear it clearly, scottie, are you accusing me of homophobic bigotry?

You failed. And now you're moving the goalposts. Tells me all I need to know.

Have fun talking to yourself.

How nice.

Although a "yes" or a "no" would be far less weaselly.

It's always a pleasure encountering you, scottie.

A man who is the spiritual leader for a church that has more than 1 billion adherents worldwide.

Is that explicit enough for you?

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-encouraged-malta-bishop-to-speak-out-against-gay-adoption-bill/

You are, if nothing else, a loyal wingman.

Six hours before, actually. So, don't pretend this is a tag team or anything. Everyone can see exactly what you are doing here.

I'm still waiting for a response from someone else, preferably a non-weaseling response.

If I'm wrong somehow, by all means, address it.

I'll wait.

You're getting awful predictable.

of his own post 107.

Sad that he doesn't realize….everyone reading this can see that he hasn't put up one substantial response..just evasions, deflections and ad homs…and yet on and on he goes.

You should realize that's the sign of a failed argument.

I won't even mention what posting a smiley indicates.

results just in ...

On Thu Feb 5, 2015, 01:17 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Happily, this poster is a lone voice here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6182661

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster is accusing another member of
1) defending homophobic bigotry;
2) denying climate change;
3) opposing vaccination;
and 4) attacking any DUer who has a religious faith.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 5, 2015, 01:44 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Leave it alone. rug seems to be saying the Pope did not comment on the referendum, but the Pope did, however rug linked to what he said in Italian and Slovak, buried well in the document, in order to pretend it wasn't said. That's dishonest rug. Here's what the Pope said as first, and translated: "Saluto i pellegrini slovacchi e, tramite loro, desidero esprimere il mio apprezzamento all’intera Chiesa slovacca, incoraggiando tutti a proseguire nell’impegno in difesa della famiglia, cellula vitale della società ." (translated: I greet the pilgrims from Slovakia and, through them, I wish to express my appreciation to the entire Slovak church, encouraging everyone to continue their efforts in defense of the family, the vital cell of society)
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: what a stupid alert. Can you read?

one of the jury responses required more than 1 minute worth of research.

Odd.

w0w ...

and then the server side timestamp of completion, which might be 4 hours off due to timezones.

But yeah... Juror number one went above and beyond, but I doubt he or she did it in a minute. Might be worth mentioning in ATA. Could be a bug.

But thanks for the info...and for posting it right here so that everyone can see what some people will do to get a hide. Sheesh.

A similar number no?

How about that?

Try harder.

Is math just as difficult for you as public civility, or is that just a "glitch" too?

Try much harder.

And your fellow bullies, sycophants and petty tyrants don't have your back here...

But, that aside, please do go on about how Pope Frank is such a swell guy.... unless you're LGBT of course....

Speaking of "fellow bullies, sycophants and petty tyrants", I see your friends are well-represented here, like moths to a flame.

I thought you were more interested in hides and meta than religion.

Isn't that your playground?

....you should try it some time....

Why not answer the question?

....when a good deflection is close at hand...

...

Do you understand the difference between a specific political act, such as endorsing a political referendum and a long-standing doctrine which is being used as cover for political lobbying?

Before you spew your usual anti-Catholic bullshit, why don't you take a deep breath, open your eyes and exercise your brain before speaking.

For the exact same reasons I already linked you to. For all the readily-available political history of the current pope, before and after he took the position.

You deflect; 'the pope has no civil authority'. Patently untrue. The Pope is the head of a sovereign nation. The pope is also the head of a religious org with which more than 2/3rds of the country in question identify as members of. The pope is the head of a religious org that has an official doctrine on same sex marriage (agin' it). The pope is personally against it. Shocked by it. Speaks out on it regularly. Complains that it endangers the 'institution of marriage'. That same sex couples adopting children amounts to discrimination against the child in question. Speaks out in nations like Argentina, the Philippines, and now Slovakia explicitly decrying same sex marriage whenever legalization or bans pop up as political issues. He broadcasts that bigoted opinion for a reason; his opinion carries weight with the target audience.

The bigoted church doctrine, his personal bigoted opinion, and his bigoted 'professional' opinion as pope, are fully in alignment, as is the political will of the bigoted dominant-majority roman catholic Slovakian population. 90% of their parliament voted for it. I see no negative political repercussions for those members of parliament in their national political climate. Because it's drawn directly from the will of the dominant political majority in that country.
69% Roman Catholic.

Hand wave that away however you like, but I'm going to keep calling you on it when you try.


The pope is encouraging/fomenting/reinforcing bigotry. Going out of his way to speak to a majority catholic population when the issue arises politically. Don't like it? Why don't you change it instead of posting here, deflecting, and obfuscating?

One is an ideology; the other is a direct statement on a pending political act.

Each requires a different political response, which rarely involves posturing on the internet.

And I'll keep calling simple-minded bigotry when I see it posted.

With the same bigotry.

But feel free to treat it as an open invitation to spool out any pent-up anti-Catholic bigotry.

Both for marriage and for adoption by same-sex couples. It is not wandering afield to bring up that recent history to clarify the pope's position.


And, juror 1, post 70: