Well there's almost nothing left of the party, so the turd ways victory was a pyrrhic one.

Rec

'papers', it is clear they intended to take over the party, to try to marginalize the 'left' which they despise even more than the right does, and only pay attention to the Left during election seasons, but rather than try to win over their votes, they use 'fear' tactics such as, 'the SC is what you need to think of'. Well yes, we do think of it. Look at it in fact, this is what YOUR policies did regarding the SC'.

For a long time the Left knew something was wrong but didn't know what. They held their noses, with promises of 'okay, we won the House, but that is not enough, we need the Senate and the WH'. So we got all that for them, then they told us to 'STFU' because our 'ideas are retarded' and much more.

NOW they are BLAMING the Left for their losses. The gall to think that people are going to keep voting for their carefully chosen Third Way candidates, then being told to STFU about serious issues which they are handing over to the Republicans, like SS.

They may get what they wanted, total control over the party, but without the Left that isn't going to win elections for them.

The Republicans used to push right and the Democrats used to push back.

maybe most people, consider themselves reasonable when they stick close to the middle. Moving it so far to the right has been the most important thing RW has done.

..... our party has been hijacked yet so many can't understand why some of us refuse to vote for these people any more.

If the country is going to be dragged to hell, I'd prefer the dragging be done by Republicans, not Republicans masquerading as Democrats.

#1 if Democrats are allowed to stay on this track we will have no feasible vehicle to move any other agenda.

#2 We will end up taking the blame for shit we are supposed to be against.

#3 The longer we dig this insane hole the more difficult the climb out is.

#4 The longer we keep marching on the fewer even aspire to, envision, recall, or even comprehend anything different.

#5 To do so irresponsibly kicks an ever growing can down the road to a resource poorer future.

#6 Doing so continues to shrink the leftward side of the effective political spectrum.

#7 Doing so validates the right and tells any one paying attention that we don't even believe in what we preach.

#8 It is stupid because it doesn't work no matter how hard everyone claps for Tinkerbelle.

...it much better and more comprehensively than I could!

Perfectly said sabrina

Well said, sabrina 1.

more eloquently that I ever could/have!

I'm losing my enthusiasm.

I'm not sure if the right wing of the Democratic Party cares if 'our' side wins. The corporate overlords achieve the same goals if Republicans are elected.

count on ourselves is clear. It's also empowering. The capacity for brutality and exploitation by conservatives and the corruption of Democrats by money and power in the last 25 years is evident and increasing. But right wingers have unwisely discounted the patience, strength, power in numbers and unity of issues on the progressive side.

The need to resolve or confront opposing ideologies over the future direction of the US is imminent. To continue to prevaricate and delay action needed to counter the visible degradation of our democracy, our way of life and the environment is fatal. Well proven is the inherent belief in human ability to solve problems; so a path to combat the dangers we face is assured. Man made crises can be altered by man.

Monumental obstacles to human progress have been overcome in the past. The heroes of our War for Independence, of the Civil Rights era and freedom fighters throughout history are our inspiration and template. I share widespread faith in human intelligence, integrity and the courage to do what's right. We have no other course. This isn't working. Posterity's survival is at stake; we can't let future generations down. The many serious challenges left facing young people are unfair and unprecedented. American democracy must survive and will survive.

Thank you.

I think particularly around the Iraq war this issue really hit me; the Iraqi war protesters were right on almost every point, and yet they were still marginalized by the country and by their own party. And I saw that as one who was wrong about the war (I didn't like it but supported it on the grounds that getting rid of Saddam would probably do some good (it turns out I was wrong)).

Bryant

The neocons wanted the region destabilized and BushCo with a little help from some Democrats obliged them.

Here is how you do the "angry left" hokey-pokey

Dance caller: Angry left!

(You look to your left and take two steps right.)

Dance caller: Angry left!

(You look to your left and take two steps right.)

Dance caller: Angry left!

(You look to your left and take two steps right.)

Meanwhile everyone who *was* on your right was shoved clear on out the door an hour ago!

