You do realize it IS the second largest bank in the world right?

Does that mean it's too big to be corrupt or something?

I'm simply asking a factual question. It isn't rhetorical, it has an answer.

that is what.....there is nothing as of yet to show that the Clinton Foundation is in any way a part of this scandal......but you keep breathlessly hoping for!

Besides....you piped into this thread with this assertion....and you are asking me WTF does this have to do with anything? Tone Deaf!

But you gave it away. Yes, you are correct it was indeed the Clinton foundation.

And you are also correct that nothing has been shown yet (your word) that the Clinton foundation is part of the scandal. Maybe it never will.

you are trying desperately to make a connection...

The question is, is there anything unseemly about the connection.

Smarter people than me will have to determine that.

me to those banks' roles in the financial crisis. Even less actually. It's as if I had a charitable foundation an some people who donated to it had accounts at Chase. I guess maybe I could refuse checks from any bank that has ever been investigated or fined. That would leave me with no donors.

Apparently HSBC is some exotic thing to some people here, but in reality, it's just another huge international bank.

Such as billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein and the widow of Marc Rich, the oil trader who received a controversial pardon from Bill Clinton shortly before Clinton left office.

I'll probably vote for Clinton if she's the nominee, but you're naive if you think all this crap won't come out during the campaign. Look what they did to Obama, and all he did was attend a church with an idiot pastor.

Those allegations are out there. They need to be addressed. Denying or ignoring them won't make them go away.

That goes for any bank, in fact. You still seem to think that having an HSBC account is some weird thing. There's an HSBC branch down the street from me. I see people go in and out of it all the time. Should I be worried?

It came from people who had accounts at HSBC.

Here's a newsflash. Every large charitable organization is going to have money coming from people with accounts at HSBC. Why? Because HSBC is a huge bank and a lot of people have accounts there. They're also going to have money coming in from people with accounts at BofA and Chase, both of which played key roles and were fined upwards of $10B for actions leading up to the financial crisis.

Trying to blame Clinton for the place where people who contributed to her foundation have bank accounts is really dumb, even by the standards of Hillary haters. Fortunately, the person who started this meme has recently been banned but the meme lives on.

In one transaction, the British business tycoon Richard Caring, accompanied by security, was depicted in September 2005 collecting more than five million Swiss francs in cash.

HSBC staff explained handing Caring the huge sum of cash by quoting a statement by him that he planned to deposit the cash with another Swiss bank, and did not want either bank to be aware of the other. They wrote: “RC goes to great lengths to maintain discretion.”

snip

The files show Caring, a major donor to British politics, transferring US$1mn to the Clinton Foundation, a nonprofit set up by the former US President Bill Clinton with the stated mission to “strengthen the capacity of people in the United States and throughout the world to meet the challenges of global interdependence.”

The donation to the Clinton Foundation was requested in December 2005. The previous month, Caring funded a champagne and caviar extravaganza at Catherine the Great’s Winter Palace in St Petersburg, Russia, flying in 450 guests to be entertained by Sir Elton John and Tina Turner and addressed by Bill Clinton. The event raised more than £11mn for a children’s charity.

donors to the Clinton Foundation with questionable/illegal accounts include
Michael Schumacher
Canadian businessman Frank Giustra: Guistra's association with Bill Clinton is of real concern.

Go to the section under Other Clinton Donors
http://indianexpress.com/article/world/world-others/hsbc-sheltered-murky-cash-linked-to-dictators-arms-dealers/

What a dirty, nasty organization. Its like its straight from a movie, but truth is stranger than fiction. We need to get H.T. Narea on this.

businessmen suspected since 2001 of donating money to Muslim terrorist Osama Bin Laden,

In 2002, Mr. Motley sued in federal court on behalf of the families of Sept. 11 victims against the government of Saudi Arabia and the Saudi elite, including banks, charities and even members of the royal family, accusing them of financing Al Qaeda. But the lawsuit, which lacked a smoking gun proving Saudi complicity, became mired in endless procedural delays, and Mr. Motley, its original champion, died in

Last week, though, the case drew headlines when lawyers for the families disclosed that Zacarias Moussaoui, a former Qaeda operative now in federal prison, had told them that members of Saudi Arabia’s royal family had been major donors to the terrorist organization in the late 1990s.

