General Discussion

DetlefK

(16,423 posts) Thu Feb 5, 2015, 12:11 PM Feb 2015

Dear Putin-apologists: Do you want to know why the Ukrainians love the Nazis?

http://www.ukemonde.com/genocide/margolisholocaust.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars#In_the_Soviet_Union_.281917.E2.80.931991.29

Turns out, Russia facilitated a little bit of a genocide in Ukraine in the 1930s by orchestrating a famine and deliberately starving millions of Ukrainians to death. Additionally, a quota of 10,000 executions per week was set. Cannibalism became the new normal.
Nobody knows how many Ukrainians died, but the estimates range from 2 to 12 million.

And there was this tiny ethnic cleansing of Crimean Tatars in the early 20th century where half of them was killed, deported or forced to flee.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera
Stepan Bandera was a terrorist and guerilla who fought alongside the Nazis during WWII to free Ukraine from soviet influence, although their relationship was complicated. He tried to found a new ukrainian nation, but was stopped by the Nazis, who couldn't allow him to do that. He continued working with the Nazis afterwards to combat the soviet counter-attack 1944. He is still considered a hero among nationalist Ukrainians.

After living through genocide, famine, mass-executions and cannibalism, would you join forces with the enemy of your enemy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Views_on_Stalin_in_the_Russian_Federation
Joseph Stalin, the facilitator of the ukrainian genocide, is still considered a hero by about 50% of Russians.
And now, my dear Putin-apologists, please explain to me how the Ukrainians needed bribes from the US State Department to start revolting against the idea of becoming best buddies with Russia.

How would the Israelis react if the israeli government proposed a cordial alliance with a country where Hitler is hailed as a hero?

13 replies

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Highlight:

Dear Putin-apologists: Do you want to know why the Ukrainians love the Nazis? (Original Post) DetlefK Feb 2015 OP

Why leave something to chance? It worked in the past jakeXT Feb 2015 #1

So, we are back to guilt-by-association then. DetlefK Feb 2015 #2

The European CFR admits protests after 2004 became artificial with paid protesters, but not jakeXT Feb 2015 #3

"I don't know how much weight anonymous emails cited by Paul Craig Roberts can have" Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #5

Paul Craig Roberts is a racist, white-Nationalist... SidDithers Feb 2015 #6

OMG, you are so right!!! And the US-support for ISIS makes so much sense now!!! DetlefK Feb 2015 #7

The Afghanistan comparison to Ukraine is a good one, as one can hear from Brzezinski himself, but jakeXT Feb 2015 #8

the cool part is they do it to us too. reddread Feb 2015 #13

Very few Ukrainians actually "love the Nazis." Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #4

Non-starter. joshcryer Feb 2015 #9

Exactly. nt Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2015 #10

Lulz Stephen bandera hero Jesus Malverde Feb 2015 #11

Lulz Vladimir Putin hero DetlefK Feb 2015 #12

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)

1. Why leave something to chance? It worked in the past

Reply to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 12:44 PM

Feb 2015

And now, my dear Putin-apologists, please explain to me how the Ukrainians needed bribes from the US State Department to start revolting against the idea of becoming best buddies with Russia.

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

With their websites and stickers, their pranks and slogans aimed at banishing widespread fear of a corrupt regime, the democracy guerrillas of the Ukrainian Pora youth movement have already notched up a famous victory - whatever the outcome of the dangerous stand-off in Kiev.

Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)

2. So, we are back to guilt-by-association then.

Reply to jakeXT (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 12:51 PM

Feb 2015

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)

3. The European CFR admits protests after 2004 became artificial with paid protesters, but not

Reply to DetlefK (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 01:44 PM

Feb 2015

in the last one

One of the most depressing features of Ukraine’s many failures after the Orange Revolution in 2004 was that people lost the will to protest. Political demonstration even became an entirely artificial affair, with being-paid-to-protest becoming big business in Ukraine. So the return of real protests changes things dramatically. Participants at the first big demo held up signs saying “we are not paid”. The authorities are relying on the tired and discredited narrative that this is an artificial protest, ‘”paid for” by domestic oligarchs or foreign powers. At least in Kiev, everyone knows this is false. - See more at: http://www.ecfr.eu/blog/entry/reacting_to_ukraines_protests

I have heard from friends of relatives about the shenanigans in 2004, but I have no contacts for the 2013/2014 events.
And I don't know how much weight anonymous emails cited by Paul Craig Roberts can have.

A number of confirmations have come in from readers that Washington is fueling the violent protests in Ukraine with our taxpayer dollars. Washington has no money for food stamps or to prevent home foreclosures, but it has plenty of money with which to subvert Ukraine.

One reader wrote: “My wife, who is of Ukrainian nationality, has weekly contact to her parents and friends in Zhytomyr [NW Ukraine]. According to them, most protesters get an average payment of 200-300 grivna, corresponding to about 15-25 euro. As I additionally heard, one of the most active agencies and ‘payment outlets’ on EU side is the German ‘Konrad Adenauer Stiftung’, being closely connected to the CDU, i.e. Mrs. Merkel’s party.”

Johannes Loew of the Internet site elynitthria.net/ writes: “I am just back from Ukraine (I live in Munich/Germany) and I was a lot at the Maidan. Most of those people get only 100 grivna. 300 is for Students.”

..

Of course, not all of the protesters are paid. There are plenty of gullible dupes in the streets who think they are protesting Ukraine government corruption. I have heard from several. There is little doubt that the Ukraine government is corrupt. What government isn’t?

