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forest444

(5,902 posts)
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 01:38 PM Feb 2015

The dark side of Winston Churchill’s legacy no one should forget

Washington Post
Published February 3, 2015
By Ishaan Tharoor

The dark side of Winston Churchill’s legacy no one should forget

There’s no Western statesmen — at least in the English-speaking world — more routinely lionized than Winston Churchill. Last week marked a half century since his funeral, an occasion that itself led to numerous commemorations and paeans to the British Bulldog, whose moral courage and patriotism helped steer his nation through World War II.

The power of his name is so great that it launches a thousand quotations, many of which are apocryphal. At its core, Churchill’s myth serves as a ready-made metaphor for boldness and leadership, no matter how vacuous the context in which said metaphor is deployed.

But there’s another side to Churchill’s politics and career that should not be forgotten amid the endless parade of eulogies. To many outside the West, he remains an unvarnished racist and a stubborn imperialist, forever on the wrong side of history. Churchill’s detractors point to his well-documented bigotry, articulated often with shocking callousness and contempt. “I hate Indians,” he once trumpeted. “They are a beastly people with a beastly religion.” He referred to Palestinians as “barbaric hordes who ate little but camel dung.” When quashing insurgents in Sudan in the earlier days of his imperial career, Churchill boasted of killing three “savages.” Contemplating restive populations in northwest Asia, he infamously lamented the “squeamishness” of his colleagues, who were not in “favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilized tribes.”

Churchill’s racism was wrapped up in his Tory zeal for empire, one which irked his wartime ally, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt. As a junior member of Parliament, Churchill had cheered on Britain’s plan for more conquests, insisting that its “Aryan stock is bound to triumph.”

India, Britain’s most important colonial possession, most animated Churchill. He despised the Indian independence movement and its spiritual leader, Mahatma Gandhi, whom he described as “half-naked, seditious fakir.” Most notoriously, Churchill presided over the hideous 1943 famine in Bengal, where some 3 million Indians perished, largely as a result of British imperial mismanagement. Churchill was both indifferent to the Indian plight and even mocked the millions suffering, chuckling over the culling of a population that bred “like rabbits.”

Leopold Amery, Churchill’s own Secretary of State for India, likened his boss’ understanding of India’s problems to King George III’s apathy for the Americas. Amery vented in his private diaries, writing “on the subject of India, Winston is not quite sane” and that he didn’t “see much difference between (Churchill’s) outlook and Hitler’s.”

At: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/02/03/the-dark-side-of-winston-churchills-legacy-no-one-should-forget/