<snip>

Over the years, the case has suffered so many delays and false starts, endured so many ups and downs, that it has sometimes been compared to Jarndyce v. Jarndyce, the endless legal drama at the heart of Charles Dickens’s “Bleak House.” The case has also provoked strange questions about whether some investigators hired by the lawyers for the victims’ families were also working for the American government on unrelated intelligence operations at the same time. Those questions led to a secret investigation by the Justice Department’s inspector general into the relationship between the investigators and the F.B.I.

<snip>

But after the government and royal family members were dismissed in 2005, lawyers for the plaintiffs appealed, beginning a lengthy legal war to get them brought back in. Finally, in 2013, an appeals court reversed its own decision and ruled that the victims’ families could pursue their case against the Saudi government.

The ruling did not extend to the individual members of the Saudi royal family who had been dismissed, but it still gave the lawsuit new life and a new focus, with far fewer defendants.

“We started with five or six hundred defendants, including governments of several countries — it was painted with a broad brush in the beginning,” Mr. Kreindler said. “Now it is primarily focused on the government of Saudi Arabia.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/world/middleeast/terrorists-claims-about-saudis-put-9-11-families-lawsuit-back-in-spotlight.html

Why aren't we allowed to sue Saudi businessmen? It is strange but yet more proof the original Wahabbi cult finances other Wahabbi cults.

I have several questions:

# 1: So this is Chinese money laundering of these illegal activities?

# 2: Are these activities legal in China?

# 3: And avoiding taxes, do they believe in paying them?

# 4: Do they care about drugs in other countries and things we consider illegal in the USA?

# 5: And are these merely digits in databases to them, are they required to know how their clients make the money that was deposited?

# 6: How would they know the harm that the depositors did?

# 7: Is the reason it has been so long coming out, a problem of translation, laws, or ignorance about the reputations of the thousands of people putting money in their hands to manage?

# 8: Is it proper to ask the depositors all of this?

# 9: Does this indict China in any way, and will it hurt relations with China?

#10: Is this China's doing?

I'm certainly not implying the Chinese did wrong, just trying to figure out how it worked.

And I'm not going with the moral argument, there appears to be no morality involved when it's this much money, especially when it crosses borders to countries that see no wrong doing with it.

This seems to be a purely Euro-centric view, for example, money going to Bin Laden may have been Saudi political strategy, same as blood diamonds, child soldiers, etc.

That all sucks in our view, but if it did to them, the perpetrators would not have done these things.

If Western investors truly knew what was going on, and made profit off it, they broke European and American law. Once again this comes from our moral beliefs and not those of other nations.

Just curious of the big view, not making excuses for these guys. I don't know if any of these stories are the gotcha of the century, nor will they stop the criminals that we are really outraged about and not the money.

HSBC Holdings plc is a British multinational banking and financial services company headquartered in London, United Kingdom. It is the world's second largest bank


The Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation was founded by Scotsman Sir Thomas Sutherland in the then British colony of Hong Kong on 3 March 1865, and in Shanghai a month later, benefiting from the start of trading into China, including opium trading.


Le Monde diplomatique described HSBC’s origins in its on-line English-language edition.

HSBC — formerly the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation … is today one of the world’s largest banking groups. But it began with maritime business and the opium trade. … …

Opium made up 70 percent of maritime freight from India to China, where it was sold to the Chinese by British compradores, despite all efforts by the Chinese authorities to stop it.

[Thomas] Sutherland understood that the time was right for a commercial bank. In 1865 he and a few others founded the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation. The board … included the remarkable Thomas Dent, founder of Dent & Co.

In 1839 a senior Chinese government official, Lin Zexu, known for his competence and moral standing, issued a warrant for Dent’s arrest in an attempt to close his warehouses, which infringed the Chinese ban on opium. That helped trigger the first opium war, which ended in August 1842 with the unequal treaty of Nanking.

chinese-opium-smokersAfter the second opium war (1856-60), the British and French imposed territorial concessions under foreign administration, the opening of Chinese ports to foreign trade and the legalization of the opium trade.

When Sutherland began the Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation, the conflict had been over for five years. The Chinese characters in the transliteration of its name are auspicious, and can be understood to mean gathering wealth.