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/17/us-eu-paying-ukrainian-rioters-protesters-paul-craig-roberts/

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)

5. "I don't know how much weight anonymous emails cited by Paul Craig Roberts can have"

Reply to jakeXT (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 01:59 PM

Feb 2015

The answer to that would be (or at least should be): zero.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)

6. Paul Craig Roberts is a racist, white-Nationalist...

Reply to jakeXT (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 02:04 PM

Feb 2015

Who is a vocal supporter of hate site VDARE. Anyone using PCR as a source is legitimizing his racist views.

Shame on you.

Sid

DetlefK

(16,423 posts)

7. OMG, you are so right!!! And the US-support for ISIS makes so much sense now!!!

Reply to jakeXT (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 6, 2015, 05:46 AM

Feb 2015

1. The US supported the Afghans with weapons when they were fighting the Soviets.

2. The US wants Assad in Syria gone.

Conclusion: The US supports ISIS to get rid of Assad. The US has done this before in Afghanistan, so why wouldn't they do it now? Do you know how much US taxpayer money disappeared in Iraq? That all went into clandestine operations! It fits perfectly! And of course, there is no proof! Do you think, the CIA would be so stupid to leave a trail of evidence?
Wake up, sheeple!!!

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)

8. The Afghanistan comparison to Ukraine is a good one, as one can hear from Brzezinski himself, but

Reply to DetlefK (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 6, 2015, 06:38 AM

Feb 2015

I don't think operations like P2OG in Iraq were that expensive.

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahiddin began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan on December 24, 1979. But the reality, closely guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention

http://dgibbs.faculty.arizona.edu/brzezinski_interview

Rumsfeld's influential Defense Science Board 2002 Summer Study on Special Operations and Joint Forces in Support of Countering Terrorism says in its classified "outbrief" -- a briefing drafted to guide other Pentagon agencies -- that the global war on terrorism "requires new strategies, postures and organization."

The board recommends creation of a super-Intelligence Support Activity, an organization it dubs the Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group, (P2OG), to bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence, and cover and deception.

Among other things, this body would launch secret operations aimed at "stimulating reactions" among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction -- that is, for instance, prodding terrorist cells into action and exposing themselves to "quick-response" attacks by U.S. forces.

Such tactics would hold "states/sub-state actors accountable" and "signal to harboring states that their sovereignty will be at risk," the briefing paper declares.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/oct/27/opinion/op-arkin27/2

I believe only the Brits were stupid enough to get caught in Iraq

What had prompted this bizarre turn of events? Why had the Iraqi police forces, which normally work in close cooperation with coalition military forces, arrested two British SAS soldiers, and then handed them over to the local militia? A review of the initial on-the-ground reports leads to a clearer picture.

Fancy Dress and Big Guns Don't Mix

According to the BBC's Galpin, reporting for BBC Radio 4 (9/20/05, 18 hrs news script), Iraqi police sources in Basra told the BBC the "two British men were arrested after failing to stop at a checkpoint. There was an exchange of gunfire. The men were wearing traditional Arab clothing, and when the police eventually stopped them, they said they found explosives and weapons in their car�It's widely believed the two British servicemen were operating undercover."

Undercover? Dressed as Arabs? What were they trying to do that had caught the attention of their colleagues, the Iraqi police?

According to the Washington Post (9/20/05), "Iraqi security officials on Monday variously accused the two Britons they detained of shooting at Iraqi forces or trying to plant explosives." Reuters (9/19/05) cited police, local officials and other witnesses who confirmed that "the two undercover soldiers were arrested after opening fire on Iraqi police who approached them." Officials said that "the men were wearing traditional Arab headscarves and sitting in an unmarked car."

http://rawstory.com/news/2005/CAUGHT_RED__0923.html

reddread

(6,896 posts)

13. the cool part is they do it to us too.

Reply to jakeXT (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 6, 2015, 08:39 AM

Feb 2015

and we love it.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,182 posts)

4. Very few Ukrainians actually "love the Nazis."

Reply to DetlefK (Original post)

Thu Feb 5, 2015, 01:55 PM

Feb 2015

The time around World War II was an extremely complicated time for Ukraine, for the reasons you listed. Essentially, you had two of the most brutal, despicable individuals in modern history fighting over the same ground, with Ukraine squarely in the crossfire. It's not surprising that there were atrocities committed in that part of the world considering the evil of those two men and the power they welded.

And there were Ukrainians who foolishly allied with the Nazis in the hopes that it would help liberate them from the Soviets, and the Nazis exploited such desperation by getting such individuals to carry out unspeakable atrocities on their behalf.

There were also many Ukrainians who fought both the Soviets and the Nazis at the same time. That frequently gets overlooked

Of course, the number of people with a conscious memory of the events in Ukraine the 1930s and 1940s grows smaller and smaller by the day. I reckon that the amount of living Ukrainians who collaborated with the Nazis is quite small.

Of course, you do have some neo-Nazis in Ukraine. But you have neo-Nazis living everywhere, in this country, in Europe and in Russia as well. It's hardly a sizable minority sentiment in Ukraine, let alone a majority. That can be said for most any country, actually.

Even the nationalistic nostalgia surrounding Bandera is not focused on his apparent corroboration with the Nazis (which from what I understand actually soured quickly) but strictly is based on Ukrainian nationalistic grounds.