and they ahve four children together.

I think it was more over sour grapes at having lost 42-3.

But heck, the rules were broken, so thems the rules.

...he's inoculated, I guess.

Like I said, sour grapes, but rules were broken.

and what is the racial make up of his town?
maybe he is just a sore loser. or maybe that loss was especially bitter because it was a bunch of black kids. maybe he didnt notice so much, but maybe his team was super pissed and he got caught up in that.

till they check out the other teams, i am pissed.
how and why these kids ended up on this team needs to be looked at. as a parent, i would have been happy with the local team unless i had a reason. maybe it was strictly ambition. but in one of the most segregated cities in the country, i have to suspect that race is in the mix.

and the (white) sergeant in charge was married to a black woman.

Yet that sergeant was hardest and most racist towards the other blacks in the unit.

Sort of like a dog and cat growing up together.

That dog will protect that one cat but will chase down and try to kill every other cat in the neighborhood.

doesnt mean you arent a racist. men like women to be "inferior" and controllable.

And old HS classmate is married to a black woman and posts the most racist anti- Obama garbage.

which was my daughter's experience. every time they disagreed on something it turned into slamming her race.

and even if the coach is, personally, not, that doesnt mean that the team, as a whole, doesnt have a problem. i want to know why these parents wanted their kids on this team. surely then did not know they were going to win. they probably just wanted what they thought was best for the kids.
if i were the jrw coach, and someone came to me and said- i know xyz team is not gonna let my kid play, or i know my kid will be harassed, what coach wouldnt tell them to find an address that they could use?

They don't get to break the rules just because they want to, and then act shocked and pissed because there are consequences.

When you cheat, you're accepting that chance that you'll get caught and be punished. I feel bad for the kids, but taking away their wins was the right call.

what if there was a reason, a good reason, that they didnt want their kids to play on the other teams. people assume it is about winning. what if that is not the point at all? what if the other teams looked the other way for good reason?
i am looking at this as a parent whose kids played ball. there are some coaches you didnt want within 100 yards of your kid. and everybody knew it, including the other coaches.

i just really dont see why the parents have no say in where there kids play.

Teams, including parents, don't get to make up their own rules.

they had a try-out day where they put you through various drills - and then some kids would make the majors and some the minors and the coaches of each league would get to draft players in some sort of lottery.

Usually we were on vacation during the try out day, so I was given the lowest ranking

Somehow I always ended up on the last place team. Once we got beat 18-0 and the paper recorded that I was the only person on my team to get a base hit. One year my team kept forfeiting by not having enough players at a bunch of games. So the team was broken up and we were sent to other teams. What team was I sent to? The team that USED to be 2nd to last place and was now last place now that my old team didn't exist.

But I think that was the year I pitched a winning game against the 2nd place Yankees. I was the 2nd relief pitcher, but got the win since we were losing when I came in.

as hard as they did the African American team.

I'd be willing to be that if they did they'd find most of the other teams weren't entirely clean either.

The Jackie Robinson team was cleared twice by the Little League, twice.

Then the sore looser, 42 to 3 was it, told them to keep digging. Well I say dig on everyone else or it damn sure is racism.

I guarantee you fudging those boundary rules is not uncommon. Like the OP mentioned about the white parents who fudged boundary rules so their kids wouldn't have to play with the African American kids.

And don't you just hate sore losers. I read he even admitted that there were other teams that did it but they didn't win the championship.

If not, there is no reason to investigate them.

the team that complained admitted they did it too. and it is an open secret that this is common. so why just the black kids get nailed. should make you go hmmm. but, maybe you dont have a hmmmmer.

Do you have a link to back up your assertions?

to back up your own almighty self righteous assertions, accusations & judgements?

I provided the links in response to your other post.

It's bordering on hilarious that some people just can't accept that this team cheated, even though I've heard of no one associated with this team denying that they cheated since the title was stripped.

But it's absolutely hilarious that so many people can't accept the truth that this team was led by a group of adult cheaters.

Stripping the title isn't about race, it's about not allowing a team that didn't compete fairly to retain the title.

of all anglo saxon kid players had been unknowingly manipulated by some greedy adults running an entertainment/sports corporate entity? would you strip away their title as well?

Do the same thing, and I'll say the same thing - strip the title.

The rightful champions, the team out in Las Vegas - if they're investigated and found to have cheated, I'd say strip it from them as well.

Because it isn't about race, it's about playing by the rules.

How about you? Would you favor stripping the title from an all white team under the same circumstances?

I'd hmmmmer in the evening, all over this land!

Sorry, mopinko--I couldn't pass up the straight line--but I do agree with you on this issue!

said they did the same thing?