It was founded in the wake of the British victories in the Opium Wars (1839-1842 and 1856-1860) against China. These two wars were very important to the strengthening of the British Empire and the century and a half waning of China. Through the Opium Wars, the British Empire forced China to accept opium importations coming from British India. China tried to oppose this commerce, but British arms, backed by Washington, proved stronger. London established a colony in Hong Kong in 1865, where HSBC was created by a Scottish merchant specializing in the opium trade— the basis of 70% of Hong Kong trade with the Indies.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSBC


https://philebersole.wordpress.com/2013/02/15/hsbcs-history-and-the-original-drug-cartel/



http://cadtm.org/HSBC-the-bank-with-a-shameful-past

It was founded when Hong Kong was a British Colony, and started out with branches in Hong Kong and Shanghai, hence the name. That was in 1865. Now, it's just a big international bank that does business all over the world.

That's part of this that is never explained. Not all money can be traced, even harder to find dirty money. That is, from the crimes they say the depositors committed. If you see what I mean. Any info would be helpful.TIA.

banks have to abide by.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_your_customer

I don't know the details, but it's highly unlikely that HSBC had no KYC controls at all. More probably, they had them, but their compliance department turned a blind eye in some cases, maybe with the tacit support of upper management, something like that, who knows. Like maybe some employees were bringing in profitable customers and allowing them to fudge their KYC a bit. And compliance didn't check up on that, and if anyone spoke up about it they were silenced because of the money the firm was making and the bonuses they were personally getting. Etc.

This is all speculation, though. There are a lot of ways this could have happened, and I haven't read the report.

Despite my notion of independence because of the end of the British lease on Hong Kong, still being owned by the UK puts them under KYC laws passed in 2007.

The Wikipedia piece shows the law is not in place in several nations. And it's the eternally evil, international banking system, blah, blah, blah. That is exactly what found these fraudsters who are stealing the Commons.

This was corruption by those who considered themselves above the law. Bank and corporate deregulation is part of negative libertarianism. Sounds like the elite's version of the sovereign citizens:

'No government tells me what to do!'

The philosophy described:

How Freedom Became Tyranny

By George Monbiot - December 19, 2011

Freedom: who could object? Yet this word is now used to justify a thousand forms of exploitation. Throughout the rightwing press and blogosphere, among thinktanks and governments, the word excuses every assault on the lives of the poor, every form of inequality and intrusion to which the 1% subject us. How did libertarianism, once a noble impulse, become synonymous with injustice?

In the name of freedom – freedom from regulation – the banks were permitted to wreck the economy. In the name of freedom, taxes for the super-rich are cut. In the name of freedom, companies lobby to drop the minimum wage and raise working hours. In the same cause, US insurers lobby Congress to thwart effective public healthcare; the government rips up our planning laws(1); big business trashes the biosphere. This is the freedom of the powerful to exploit the weak, the rich to exploit the poor.

Right-wing libertarianism recognises few legitimate constraints on the power to act, regardless of the impact on the lives of others. In the UK it is forcefully promoted by groups like the TaxPayers’ Alliance, the Adam Smith Institute, the Institute of Economic Affairs and Policy Exchange(2). Their conception of freedom looks to me like nothing but a justification for greed.

So why have we been been so slow to challenge this concept of liberty? I believe that one of the reasons is as follows. The great political conflict of our age – between neocons and the millionaires and corporations they support on one side and social justice campaigners and environmentalists on the other – has been mischaracterised as a clash between negative and positive freedoms...

Much more at link:

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/12/19/how-freedom-became-tyranny/

Van Jones explained negative libertarianism and how it is leading not to government tyranny, but corporate tyranny. The rightwingers are working for the same goals they say they are against, as they won't look to the end results. I see the same on the far left, sadly, in calling for exiting the public square and in effect, ceding the last of the Commons to the same forces and corporations:

And your link with the 'anti-money laundering software' link means that HSBC had the tools to discern these thefts. As you said, some of them didn't want to act upon that data as mandated.

JMHO...

interesting

I recommend this link -- primarily the History section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

With the help of funding from petroleum exports[24] (and other factors[25]), the movement underwent "explosive growth" beginning in the 1970s and now has worldwide influence.[3] The movement also draws from the teachings of Medieval theologian Ibn Taymiyyah and early jurist Ahmad ibn Hanbal.[26]

<snip>

From the History section

Wahhabis also massacred the male population and enslaved the women and children of the city of Ta'if in Hejaz in 1803.[100]

