Sid

to vote hide.

but then knowing would probably just make my heart sink and my BP rise.

you teach people how to treat you.

The problem being this: the targets of the SAE chant didn't write or perform or necessarily listen to the song quoted. So how are they responsible for the words of the song quoted.

It's akin to claiming that women as a group are responsible if they are stalked because a rock group once known as the Police wrote and performed "I'll be watching you."

Edited to add that now that I've been singled out by "Name Removed" on this thread, I know who "Name Removed" is. Buh-bye!

so tiresome though isn't it

I'm a target of this particular troll.

So much for some folks and higher education.

Some things never change, apparently.

They can still be a frat and have their free speech, just not with any university.

As far as I'm concerned they should become a thing of the past. All it does is form cliques and an attitude of being better than others because you get to decide who is allowed in and who isn't. And for the most part I only hear negative stories of how they treat their sorority counterparts as well as this racism shit.

When I proposed that the greek system is more negative than positive and did not enhance education in any way, it set off a minor shitnado.

Thankfully, when I went to school I didn't even notice them. They may not even have them at UCSC, most people who go to that school wouldn't be into it. At least not when I went there.

That is one of the most beautiful areas of California and a gorgeous campus. I have spent quite a lot of time there and would move there in a heartbeat if I could.

Some frat members on this site take great exception to the idea that greeks are not the same as yesteryear and aren't necessary in an academic setting. The story that greeks have sold is that there is no social life if you don't belong to their club. One might argue that going to college is a time to get an education (since you'll be paying for it for the rest of your life) and if you want to party or experience the world, perhaps you should travel or live with your friends in a house and work for a bit while you mature.

I went to a school that did not allow greeks and everyone had great social lives and didn't have to deal with the dicks who insist on going to "party schools". In graduate school I did encounter the greek system and houses with reputations for being a "rape house". Two frat boys were convicted of rape and not expelled. So, like the big money atheletes, frats get special treatment. Just get rid of them already.

And clearly, at least for fraternities, they are filled with assholes.

check the origins and histories of the "Divine Nine" (AKA, The traditional predominately African-American Fraternities and Sororities) ... of which I am a proud and active member.

But then, the Black Fraternities and Sororities serve a different function, both, during college and beyond.

don't understand or have any experience in.

Frats and sororities, especially black ones, will be absolutely no exception to that rule. I'll never forget that when there was some drama over a white sorority winning a step show a few years ago, some folks here tried to "educate" me on the particulars of stepping.

For real.

but I did catch the one where a DUer cast Black Fraternities as secret societies, on par with the Illuminati!

There aren't enough s in all the world....

Bachelors and Benedict and the Boule! It's a conspiracy I tell ya!

For me, I've just heard too many stories of hazings gone bad, raping of drunk girls, loud boorish behavior... and the whole idea of "are you good enough to belong" thing with frats/sororities just doesn't sit well with me.

Can't the feeling of belonging happen with campus groups that aren't so exclusive and don't require you to be one of the chosen ones?

When I pledged, The President of my Fraternity was Hispanic. Two of my pledge brothers were Navajo. I had black brothers, Asian brothers, Native brothers. Hispanic brothers, Jewish brothers. One of my Navajo brothers (who I shared an apartment with, along with his cousin) Navajo was his first language. Navajo was spoken at our house. he spoke freely about his Navajo religious practices, and those were respected by all.

Many people will lecture us on that which they know very little of outside trendy, pop culture references from fashionable television shows

the having to be a chosen one. I really don't think it's that is conducive to treating everyone as an equal. To me by definition is does not do that.

And btw.... I almost said something snarky back to you as you did to me but decided against it. There's no reason you couldn't have simply told me about your fraternity without your opening remark. Especially since you cherry picked one thing I said ignored the rest.

And get upset with a snarky reply?

I was just posting my opinion.

Most of the guys in the fraternity I belonged to at the University of Minnesota in the early-mid 1980s were regular guys. There were Asian-American and African-American members when I was in the house. Some were sons of privilege, many weren't. A few were assholes, most weren't. Pretty much like any gathering of 60-70 people. Our national had banned hazing back in the 1970s and a chapter's charter was gone in the blink of an eye if there were reports of hazing. Three of my best friends to this day I met as brothers in the fraternity.

It depends, as it does in most cases. But there is no excuse for those guys in Oklahoma and Texas.

And promptly resigned the next year. Did not find it offered me anything of worth at all. My husband had a great experience with his fraternity.

My son goes off to college in the fall and has been asking us about them and doing some of his own research. He's still undecided about rushing, but figures the odds are extremely low he will join one even if invited to do so.

Different strokes.

This was a Univ. of California campus. My friends and I used to occasionally go to fraternity parties on Thursday nights or weekends (mostly for the free alcohol). We weren't in sororities. One time we came to the door of SAE to see if we could enter the party. The guy at the door looked at the three of us and told me that only I could go in. I was the only white girl. One friend was Asian and one was Indian. Of course we all turned around and left. I was completely shocked and disgusted at how blatantly racist the guy was, especially on a supposedly very liberal West Coast campus.