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The dark side of Winston Churchill’s legacy no one should forget (Original Post) forest444 Feb 2015 OP
Is there anyone who approaches importance who doesn't have a dark side? TreasonousBastard Feb 2015 #1
I've never heard of a dark side of President Obama philosslayer Feb 2015 #2
Maybe, but not for the lack of trying... TreasonousBastard Feb 2015 #4
I agree with that wholeheartedly madokie Feb 2015 #26
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #33
Welcome to DU! zappaman Feb 2015 #34
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #36
blocked by congress, as you well know uppityperson Feb 2015 #39
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #40
too bad the repubs had enough votes to block most everything, eh? uppityperson Feb 2015 #41
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #43
Too bad that muslim kenyan didn't use his mind control powers and make them do what he wanted? uppityperson Feb 2015 #44
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #46
Wait. Are you saying President Obama used those mind powers to get people to vote against what uppityperson Feb 2015 #47
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #51
OK, so you're not an Obama fan. Terra Alta Feb 2015 #45
Post removed Post removed Feb 2015 #48
So you like conservatives like Churchill? greatauntoftriplets Feb 2015 #50
would you have been happier with McCain/Palin or Rmoney? Terra Alta Feb 2015 #52
It's worth mentioning because most people really aren't aware of his more sordid legacies. forest444 Feb 2015 #8
Well, there's a dark side, and then there's a Dark Side DerekG Feb 2015 #49
Oh, I agree... TreasonousBastard Feb 2015 #53
I think I get it. Ye who is without sin may cast the first stone. Dreamer Tatum Feb 2015 #3
People are complicated. Brickbat Feb 2015 #5
And he smoked cigars. Waiting For Everyman Feb 2015 #6
Yes. And I bet he smoked them during meetings of the War Cabinet. Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #17
Lol, cwydro Feb 2015 #38
He was a conservative. What do you expect? denverbill Feb 2015 #7
Gallipoli tenderfoot Feb 2015 #9
And I wonder how many millions Snooty Dave will blow on the "commemoration" this time. forest444 Feb 2015 #10
Yep. Only because was the grandson of the Duke of Marlborough LittleBlue Feb 2015 #54
not suprised, im glad to see theese important facts gaining visibility. TimeToEvolve Feb 2015 #11
YES. Remember all those countries Churchill invaded when he returned to power in 1951? Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #16
Egypt and Kenya certainly did forest444 Feb 2015 #27
Not that much different in those respects to his near-contemporary Teddy Roosevelt Spider Jerusalem Feb 2015 #12
Both had dark sides; but with a difference: forest444 Feb 2015 #18
And Mussolini made the trains run on time. Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #20
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #35
We should pretty much dig up all of those folks, put them on trial, and hang their corpses (nt) Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #19
Lots of admired persons from history have sordid pasts. Margaret Sanger of PP, anyone? ARMYofONE Feb 2015 #13
George Washington was a racist slaveholder. Jefferson was a racist slaveholder who raped his slaves. Nye Bevan Feb 2015 #14
Mother Theresa actually was awful. smirkymonkey Feb 2015 #30
one of the ways they would justify taking over other nations JI7 Feb 2015 #15
He's high on the list of the worst monsters of the 20th Century cpwm17 Feb 2015 #21
+1 forest444 Feb 2015 #22
Thread winner malaise Feb 2015 #24
Truth, as Churchill himself once admitted, forest444 Feb 2015 #25
Message auto-removed Name removed Feb 2015 #37
Churchill one of the worst monsters of the 20th century? cwydro Feb 2015 #42
He was an arsehole. sibelian Feb 2015 #23
He hurt a lot of good people with the Gold Standard in the 1920s, and it probably didn't bother him forest444 Feb 2015 #31
Great men are almost always bad men. Lord Acton Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2015 #28
You left out the context: forest444 Feb 2015 #29
Complications of a simple point in time seveneyes Feb 2015 #32

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
1. Is there anyone who approaches importance who doesn't have a dark side?
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 01:57 PM
Feb 2015

Theodore Roosevelt enjoyed killing Native Americans, Woodrow Wilson was about as racist as it gets, I remember Mother Theresa being trashed over something (probably an abortion position)...

OTOH, I heard Hitler liked kittens.

It is the sum total of a person's life that counts, and often, as in Churchill's case, an overwhelming event. Churchill was generally considered a fuckup until he happened to be the right person in the right place at the right time to be the voice of inspiration for the British people as they fought for their lives. That made up for a lot.

 

philosslayer

(3,076 posts)
2. I've never heard of a dark side of President Obama
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 02:08 PM
Feb 2015

His policies may not be to everyone's liking, but he truly appears to be a good man. Perhaps the best-hearted man we've had as President.

Response to philosslayer (Reply #2)

Response to zappaman (Reply #34)

Response to uppityperson (Reply #39)

Response to uppityperson (Reply #41)

Response to uppityperson (Reply #44)

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
47. Wait. Are you saying President Obama used those mind powers to get people to vote against what
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 11:23 PM
Feb 2015

he wanted? That too bad "we didn't get enough Democratic votes" was because he used his mighty brain powers?

muslin, kenyan, brain powers=trifecta!