And that's how you do the "angry left" hokey-pokey! *jazz hands*

Brings to mind a very clear image.

Along with this denial of reality comes an absence of personal accountability.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/opinion/paul-krugman-cranking-up-for-2016.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region®ion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=1

Sums up the right-wing. -- absence of personal accountability.

in control of both groups really. Amazing when you think about it. The same types who drew the GOP sharply to the extreme right are drawing ours there as well. Corporate friendly parties,both.

..on DU tonight.


[font color=firebrick][center]The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those who advance the agenda of the RICH at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR. [/font][/center]

Hi bvar.

This is the first time I've spent much time perusing GD in a while. I almost wish I hadn't.

Yeah, I know that feeling, Blue. I really do.

So that was a plus..

Democratic Party anymore? It's so obvious that they don't, the Left isn't as easily led around by the nose, they don't fall for the propaganda as easily, they are inconvenient to those trying to push the Neocon agenda eg and the pushback is fierce when someone posts ANYTHING that contradicts the 'message'.

See all those right wing personal attacks when people question why we are interfering in Unkraine, eg. No discussion, you're just a 'Putin lover'.

No Liberal forum should see those kinds of right wing attacks other than to mock the Right, as we used to do here when they called the Left Saddam lovers.

...because the Republican party has gone SO far off the deep end.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a TOTAL liberal, and would be on the opposite side of said conservative Democrats just about every time. But someone like Hillary could add a lot to the national conversation, where someone like Cruz does not.

Unfortunately, I'm forced to decry the conservative Democrats, whom I want to embrace, because they have shoved the left of the party almost entirely out of the picture. I want a liberal Democratic party with a conservative minority, not a corporatist, neo-con Democratic party with a practically non-existent liberal minority.

Sorry to disagree but what can Hillary add to the Conversation? So far she has been silent on some major issues while people like Sherrod Brown, Sanders and Warren ARE adding to the conversation and doing a very good job.

The Mid Terms proved that the country is Left on the issues.

Rather than vote for Third Way candidates who did not represent them, voters chose to focus on local and state elections.

They worked to get Progressive issues on ballots around the country. And WON, across the political spectrum.

Progressive candidates ALSO held their seats or won new ones, while the Third Way lost.

The voters are telling them what they want. If they don't listen, that won't be the fault of the voters. The party is supposed to represent the people, not Corporations.

...and I'll admit, I may be romanticizing the FDR and LBJ coalitions a bit. Or maybe more than a bit!

but what is also true is that more Americans agreed with us
as well about raising the cap on SS, asking for a public option
at least, punishing the banksters for their crimes and raising
taxes on the super rich. All of these points had approvals in
polls by over 55% at least.

If, however, our congressional people refuse to listen to
the majority of their constituents, then, yes, the left is
to blame, as usual.

Money is a destabilizing force. Once conservative Democrats got a whiff of it, we became a bargaining chip.

Reagan Republicans, turned today's Third Way Democrats, lecturing liberals--who are merely asking the party to follow its own platform--that if they don't vote against their best interests they aren't Democrats. Isn't that a hoot?

Liberal policies are almost always correct when it comes to the general population but they're not so good for greedy oligarchs who want all of everything for themselves. Naturally they're going to demonize that which goes against their interests. They have the media and the control of the narrative and we have no way to effectively counter them. And so, they'll always win. Always.

And yet...we see what gerrymandering, restrictive (and unfair) voting laws, the bought media, and one issue voting does.

Big K&R

Liberals WILL ALWAYS BE marginalized.

Get used to it. That's what being a Liberal is all about. Liberals are always a generation and a half ahead of the rest of the world. You'll always be lucky to see anything you support enacted in your lifetime.

FDR was ahead of his time?

I think that he responded to the times.

left too many wounds for too long; but
if the left would like to return to some of his measures
in a more modern way, why would we then be ahead
of our times??

His responsive cleanup after 3 Repug presidents set a path of prosperity for this country for half a century and is the reason he was elected 4 terms. Thank God for Franklin and Eleanor.

had not been there right when he was needed.

right when he was needed....

