if we reinstate the draft, then it needs to pick up at whatever the last number called before 1973 was. That way all the people who keep arguing for a draft get first shot at service!

There's always somebody eager to send OTHER mothers' kids to be maimed or die in combat.

22 suicides a day is not right and all the after service civil problems calls for an renewed draft for sheer need and as a way to reconnect the population with government (civic responsibility).

Yeah, let's not send the same people over and over to an awful situation. Let's not send anyone. Simple.

made it easier to esculate the war in Vietnam even though those in charge knew we could not win. The draft is not a good thing

we already have a draft it's called stop-loss . if something is so important that this nation has to goto war shouldn't everyone be involved instead of small percentage of families besides a draft or the threat of one might get people motivated enough to vote and it would give politicians a big reason not to start a war.

thus it is easier to esculate a war.

How can you stand these poor souls doing tour after tour when you've been slacking for 50 or 60 damn years and just did three years then?

Get to work for the cause and I think you should pay for too because I sure as fuck am tired of this fool ass tab being run up by delusional and/or greedy bastards for nefarious purposes and then supported by a broad spectrum of suckers that fall for the same tricks and lies time after time only to regret it in short order.

17 May 1968 9 people walked into a Selective Service Office, took hundreds of draft files from a cabinet, took them outside, doused them with homemade napalm and burned them in the name of peace.

If we're not involved in all these foreign conflicts that we have no business being involved in, and our troops are home defending our own country and not some imperial conquest, that is the best outcome for our troops and our country too.

Bring them all home and close all foreign military bases. End military expeditionism and spend that money on better things, such as medical care for the legions of veterans who need it. It's sickening how we deploy and deploy and deploy to situations that have no connection to our national interest, and then screw the vets when it comes time to care for the injuries they sustain during those deployments.

And it should be quite clear to everyone that getting involved in yet another foreign conflict is what is impractical - as in actual practice, every last one of these foreign interventions has been an unmitigated disaster that has cost Americans dearly.

To want to throw more young men and women into an interminable meat grinder of perpetual war is unconscionable, not practical.

As you have expressed such a magnificently deep concern for the welfare of our troops abroad that you are willing to openly advocate military slavery (and that is exactly what conscription is), and no interest whatsoever in limiting the deployments, I have one very serious question for you.

Why haven't you signed up? Why aren't you signed up now?

That's news to me, if true.

Maybe 5-deferment Cheney would like to volunteer. Or perhaps we could reach deeply into the Republican-controlled Congress where there are plenty of speech-givers who talk about bombing countries and killing enemies. Apparently they`re all war experts who I`m certain would be ready to lead the long line of Republican hawks to a giant "freedom" fight.

The shock, the awe......the flower petals.....

lose people needlessly.

Screw the politics it's time to stepup before we wipe out a whole generation.

If we lose the whole generation then I reckon we'll have to cut back on random, nonsensical, stupid, counterproductive adventures of choice and acquisition for private profits.

In fact, it sounds like the better idea would be to impede the recruitment we do have and bring the whole thing to a halt while it is over extended.

Thank you! I had roamed all around the pressure point and never really got it. Something I would tend to focus on first in most situations and missed it here, probably the indoctrination and patriotism.

Bring the flow of flesh and tools to an absolute grind.

And I'm in. Agreement that is...

sending our young people into wars and invasions and other shit in the first place?

A draft? Fuck no.

fair and equitable draft? To quote you "It is never going to happen" and to throw more young people into the mix will do nothing but waste more lives.

You don't fix what is broken by not just continuing what you are doing but actually increasing it.

We need a congress that will use our military properly. We do NOT need to give them more people to use improperly.

To quote me "fuck no"

and drawing a number on nation wide TV was like the power ball drawing.

Perfection doesn't trump need.

connections? "It will be as fair as it needs to be" ? Seriously? You really believe that?

Let's look for instance, oh, off the top of my head, at baby bush. Remember him?

Perfection doesn't trump need and there is no need to give them more people to abuse.

If you believe those making the rules will risk their own, I don't know what to say beyond it seems a better use of resources ALL THE WAY AROUND to instead use those who are in the military properly rather than give them more to abuse.

think how much larger we would have to grow the military. The U.S. military is the smallest it has been since prior to WW2.

The money that has come for the vets in need of housing, employment, health care, mental health care. "The money comes with need."???????

If you truly believe that, why are there so many homeless, unemployed vets dealing with mental illness? Where the fuck is the money that came with that need?

Or do you mean money will come with the "need" to hurt more young men and women?