Response to uppityperson (Reply #47)

Response to Terra Alta (Reply #45)

forest444

(5,902 posts)
8. It's worth mentioning because most people really aren't aware of his more sordid legacies.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 03:39 PM
Feb 2015

And the writer neglected to mention his genocidal actions toward the Irish, Kurds, Kenyans, and others (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/not-his-finest-hour-the-dark-side-of-winston-churchill-2118317.html). It can even be argued, against working-class Brits themselves (http://lachlan.bluehaze.com.au/churchill/gold_standard_1925/).

It's one thing, you see, to privately struggle with pettiness and hatred. It's quite another to use one's position of power to act out on them - however much the media glosses over it after the fact (which in a way makes it even worse).

DerekG

(2,935 posts)
49. Well, there's a dark side, and then there's a Dark Side
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 11:25 PM
Feb 2015

Churchill harbored an imperial bloodlust that shocked many of his contemporaries, and this is to be distinguished from, say, FDR--who possessed an innate decency despite questionable policies (e.g., Japanese internment, saturation bombing).

Ever wonder why the British people decided to oust their great hero after WWII was won? It's because he scared the crap out of a lot of even-tempered people.

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
53. Oh, I agree...
Fri Feb 6, 2015, 04:49 AM
Feb 2015

If it wasn't for WWII, he would have gone down in history as a minor wanker. His prior Foreign Service (or whatever they call it over there) service was mediocre at best and he suffered being recalled for whatever euphemism they have for idiocy.

George Washington, btw, was in a similar predicament before the Revolution. Some say his indecision and silliness while in the British Army was a direct cause for the Iroquois Nation to change sides and go over to the French-- making it the the French and Indian War. (The Iroquois war chief was rumored to have asked "Who is this idiot they sent us?&quot He was stripped of rank over that one. Winning the revolution saved his ass, although many historians don't think he had much to do with winning it.

Dreamer Tatum

(10,926 posts)
3. I think I get it. Ye who is without sin may cast the first stone.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 02:10 PM
Feb 2015

Yet somehow the world had the wherewithal to defeat Germany and Japan. Hm. Wonder if we should have.

Waiting For Everyman

(9,385 posts)
6. And he smoked cigars.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 02:13 PM
Feb 2015

There's nothing more fun than smearing dead people. There should be an award for that, this guy might win it.

I'm sure Hitler would've been much nicer to all those groups. And without Churchill, this moral critic might very well be writing an article to that effect, in German.

Just when I think this world can't possibly get more lame, it does.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
17. Yes. And I bet he smoked them during meetings of the War Cabinet.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 06:35 PM
Feb 2015

Imagine how unpleasant that would have been for any non-smokers present. I'm sure he didn't even think of setting up a special, separately ventilated room where he could go to smoke his cigars so that the second-hand smoke would not annoy his colleagues.

What an evil man.

denverbill

(11,489 posts)
7. He was a conservative. What do you expect?
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 02:38 PM
Feb 2015

Conservatives are to a large degree racist, ethnocentric, nationalistic and imperialistic.

Half the conservatives I know today say crap similar to this regularly. His characterization of Indians was very little different from Hitler's characterization of Jews and his attitude towards using poison gas on 'uncivilized tribes' was the same attitude Mussolini had towards the Ethiopians he used it on.

Frankly, I'd never heard these quotes but I can't say they surprised me at all.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
54. Yep. Only because was the grandson of the Duke of Marlborough
Fri Feb 6, 2015, 05:15 AM
Feb 2015

and a wealthy American socialite mother.