There fixed that for ya!

Things never advanced faster for the 99% than in those decades.

Then the Third Way metastisized... and here we are.

us to go back to the roaring twenties, which led

to the big REPUBLICAN depression. I think that it was called so

until Ike got into the WH.

So, now we are supposed to be happy and dancing for the

future BIPARTISAN depression.

Enjoy!

support our core ideas?

Why did Americans vote for higher minimum wage laws this last election yet vote for Republicans for Congress?

Americans are liberal or progressive on the issues. When the Democratic Party runs liberal candidates who are frank about their liberal positions on issues like the minimum wage, then Democrats win. The 2014 election illustrated this point.

The problem is that the corporate bigwigs that fund the Democratic Party top-down promote right-wing candidates and right-wing ideas at the top of the party.

The right-wingers have money to hold conferences and seminars, issue studies (bogus very often) and twist facts to back up their nutty ideas. We liberals and progressives are left without the means to advocate for ideas.

And Bill Clinton signed the Telecommunications Act which helped to make the dearth of liberal media a reality. Shame on him.

they are going after the South again to peel off some voters. I am afraid I know what that means. Going to the right again?

Corporations want corporate friendly folks worried about things other than anti-social behavior of corporations

and their is also money to be lent so proxy states can become debt-slaves buying arms, munitions and consulting.

I will pass.

Corporations are groups of people who put assets or good will into the creation of the group.

The sum of the votes of "the corporation" CANNOT EXCEED the votes of the number of investors and contributors of good will

We just have to wait until things get bad enough for people to wake up and demand change. It's coming. The next crash may do it.

Both the economic and representative system is broken. And now for the first time, I'm a gerrymandered voter. Protest is the only participation for truth today.

treated as dangerous enemies from foreign governments.

I have much love for those "leftist judges" Italy's government official (could be head of state) complained about in their effort to prevent another kidnapping prosecution of a CIA agent.

and not only right wingers, but Democratic centrists and conservatives. They know they can't argue the principles with liberals, so they have to resort to personal attacks and other silliness such as empty threats that "you better do what they say!"

Particularly people who point out that they were right all along, everyone hates them.

and someone complained about knee-jerk Liberals that go too far.

I asked for an example of a state or country that was doing poorly because it was too Liberal. The only possibility thrown out was Greece, but all generally agreed that this was more of a corruption issue than a Liberal issue.

I think I made a conversion or two that night!

It's hard for them to defend their views when presented with good solid questions.

there really doesn't seem to be one. We gotta drag the party back to the right, where it properly belongs. Especially at this moment. It's all about to slip away from "them". There is as much marginalization of liberals these days among our own party as this is among the Republicans. The DINO's are sure to join in at the proper time to give cover, and next thing you know, wa-la, Hillary. Complete with clever but totally disingenuous meme-fest all over here and FB. If there is a God, please let it be her will that Bernie is chosen.

I kind of let go of that hostility, history always has a liberal slant (GOD I love how that pisses off some) and will show the truth for what it is.

Esp. when they just deny or ignore anything that disturbs their mindset.

Last edited Mon Feb 23, 2015, 05:40 AM - Edit history (1)

That's their base. I say this as a democratic socialist who is pretty far to the left of most in the democratic party. Most of the smarter, more engaged people I know feel like me that we need bold leftist change to really improve this country.

On a national level, I believe those democrats who oppose more war in the middle east will find popularity with that position. On a local level, I think those who help pass living wage ordinances double the federal minimum wage (with cost of living increases) will also find people turning out and voting for them.

We should utilize the justice department's anti-monopoly powers to break up the big banks. Always push toward free health care for all. Double the capital gains tax. I think that's what all democrats should do. I think they will get elected or reelected if they push hard - very vocally - for these policies. Distinguish themselves sharply from republicans, who ain't got nothing but more war and more inequality.

that space cannot be conceded, even for get-along-go-along dynamics. revelation and debate must stay present.