Thanks.

One kid was recruited from Lynwood (45.4% black).
One from south Holland (50.8% black).
One from Dolton: (82.4% black)

What's more interesting is that, though these are areas with a near majority or more of black residents, they're not poor.

Dolton median household income is $48K and the poverty rate is <7% (lower than the US rate).
South Holland median household income is even higher, $60K, with a poverty rate of <5%.
Lynwood median household income = $59K, with a poverty rate of <6%.

US median household income 2012 = $51.9K. US Poverty rate = 14.5% (2013)


So it's looking more and more like good black players from wealthier largely black suburbs were recruited, to the detriment of the poorer black kids who actually lived in the southside.

and it's probably because suburban little league has the benefit of more adult involvement, more money for equipment, better facilities, etc. so all else being equal, suburban players are likely to be more skilled than poor urban kids.

Anyway, so far your story about black kids from white suburbs wanting to play with the southside cause they're afraid of racism isn't holding up very well.

Running up the score like that should not be done in Little League.

He's not a "sore loser".

But they broke the rules, or the coaches did at any rate.

they called it on the slaughter rule.

when games get out of hand?

I would think that the umps should have called a game like that.

it's not up to the kids to go out there and not play their best.
i mean, wtf.

who even admitted that other teams had fudged boundary issues but since they didn't get to the championship round it didn't matter.

Guess he couldn't stand to lose that bad even though the game went only TWO INNINGS.

Thanks for that info. I didn't know that the game was that short. Just think of the score if it had went the full 6 innings.

why did they play the entire season and go through the finals and awards and trip to the white house - before the "scrutiny" was reported??????? it is about race. an all black team at the white house with a black president giving them special treatment ... some people can't stand for such a thing to happen.

all of the kids on the team fell within the boundaries. It was only when they returned after the LL World Series, and signs in far away suburbs were welcoming home their individual players that neighboring leagues realized that players had been pulled from within their boundaries. It was at that point that LL started digging into the matter and found that the boundary map submitted by JRW was invalid, as it had been redrawn to extend into other leagues' boundaries without the consent of those leagues.

links to photos and statement of welcoming banners and parents, and boundary maps.

If you're actually interested in reading the timeline, the link is below. It mentions the "public accolades" given to alleged out of boundary players, and also provides info on the falsified boundary maps.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20150211/roseland/jackie-robinson-west-timeline-key-dates-little-league-scandal

Dec. 16, 2014 — DNAinfo Chicago's Mark Konkol reports that a suburban league has asked Little League International to review the eligibility of the players, arguing that public accolades offered to the players after the U.S. title exposed many didn't live in the narrow South Side boundaries from where the team is supposed to draw.

But, amidst the excitement, there were signs that something was off, in some cases literal signs.

Like the one the mayor of south suburban Lynwood put outside village hall to celebrate the village’s "own" Jackie Robinson West player. Or the congratulatory posts on social media from Illinois House Rep. Robin Kelly, calling out two players from South Holland and another from Dolton, all outside the city limits.

thank you.
i agree with the rev. jesse jackson's defense of the team & their parents.
the team was not caught cheating. the team played the games. i refer to the kids. but go ahead and keep blaming the kids.
i stand with the team players and their parents.

Oh that's right, I didn't.

While the players didn't cheat, the adults did, which resulted in a team that would not have been able to compete, had the truth been known. No way a team that earned the title by being stacked with out of boundary players should be permitted to keep that title.

Stand with Rev. Jackson all you want - he's human, meaning he can be wrong too. And in this case, he is wrong, IMO. I hope LL International stands strong against these ridiculous charges of racism, and don't give the title back.

that's my mountain.

They broke the rules so, it is what it is.I think its more of a story because coaches and patents used kids to cheat.

and the team was disqualified. I just hope the team that are now champions get the same treatment the other team got.

Thank you for being so forthcoming about your attitude towards the strict rules of Little League.

suppose the parents and kids were the ones who sought out the team. does that change things?
suppose those kids had played in their designated team, and had suffered for their race. does that change things?

Wondering why you keep pushing with fantasy racism where it doesn't exist. The adults cheated, end of story.

lines on a map is why these kids lived where they did in the first place. the color line lives.

were *black*, just like the kids in s-side Chicago. so I don't know why you're talking about color lines.

team?

because what I read put it on the coaches, and how I interpreted it was that the suburbs are richer, thus the kids in sports get better/more consisten training and equipment, thus are more likely, all else being equal, to become better players.

It's not like those suburban kids couldn't have joined the little league teams in their own neighborhoods, so why would their parents be making special arrangements to join JRW?