Also, it might be smaller because so many jobs have been outsourced to contractors. That way the true size of the military is off the books, really.

Those days are over. Washington does not care. The police have been militarized, and, as far as I can tell, might actually be looking forward to some demonstrations, just to use their shiny weapons. So no, demonstrations and voting won't change a fucking thing.

No. And - prepped for the Ukraine. WWIII. Assholes.

WASHINGTON — The US Army is preparing to send approximately 300 troops at a time to train Ukrainian forces in western Ukraine, according to documents posted on a government contracting site.


http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense-news/blog/intercepts/2015/03/03/ukraine-russia-putin-war/24327263/

Thunderous bipartisan applause from both Houses of Congress. Bring 'em on.

I feel sorry for the individual people but better we lose every single one than feed tens of thousands into yet another self inflicted quagmire.

At this point the best thing for troops future and present, the world, and our nation is that our capacity be seriously limited rather than enhanced.

Time to stop being 'Team America, World Police'. Turn it over to the UN.

over Alabama?

before it get to bloodshed and the need for federal troops is up to them.

But instead I'll discuss numbers with you. How many soldiers, active duty and reserve do we have? The answer may be surprising when you consider how much money we spend. We have half a million active duty soldiers. We have fewer than two million including reserves and all branches of the military. That includes troops in Korea, Europe, and all other deployed personnel.

If we tried to Federalize the police, that would bring us another two million. That includes all county, city, state, and federal personnel authorized to wear a badge and arrest people.

So right now we have a total of four million. For the sake of argument, let's go with five million for fun.

There are 250 million people in the nation. But for now, to placate you, we'll pretend that none of the other states would object if you marched Federal troops into Alabama to shut down the State Supreme Court and force them to act like you want. That by the way, is a huge stretch of the imagination.

The Southern Poverty Law Center says there are nearly 1,000 known hate groups. Assume that there are at least that many that are unknown because they don't post on the internet. How many of them would sit idly by and take no action when you invade Alabama?

But let's keep it simple. Let's say that one person in ten will object to your actions. Let's say that half of those, or one in twenty will be motivated to take action themselves. Attacking federal employees, attacking federal buildings, or attacking police.

Five percent of the population is more than ten million people scattered across fifty states. Most will be in red states. But how do you propose to deal with an insurgency in the United States when we could never really get an insurgency under control in Afghanistan or Iraq? Especially when early victories will swell their ranks with recruits who are now convinced that the Democratic party and Obama are going to use Martial Law to subvert the Constitution?

Oh we have them out gunned, we have tanks, and helicopters, and drones, and fighter jets that are awesome or something. Yet Tanks, Drone, Helicopters, and awesome fighter jets haven't yet even put a dent in ISIS/ISIL/IS, and they are occupying much less territory than the United States.

Estimates show that there are 90 guns per 100 people in the United States. A vast and overwhelming majority of those are owned by people who are generally speaking opposed to the Democratic Party. That is a lot of guns. So invading Alabama would result in some of those coming out in opposition. How many would come out? Ten, a hundred, a thousand, a million?

As long as your proposed actions remained confined to Alabama, then you could theoretically win. But if it spread to one more state, and there are several it would almost certainly spread to, then the Federal Government would lose. Would Texas remain quiet and obedient when images of Federal troops firing on American Citizens flashed across the web? Georgia? Tennessee? South Carolina? Kentucky? West Virginia? How about Oklahoma, Wyoming, Iowa, Idaho, Mississippi, or Montana? Would every one of the 49 remaining states remain loyal and obedient. Not most of them, every single one of them? Not just the political types, the individuals, the people. How long would we fight for Kansas? How long could we afford to fight for Louisiana? Could we afford to lose the refineries on the Gulf Coast? If we did, how could we fuel those helicopters, tanks, and drones and those awesomely cool fighter jets?

Imagine if President Obama was deposed by a coup. Would you stand by silently and remain loyal to the Government? Or would you go out and protest? Would you go out and drive your car into a crowd of oppressors to try and stop them from destroying the nation? Would you join with a group of people protesting the idea, and attack the police who tried to break up the protest?

The nation would split. It would be a five way civil war. It would be unimaginably awful. Millions would die, and millions more would suffer unimaginably.

Take some time, look at the numbers, and study how things break down. The general rule of thumb on an insurgency is that it takes ten soldiers to fight one insurgent. Do you think that the opponents we're talking about could round up half a million people who believe as they do in this nation? If so, the odds would be even. If they got more, the Federal Government would be outnumbered, assuming we could count on every one of those city, county, and state police officers to support us. Any bets on that?