The Ottoman Empire eventually succeeded in counterattacking. In 1818 they defeated Al Saud, leveling the capital Diriyah, executing the Al-Saud emir, exiling the emirate's political and religious leadership,[90][101] and otherwise unsuccessfully attempted to stamp out not just the House of Saud but the Wahhabi mission.[102] A second, smaller Saudi state (Emirate of Nejd) lasted from 1819-1891. Its borders being within Najd, Wahhabism was protected from further Ottoman or Egyptian campaigns by the Najd's isolation, lack of valuable resources, and that era's limited communication and transportation.[103]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Saudi Arabia has provided financial assistance to the Taliban (Wahabbi ideology followers), Al-Qaeda -- "Freedom fighters" against the USSR & the communist Afghanistan government. IS funds are stored in Kuwaiti & Qatari banks. US pressured Saudi Arabia in installing red flags in their banking systems to track terror financing activities. I do believe it is a political strategy & ideologically strategy. Saudi Arabia has been heavily involved in propaganda activities regarding their controversial sect, one of its first acts was desecrating the graves of Muhammad's immediate family. They constantly blame the West why Saudi Arabia is behaving more aggressively.
---------
You may have looked deep into this but not sure why you mention China when it seems most of this relates to Swiss banks. Not sure of criminal prosecutions, Swiss Bank accounts seem to have a reputation when it comes tracking or taking their money.

Wachovia was found responsible for laundering $378 in drug cartel money during the "Financial crisis of 2008-10", they were hit with a $70 million dollar fund. They bought out Wells Fargo for $28 billion which the government cut them a $28 billion tax break for "bailing out" Wells Fargo.

In the 80's there was a financial scandal this article is well-sourced so maybe this will be helpful in regards to your questions

From 1969 to 1975, Deak & Company was the conduit used by the Lockheed Corporation to transfer money intended by Lockheed to bribe Japanese officials. That bribery scandal resulted a year ago in the criminal conviction of a former Prime Minister, Kakuei Tanaka. In 15 deliveries, Deak & Company moved $8.3 million to Hong Kong, where a Spanish-born priest representing Lockheed took the cash and carried it to Japan in a flight bag or in cardboard boxes labeled ”oranges.” “Lockheed Corporation came in and asked us to make a payment,” Leslie Deak explained. “We made a payment. The fact that the money was used later for bribes is Lockheed’s shame, not ours.”

– The most serious charges involve the “laundering” of tens of millions of dollars garnered by cocaine traffikers. David Williams, an investigator for the commission, said in hearings in March that the “Grandma Mafia” – a well-known cocaine ring that involved many middle-aged or elderly women – deposited $7.6 million. The money was later transferred to Miami, Panama and Colombia, and Mr. Williams quoted a leader of the ring as doubting that her contact in the company could have been so naive as not to have known the origin or the money.

<snip>

From 1969 to 1975, Deak & Company was the conduit used by the Lockheed Corporation to transfer money intended by Lockheed to bribe Japanese officials. That bribery scandal resulted a year ago in the criminal conviction of a former Prime Minister, Kakuei Tanaka. In 15 deliveries, Deak & Company moved $8.3 million to Hong Kong, where a Spanish-born priest representing Lockheed took the cash and carried it to Japan in a flight bag or in cardboard boxes labeled ”oranges.” “Lockheed Corporation came in and asked us to make a payment,” Leslie Deak explained. “We made a payment. The fact that the money was used later for bribes is Lockheed’s shame, not ours.”

– The most serious charges involve the “laundering” of tens of millions of dollars garnered by cocaine traffikers. David Williams, an investigator for the commission, said in hearings in March that the “Grandma Mafia” – a well-known cocaine ring that involved many middle-aged or elderly women – deposited $7.6 million. The money was later transferred to Miami, Panama and Colombia, and Mr. Williams quoted a leader of the ring as doubting that her contact in the company could have been so naive as not to have known the origin or the money.

<snip>

The tightly integrated, interdependent world economy which we know today was then just beginning to evolve. Businessmen were encountering obstacles and frustrations flowing from the foreign exchange restrictions which then prevailed. To function in foreign trade and investments, they needed sophisticated knowledgeable advice. Deak and Co., Inc. remedied that problem in America.

http://pando.com/2014/10/26/the-biggest-cia-drug-money-scandal-you-never-read/

Thank you for gathering all this info for the lazy out there, which is me.



(bookmarked!)

Thanks for writing this. Glad that the ICIJ is continuing this work.

know thine enemy.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/22/swiss-account-secret-of-hsbc-chief-stuart-gulliver-revealed

The other bosses liked Switzerland a lot, too:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/feb/09/hsbc-files-questions-oversight-senior-bankers-swiss