A soul-less, deceitful philosophy.

The right wing in this country understood that it needed to shift it's campaign from ideas to emotions, since it could not win on the ideas front. A number of right-wing think tanks hired PhD rhetoricians, and began constructing a deliberate campaign to to win by making emotional appeals. It's why they keep trying to sell tax cuts and "smaller government" despite over 30 years of evidence that that approach is an economic disaster... because it appeals to emotion, not reality.

Squashing Liberals was so important to the Right Wing because out ideas are so very powerful, correct and they resonate so well with most Americans, that they had to create a massive propaganda campaign to discredit us. This is why. There was also a lot of self marginalizing behavior on the part of Liberals and Lefties, trying to appease the bullies. Stand tall and keep talking!

it was bought and paid for by the third way (ie Koch).

It's done. The only question is whether we can organize leftists and rise up again in some form. And at this point I don't think our chances are very good.

"We" as liberals did not make those votes in Congress. "They" did. It's on them. It's on the ones who followed the corporate lead instead of listening to the voters who elected them.

Now it's to the point that I wonder if anything is salvageable.

Or did I misunderstand?

and to ignore any and all complaints because they are just huffing and in the end we'll hold our noses and go along.

That their are no consequences because if the party stars come through for a turd we won't even primary their ass, in fact we will swallow a thugthistle coronation and dutifully show up because.the TeaPubliKlans are worse.

They aren't going to fold, there is too much for them to lose so it is now a question of pain tolerance in a contest of wills. Ultimate power is vested in who is willing to destroy a thing otherwise all that is left is terms of surrender in a bid to save what you won't risk losing once your opponent knows your bottom line you are beaten, all they have to do is go to the heart and it is folding time.

Only when the opposition knows that surrender isn't going to happen can there be a real fight.

...and then reelected, even after they betrayed us. They may have done it, but it is on us, because we elected them, and then compounded hte error by reelecting them. You can run from the blame, but you can't hide.

As Winston Churchill said, it's the worst of all possible governments except for everything else.

The struggle between the economic elite and everyone else can be traced back to the very beginning, and even adduced before recorded history. You have a group that has acquired economic power. This group adopts some philosophical underpinning and then uses its economic power and it's ideology to push everyone else out.

Somehow the Kochs and their minions have a lot of people fooled about their alleged superiority, which is largely inherited wealth. There's lots and lots you can do with $60 billion. You can set up a network of think tanks and private entities to buy a whole lot of credibility and people. The huge sum of money behind this machine is a pittance for the Kochs, who really have no place to put their money anyway. The return from weakening environmental enforcement, alone, is potentially huge. They are in the two filthiest industries on the planet.

The only way to thwart their efforts to undermine our democracy is to vote. We didn't vote in the midterms. Madfloridian, it is a democracy. It's silly to wring our hands over "real Democrats" versus this or that. It's us against the Kochs and the other billionaires and the rubber meets the road on economic policies that favor the middle class over the the .1%. All else follows, but WE, THE PEOPLE have to vote our own interests and not the interests of the oligarchs.

If thwarting the Kochs isn't enough motivation we still have enough policies that unite us. We really do have to go out of our way to bicker and name call and fight over minutiae and ideological b.s. Leave that to "conservatives." Their only real glue is that that all hate us.

I have always voted for Democrats.

I disagree with your statement:

"It's silly to wring our hands over "real Democrats" versus this or that."

You and I for example probably agree on at least 90% of the issues. You would rather jelly roll me on the 10% than work together on the 90%? Worse yet you would value defeating me, with our minor differences, over defeating fascists.

I guess that attitude makes sense to you? To me it's worse than silly but I'll leave it at that.

We either coalesce and win together or we don't vote, fall apart, whine and bicker, and we lose. The latter is the Republican strategy because if we vote they lose.

Call it whatever you want. Like I said I do have much harsher terms that I could use. I want Democrats to win and I want Republicans to lose.

I voted. Am I supposed to keep my mouth shut about injustices? I think that is what you mean.

Sorry, I can't do that.