All those who favor one should volunteer first.

As others have already said, we need to stop sending soldiers all around the world.

It is our military overreach that is going to destroy this country in the end. Funding is cut for everything but the military. I was reading an article in the paper today about some new fighter jet or some such that the Pentagon is getting ready to start putting out for bids, and the expected cost overruns are ludicrous.

The only draft I would ever support is one that would be implemented fairly. No exemptions for the rich nor well-connected. Since that will never happen, I oppose the draft.

Please proceed, CK_John, to the nearest recruitment center. Best of luck to you.

Making everybody contribute some skin to the game, in the form of themselves or their kids or their grandkids being subject to a draft, would bring some badly-needed restraint to these war junkie politicians we're burdened with. Bibi Netanyahu would be rightfully ignored, instead of being an object of worship in the U.S. legislative branch for trying to coax us into World War III. Think it over.

Should children and grandchildren be attacked and quite possibly killed just to get back at somebody who we don't like?

We really need to stop and think before we start trying to attack folks through their children.

Children are ends, not means.

Children are much more than mere tools for attacking people who we don't like.

...would you attack his pacifist nephew, Jonathan Ben-Artzi, for Bibi's actions?

of the problems of having no draft is that people like me feel secure. MY grandson will not have to go. I and others like me can look away while we send our troops off to war. It does not involve us. Or so the reasoning goes. That is not how I feel but many do without even thinking it out.

The assumption is that it we had a draft then everyone with a child (boy or girl) would have to worry about the wars. I don't know if that would change anything but that is the idea.

One of the big problems with the draft is that many were able to get deferments and exemptions. And unfortunately it was mostly the rich and those who's families would have the most influence over the leaders of the nation. If there is ever another draft I want those exemptions (other than medical reasons) eliminated.

One of the MSNBC shows last evening had a discussion regarding this. Don't remember which one.

Self-interest has everything to do with how wars are waged.

children who went to any of their wars since the draft ended?

draft. Rather than working on getting them to do that, instead we should work on getting them to not misuse the military at all.

work on that idea but exactly how do we go about it? I don't think we can actually describe any of the wars since WWII as justified.

Are you saying that no one cared what was happening during those months, years, because there was no draft? I disagree. A lot of people cared and were happy it was winding down and continued to work toward making sure that happened.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/72085.html

In the college town I was in, all the anti-war activity went away virtually overnight, once the draft was concluded in 1/1973. No more rallies, no more petitions, no nothing. Time for everybody to hit grad school or get a job, and before you know it, that monument with 58,000 names on it goes up in D.C..... I was young and naïve back then; I actually thought we might have learned something from Viet Nam. Turns out, we learned exactly dick from it. War is more popular than ever---watch out, ISIS!---and a volunteer military makes that twisted outlook possible.

started winding down the war, which including stopping drafting people for it.

Hey, we need bodies, let's start drafting people!
OK, hey, look at all these bodies we can throw around in Viet Nam!
Protest, protest, protest protest, protest...
Hey, how about we stop doing shit in Viet Nam, and we can end the draft too! We'll prove we are stopping by not drafting more people.
Stop protesting since it obvious the war is stopping.

Yup. Little was learned from the Viet Nam debacle. Here we are again.

because the date when the Selective Service announced the end of the draft coincided with the withdrawal of US forces from Viet Nam.

As stated up-thread, the draft ended in January 1973. U.S. military involvement didn't end until August 1973. And the war didn't end until April 1975.

January 27, 1973 - The Paris Peace Accords are signed by the U.S., North Vietnam, South Vietnam and the Viet Cong. Under the terms, the U.S. agrees to immediately halt all military activities and withdraw all remaining military personnel within 60 days. The North Vietnamese agree to an immediate cease-fire and the release of all American POWs within 60 days. An estimated 150,000 North Vietnamese soldiers presently in South Vietnam are allowed to remain. Vietnam is still divided. South Vietnam is considered to be one country with two governments, one led by President Thieu, the other led by Viet Cong, pending future reconciliation.

January 27, 1973 - Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird announces the draft is ended in favor of voluntary enlistment.

http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/vietnam/index-1969.html

"March 29, 1973 - The last remaining American troops withdraw from Vietnam as President Nixon declares "the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come."

The withdrawal started on the day the end of the draft was announced in January. Thus, from that day on, there was no longer any need for anti-Vietnam War protests.

have signed up rather than throwing them out over and over again to make money for the war machine?