TimeToEvolve

(303 posts)
11. not suprised, im glad to see theese important facts gaining visibility.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 05:57 PM
Feb 2015

conservatives and psychopaths are two heavily overlapping sets.

i like to think that the only reason that Churchill opposed Hitler was because he was trying to cut in on Churchill's action, which was taking over the world.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
16. YES. Remember all those countries Churchill invaded when he returned to power in 1951?
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 06:32 PM
Feb 2015

The whole world heaved a huge sigh of relief when that megalomaniac left office in 1955.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
27. Egypt and Kenya certainly did
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 08:41 PM
Feb 2015

And Eisenhower did too, at least when Churchill's protégé Anthony Eden left office in disgrace after the Suez Crisis.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
12. Not that much different in those respects to his near-contemporary Teddy Roosevelt
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 06:13 PM
Feb 2015

who referred to Native Americans as "savages who delight in cruelty for cruelty's sake" and wrote approvingly of Houston Stewart Chamberlain's "Foundations of the Nineteenth Century" (a book that was tremendously influential on Hitler and Nazi ideas about race). He was also supportive of theories of eugenics (he wrote that "society has no business permitting degenerates to reproduce&quot , believed in the racial superiority of the "Anglo-Saxons", and was an unquestionable imperialist (he was one of the people agitating for war with Spain as assistant secretary of the Navy).

forest444

(5,902 posts)
18. Both had dark sides; but with a difference:
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 06:35 PM
Feb 2015

Teddy Roosevelt pursued a progressive agenda, passing the nation's first real labor laws, environmental laws, product safety and financial regulations, and anti-trust/monopoly laws. The economy and living standards both grew to record levels, and both the elite and the general population benefited.

Churchill quashed labor rights and reimposed the Gold Standard knowing full well it would benefit his social class at the expense of just about everyone else, who would have to live with sharp restrictions on currency, credit, and trade competitiveness. The British economy consequently spent most of the 1920s in recession, and actually grew much more in the 1930s (after his policies were reversed) than in the '20s.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
20. And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 06:38 PM
Feb 2015

I guess the point you are making is that bad aspects of a person can be counteracted by good things that they do. Like, I don't know, saving the world, would be one example.

Response to forest444 (Reply #18)

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
14. George Washington was a racist slaveholder. Jefferson was a racist slaveholder who raped his slaves.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 06:28 PM
Feb 2015

Lincoln was perfectly willing to retain slavery if it preserved the union. FDR interned Japanese-Americans.

Not many people were saints. Even Mother Theresa has her critics.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
30. Mother Theresa actually was awful.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 09:23 PM
Feb 2015

She actually allowed people to suffer needlessly when she could have helped alleviate their suffering, believing that suffering was a gift from god. Of course, when she was ill she repaired to only the best California clinics. Don't get me started.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
21. He's high on the list of the worst monsters of the 20th Century
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 08:09 PM
Feb 2015

but since he massacred and oppressed dark-skinned Third Worlders, many don't care or make excuses.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
22. +1
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 08:13 PM
Feb 2015

Plus he was theatrical, English, and blue-blooded - which in the eyes of many (especially right-wingers) is akin to Sainthood.

Response to cpwm17 (Reply #21)

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
23. He was an arsehole.
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 08:13 PM
Feb 2015

Loads of people in Britain hated him. You just don't hear their side of the story, that's all.

My upstairs neighbour worked in munitions during WWII. She called him "fatty".

Pretty useful guy, but an arsehole.

forest444

(5,902 posts)
31. He hurt a lot of good people with the Gold Standard in the 1920s, and it probably didn't bother him
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 09:40 PM
Feb 2015

"The best argument against democracy," he famously said "is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

forest444

(5,902 posts)
29. You left out the context:
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 09:08 PM
Feb 2015

which is the first part of the aphorism. That is, that "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

I should add that deeds make men great, not theatrics. Churchill was heavy on the latter, but his record on the former left much to be desired. The ruinous Gold Standard, his genocidal policies toward the Irish and the colonies, his forcing FDR to delay the Invasion of Normandy for over a year in the hope Hitler could take out the Soviet Union first, and the Suez Crisis - all testament to how much hype can make up for bad faith.

Great motivational speaker, I'll give him that.

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
32. Complications of a simple point in time
Thu Feb 5, 2015, 09:54 PM
Feb 2015

Change is a result of time. Cheating to solve for time is harder than living in it.

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