I never said or meant any such thing.

and both of your choices on the ballot work for the Kochs, why bother?

The war never ends. Never give up. Never.

"Conservatives" never give up. They attack relentlessly and lie and don't care. We do give up and they know it.

There is a huge difference. Huge.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Tell me how to explain to you the difference between "not speaking up" and working together towards a consensus? It's kind of important to be able to build a consensus. I don't see how our society goes on without doing that.

I'm confused.

I got two threads confused, sorry.

First I have nothing against you personally. I am discussing concepts, not people. I am not in your head or your heart. I don't judge you. My idea is strictly about winning and losing as Democrats. I think I already said, we either do one or the other. We either move forward or we lose. For example, the ACA is a move forward. Is it what I want? Hell no. But we no longer have pre-existing conditions. Costs are going down. More people are insured. It's progress. It's a move forward. Republicans would quash that in a heartbeat, if they could. We should be coalescing to work towards more improvement, such as a public option. That's still a ways away from perfection but it would move the ball further instead of letting regressives take us "back" to whatever Neandertal policies they would impose on us.

Someone just gave me a term which I don't know if I can use here. I'm certainly not unique and I don't read here enough to know this, but I'm sure you've run across it. Essentially the term refers to "a self-described liberal or progressive, often with libertarian leanings, whose political orientation is to be angry, dissatisfied and unhappy with the state of the nation at any given time, because in their view, liberal policies are not being implemented quickly or forcefully enough. They have particular contempt for Democratic presidents."

Of course you are entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe but the fact that you cannot dispute is that Democrats have to get more votes than Republicans to win. If you don't vote that is one less vote for Democrats. If your disaffection causes anyone else's disaffection, that's another vote lost.

I'm sorry, I don't see the efficacy of this. Voice your opinion to be sure. Put your two cents into the ring but at the end of the day you need to vote and you need to encourage others to vote. You need to talk up our policies and our candidates if you truly care.

Finally, are you seriously going to tell me that you don't understand what I'm saying? You can disagree with me and I'll accept that. I'm not going to agree that being disaffected is going to be efficacious in any way, but I do understand your disaffection. You ought to understand why people think your disaffection is not a good idea. It's not that difficult.

Then I am supposed to be silent. And I can't.

You're not "supposed" to do anything. It's up to you. As I said, I'm not your judge.

you are one person. You are no more important than any other which means you are one of about 320 million. I speak in general terms. You are free to agree or disagree but when you change the discussion from the general concept to you, personally, that is a red herring.

No offense but you aren't important to me. If you wish to disagree with me, that's fine. But please don't change the subject to you.

Nor will I madfloridian.

EVER.

Great OP as well.

The democratic party is on the same gravy train as the repubs. Sure they throw us a few more crumbs, but the train is still barreling in the same direction.

I hope some sane voices speak out, but the media will drown them out with the pro-war message.

More like weasels, varmints, rovian bodysnatchers, slimy snakes from the lower-earth fiefdom of murdoch, low-life lobbyists looking like liberals, dinos that can't wait to get back to their repug country-club, academics with crappy credentials.

Harping on my favorite theme, there's a lot of spare change that gets spent in the halls of power and most of it is not accounted for, can't be traced, can't be taxed. Some of it is used to grease palms, pass bills, buy nice meals and vacations and fun; but a lot of it just slides quietly into untraceable bank accounts.

And we need to show some spine, too, as we're exhorting our Dems to do. WE need to stand up and fight back - and BITE BACK.

I'm a Liberal. And I'm DAMN PROUD OF IT!!!! Deal with it.

...aka 'center right' dems.

Registering as a "democrat" is easy and free.

Not everyone who registers as a "democrat"
supports Democratic values.

What you and many others consider "failure"
is a profitable "success" to someone else.

Ever hear about setting a fox to guard the hen house?
Or, the "best way to rob a bank is to own one"?

The DNC and the 3rd-Way is destroying the Democratic Party!

We're cannon fodder, slave labor, and toys for the oligarchs.