How could anyone think congress that so misuses our military could ever have an equitable draft? Why not have congress work instead towards using them properly?

those who are in the military instead or giving more bodies to misuse?

The thing about volunteers is that they can quit any time they want to.

Somebody who takes a bunch of volunteers to war needs to think long and hard in advance about how long those volunteers will continue volunteering their services.

Or were you using the word "volunteer" in the Orwellian sense of being compulsory?

I sure as hell don't. You know the kind of thing Dubya was "cautious" about? Not allowing any photos of flag-draped caskets upon their return to the U.S.

For two years. Churchill said it took two years to fully train a soldier. If anything we proved that in Vietnam sending people fresh out of basic into combat.

Battle is not the only endeavor that takes time to earn how to apply the lessons. Medical students must go through residency to become Doctors. This gives them time to learn how to apply the lessons they learned in school.

Your plan is more like Stalin who said it only took five minutes to train a soldier. Those who lived had learned how to fight and survive. Those who didn't learn fast enough didn't.

Put your money where your mouth is...

I remember the draft. I enlisted in the USAF because of the draft. I had to arrange with the USAF recruiter to enlist if I got my draft notice. I got it, and was on a plane to Lackland AFB the next day.

No freaking draft, thanks.

Perhaps a military draft with NO exceptions would help people to reevaluate their political positions and clear up voter apathy.

But I dislike the idea of conscription at some visceral level.

I've been like that since I was 100% permanently and totally disabled in the line of duty while wearing one of those snappy uniforms, after 14 years of service.

That certainly gave me time to pause and reevaluate my political position. Cleared up my voter apathy very nicely, too!

is a lot of dead kids, too. I believe the police have been militarized just in case there are demonstrations, and that demonstrations are just, at most, annoyances to the people running things.

"Even when they pissed me off, I had to admit there was something I liked about the draftees who didn't want to be there and made no bones about it. I like draftees in general, even with the attendant problems. Historically draftees have kept the military on the straight and narrow. By calling a spade a spade, they keep it clean. Without their "careers" to think about, they can't be easily bullied or intimidated as Regulars; their presence prevents the elitism that otherwise might allow a Regular army to become isolated from the values of the country it serves. Draftees are not concerned for the reputation of their employer, the Army (in Vietnam they happily blew the whistle an everything from phony valor awards to the secret bombings of Laos and Cambodia); a draftee, citizens' army, so much a part of the history of America, is an essential part of a healthy democracy, one in which everyone pays the price Of admission." - Colonel Hackworth, About Face

out if them. They did that to me. I say no fucking way. Unless we are in a real defensive war where our way of life is threatened let volunteers join the wars of choice.

The current one, which would never think of concluding loopholes to protect the one percent? The one that can't wait for the chance to start more wars--excuse me, "authorize more use of force"? The one largely beholden to the military-industrial complex?

The Congress that could pass an egalitarian draft wouldn't want or need one.

The fact that some folks here are advocating such attacks disgusts me.

Children are should be treated as ends, not as means.

What kind of political party attacks people through their children and grandchildren?

Stop this cowardly nonsense.

I mean, WTF???

Are we a bunch of terrorists here?

...their children and grandchildren.

The notion seems to be that if we can threaten the lives of enough children and grandchildren, we can coerce those with whom we disagree with to do our bidding.

You won't get my daughters, nor will you get my grandchildren.

Hands off, assholes!

I have two daughters, and you know what really pisses me off? Neither one of them can march in step, LOL!

OK, that was a joke.

In case you're referring to my post, I do not advocate conscription. I've told my daughters that they better not even THINK of joining the military. Perhaps I was too flippant about making a point about the Republicans, voter apathy, etcetera.

And maybe the person who answered my previous post is right. Maybe the will of the people doesn't even matter anymore. Hell, there's a thread about the possibility of commercial exploitation of the public school system. Is there anything we won't roll over and tolerate?

Anyway, gotta go. I have to run the girls through some close order drill. I can't wait to have grandchildren.

and I'm just as opposed to a draft in the current era. It is nothing less than involuntary servitude (slavery). Even for volunteers. Once you sign on the dotted line, they OWN your ass and can do anything they want with you for the duration of your enlistment. First, they can lie to you about education available and duty assignments -- just to get you sucked in. Once in, they can send you to any foreign soil where there is money to be made by the MIC and expose you to chemical and nuclear poisons and other hazardous work environments. And when you are wounded, sick, worn out or in any way a liability to them, they will kick you to the curb and good luck getting any compensation for the damage to your life. Oh, and the pay is shit.