JRW’s title garnered national acclaim for the team due to the uniqueness of its roster—an all-black squad hailing from Chicago's embattled South Side. And it was the city—its athletes, community leaders, politicians, the mayor, the president—that embraced the team as a beacon of sorts.

Little League’s investigation led it to conclude that JRW officials knowingly fielded players who lived outside the team’s residential boundaries and then tried to cover up their deception, a violation of league rules. In effect, the claim is that JRW sought to field a superteam...

“I grew up and played in JRW until I was 10 years old. Bill Haley ran a first-class organization. JRW has played an integral role in Rosemoor’s rebuilding. We were down to one team in 2011. JRW took us in and had interleague play with us. When Rosemoor went into the district tournament, Rosemoor wouldn’t have been able to play....

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2362111-claims-of-hypocrisy-in-the-jackie-robinson-west-controversy

towns in illinois. they werent from rich suburbs where they had opportunities.

that "superteam" shit may be the claim, but i have seen no evidence that it is the case.

and i doubt that the coaches are going to come out and say- well, we all knew coach soandso was a racist asshole, so when a kid came to us that should have played for him, we tried to find a way.
but this being chicago, i find my supposition more than just possible.

than south side Chicago. some quite a bit wealthier.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6240814

PS Dolton, 82% black, has a median household income just shy of the US median. It's not 'poor' by any measure, in fact, it has a lower % of residents in poverty than the US average.

It has a higher median household income (by about $12K) and a lower poverty rate (6% v 16%) than the majority white town I live in.

Dolton's also wealthier than south side Chicago.

Well, when you break those rules you're cheating. See the problem?

Just last summer also. Team from Georgia. Team had one black kid. I suppose that was racism also. It was a feel good story and some adults had to go and screw it up.

different story. this has never happened before.
so....

A team from the Phillipines had their LLWS title stripped due to putting together a national all star team. Definitely a boundaries issue such as what JRWLL violated. The other team to have their LLWS wins taken away was the team from Bronx, NY when it was discovered that Danny Almonte was actually 14 ysr old. He was sensational at the LLWS, pitching a perfect game. The team from Georgia last summer, which didn't make it to the LLWS, was stripped of it's GA state title for violating a teams rule for having no more than 8 of the 14 team members being 12 yrs old. They had 10 players on their roster as 12 yr olds, more than the max of 8. http://www.cbs46.com/story/26195315/peachtree-city-little-league-team-stripped-of-state-championship

I think going forward LL has to put in place better tools for local leagues and districts to utilize in regard to following these geographic boundaries. It is blatantly obvious that these adults from JRWLL violated the boundaries of their league and district. Too many people on here and elsewhere(Jessie Jackson) have reacted by accusing racism. Absolutely shameful and uncalled for. LL actually bent over backwards to try and look the other way initially, but when it became blatantly obvious, they had to act. Some of these kids lived up to 20 miles outside of their league's boundary. This is not a rural league, where you'd expect a somewhat large area. It was urban and suburban Chicago, where boundaries are much smaller due to larger population numbers.

i want to know why they did that. racism is rampant here, especially some of these burbs. did those parents have past bad experiences? did their local team have a reputation for racism?

i think the racial layers run deep.

This was the direct result of the actions taken by the adults. http://www.si.com/more-sports/2015/02/11/jackie-robinson-west-vacates-title-llws
"Jackie Robinson West, the United States champion at the 2014 Little League World Series, agreed to vacate its title after knowingly violating residency rules, Little League announced Wednesday. Little League Baseball opened an investigation to determine if the Chicago-based team used players that resided outside of the geographic area that it represents. An investigation showed that the team used an inaccurate boundary map and met with outside neighborhoods and districts in Illinois to recruit players to build a competitive team.

Little League Baseball said it was alerted of a potential problem back in September when a league official from a neighboring district in Illinois expressed concern about residency problems with Jackie Robinson West."

that it is just as likely that the parents came to the coach and/or that playing on an all black team was a deciding factor for the parents.
but the bottom line is that obviously a parent was willing to drive 20 miles x 2 x how many games and practices so that their kids could play for this team and this coach.
i will stand by that until ALL the facts come out, including who approached who.
from what i have seen of the team, self esteem and pride, and escape from the world you see in those comments could well have been the actual motivation.

if it turns out that those kids who were out of the boundaries had experiences or reasons to believe they would face racism if they played on their assigned teams, will that change your defense of some lines on a map? maybe the other teams initially signed off because they didnt want those black kids on their team. what would you say then?
obviously, the other teams that were willing to support the changes to the map had a reason.

Sad you're doing incalculable harm to the real fight against racism and bigotry by pushing this fantasy. Fight it where it exists for real. Creating it where it isn't is surely harmful to the cause.

But the OP doesn't believe in following rules generally.

lines on a map v children being cherished for who they are, and being affirmed? yeah, fuck your lines on a map.
and one of these kids became homeless during this time. what do you do with him? kick him off the team? quite possibly the best part of his life at the time?
ya, no.

You don't believe in following rules in general, whether kids are involved or not.

well isnt that special.
since i didnt break any rules, except to piss off the wrong people, maybe that's why i get it.

No, not at all. I've read your posts about your legal issues as they unfolded.

so......
my day in court will come. i will be sure to post about it for all my followers.
especially those that live in caves.

And caves? I don't even know what that means.

a team of ringers can play awesome together and that will be its own reward.

BUT if they want to win a Little League trophy, that trophy is given out to teams that win while following a set of rules and procedures.

Alerting. Personal attack.

It didn't seem to bother the OP. LMAO.

but i live here, and i know just how racist of a place this is.
till i hear otherwise from the parents, i am reserving judgement.

you, on the other hand, refuse to even consider that it could be racism at the root of this. says plenty about you.

That seems to be what is wanted by your statement. The team deserved forfeiture and is not about race but rules you want to get rid of. Well the rules needed to be questioned before the season started.

or else you misunderstood my reply. I'm in favor of the rule, and I think the parents and coaches cheated. In my opinion, the team deserved to have their title stripped, although it's sad for the kids.

Sorry about that. A heart for your trouble!

is jump out from behind a tree and yell "boo"
get real. people worked around it, and gave these kids a chance.

I've seen a whole lot of wild speculation about what COULD have happened and how this COULD be racism, so let me add this...

If this team had followed all the rules and lost in the finals to a white team that had recruited from outside it's district, would you feel exactly the same way about the rules (bfd)?

white kids have choices. black kids dont. suburban kids have tons of choices, good programs, well funded facilities, lots of coaches.
these kids didnt. that is my whole point. it is my supposition that these kids ended up on this team because their options were constrained by their race. and by the racism that they would have faced on their "home" teams.
note i said supposition. but i know how lines on maps get drawn in chicago, and lines are about race.

The first one is "why this is being investigated". Titles have been stripped before, although probably a lot less often than cheating actually happens. No one seems to be arguing they didn't do what they are being accused of, so you can't really argue they didn't do anything wrong. When someone makes cheating claims, what is Little League supposed to do, ignore it? As to why ALL teams aren't investigated, when people cheat and still lose, no one bothers to investigate. That's not just baseball, that's life in general.

The second one is "why did this happen in the first place". Why were the kids playing out of district? Was it because the coaches wanted to put together a winning team, or because several children living outside the district didn't like the coaches they would have played for in their own district and with no recruitment, all sought to play on this same other team? I've never seen a coach that didn't want to put together a winning team, but other than your comments about how racist a city Chicago is, and your speculation about how these kids MIGHT have not liked the situations they had in their own district, I haven't seen anything to indicate that this was actually the case. Maybe I missed it in all your comments, but if you want to continue to make that argument, you're going to need more than "well, it COULD have happened".

If another team had beat the Chicago team (and assuming they were following the rules) and it turns out THEY had recruited from outside the district, would you still think this was no big deal?

Lets hope there aren't many parents like you on other teams.

What the fuck are you teaching your kids when you say, "I want you on this team, but you have to lie and tell them you're from this other neighborhood. M'kay son? You lie real good for mommy, k?"

Disgusting.

if it means that my black son doesnt have to play for a racist coach.

I've read many articles on this JRWLL situation, and nowhere have I seen anyone mention racist coaches. Can't you just stop with the faux racist accusations?

maybe i know a little more about how things work around here than you. try that on for size.
those lines are not arbitrary. they are about white teams and black teams.
this is a frighteningly segregated city.

Why don't you provide something other than your own opinion, like some links to back up your accusations.

Rules? Fuck em.

Rules don't apply to you, if you claim racism.

do what is right, not what you are told.

I think it was about cheating.

to accept the consequences of actions.

Sometimes it just isn't everyone else's fault.

till i hear about the choices those kids faced, i am not assuming it was all about winning.
i want to know why someone would drive 20 miles x a bazillion for their kid to play on that team. knowing my hometown, i cant believe that race and racism wasnt a factor.

Nice.

yeah, fuck your lines on a map.

because of the cheating? Don't you think they deserve what's right and best for them?

there is absolutely no evidence that the actual abilities of these kids had anything to do with any of this.

to do with it. They recruited good players, not just anyone who wanted to join. Duh.