Frat Rats

There was plenty of dickishness to go around the Greek system, but SAE had a bigger share than most.

(There were also some nice guys who were in fraternities ... not all of them were a-holes.)

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon_members

They sure go back a long way!

Not sure how to verify that but they have sure been around. IIRC they are also the only remaining fraternity or sorority that was founded in the pre-civil war south. Makes you wonder about their legacy of race relations given that as the jumping off point.

that they were founded at the University of Alabama.

Isn't that on their license plates ?

Alabama - where diversity goes to die.

Every university could dissolve their association with SAE, but doubtful they would unless they had evidence implicting their own chapter.

how it is and will continue to shape and expose the underbelly of The Dark Side.

I remember the first time a cell phone was implicated in telling the truth to Power who were lying out there ears...it was a student demonstration and the police were, as usual, overreacting. Alexander Graham Bell and all other precursors of our now common cell phone would be thrilled that it has gone far beyond just talking to one another.

Add the internet, and it's viral/global almost instantly. Hopefully it will force some into better behavior.

(Oh,and then there Mitt's 47% snafu.)

"Why so gloomy?" I asked.

"I HATE Youtube!" she said.

THIS had just occurred:

I freakin LOVE the internets!

Everyone is a witness to history now.

'Furthermore, we are embarrassed by this video and offer our empathy not only to anyone outside the organization who is offended but also to our brothers who come from a wide range of backgrounds, cultures and ethnicities.'

SAE has more than 200 chapters across the country, 15,000 undergraduate members and around 200,000 alumni. The mission of Sigma Alpha Epsilon is 'to promote the highest standards of friendship, scholarship, and service for our members based upon the ideals set forth by our Founders and as specifically enunciated in our creed, The True Gentleman.'

For more than half a century, new members are required to memorize and recite the following:

'A True Gentleman is the man whose conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety, and whose self-control is equal to all emergencies; who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity; who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another; who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements; who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy; whose deed follows his word; who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own; and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2986612/New-video-emerges-showing-Oklahoma-frat-brother-trying-stop-recording-racist-chant-fury-erupts-campus-president-gives-members-36-hours-vacate-house.html#ixzz3TvhkKmyi

'...conduct proceeds from good will and an acute sense of propriety...'

These guys didn't have that.

'...who does not make the poor man conscious of his poverty, the obscure man of his obscurity, or any man of his inferiority or deformity...'

Not sure they understand that.

'...who is himself humbled if necessity compels him to humble another...'

Really, now?

'...who does not flatter wealth, cringe before power, or boast of his own possessions or achievements...'

Well, nothing proves that, more than them reveling in white privilege, huh.

'...who speaks with frankness but always with sincerity and sympathy...'

Obviously speaking with frankness... as to the rest, forgetaboutit.

'...whose deed follows his word...'

I sure as hell hope not.

'...who thinks of the rights and feelings of others, rather than his own...'

Yeah, sure.

'...and who appears well in any company, a man with whom honor is sacred and virtue safe...'

People that talk about stringing people up and laugh about it can say they will keep their honor and virtue safe, as they don't have any to keep. Like giving up what one never does for Lent.

This is why, growing up in the South, I was nauseated by the words 'honor and integrity' as spoken by the chief racists and their groups in those days.

Just sayin'

Founded in 1856 U of Alabama.

I have a pretty good idea of what those ideals were.

racism is endemic in that frat, if not in many frats.

Check out the Wikipedia article on SAE.

According to Wikipedia, SAE was founded at the Univ of Alabama in 1856 and is the only national fraternity founded in the ante-bellum South.

The fraternity had fewer than 400 members when the Civil War began. Of those, 369 went to war for the Confederate States and seven for the Union Army.

The Kappa Alpha Order (AKA, the Southern Gents, AKA, the baby klan) was founded in 1865 at Washington College in Lexington, Virginia.

For years, their only active chapter above the Mason-Dixon line was located at my under-graduate University.

I know about this group because its name is familiar to the name of my Fraternity, Kappa Alpha Psi. We had a couple uncomfortable occasions where visiting members of their fraternity, saw the letters of our house and thought they would be welcomed.

They openly displayed the Confederate flag and had a cannon in front of their house. They were regarded as the hardest drinkers on campus and as far as I know the only non-white member in the fraternity was a guy from Puerto Rico. It was also the only fraternity house that I never visited.

I also do not remember any minorities in the Phi Delta Theta house, but that may only apply to the university I attended. There was not much diversity on campus when I attended as an undergrad.

The Chapter that I was initiated into had a Caucasian brother and an Asian guy is one of the National officers.

I thought they were as old and as southern as SAE. They may not still do it, but the big event of the year used to be the Old South Ball (maybe is SMU specific event, but either way...) everyone dressed in Civil War gray unis etc.... and yes with a cannon out front of the house until fairly recently.

I'm not sure what's more disturbing, that this is a widespread aspect of a fraternity or that there are people arguing the chant is acceptable because African-Americans can use the n-word.

Or if it's a recent thing? Of course my dad went to school when YouTube and Facebook didn't exist.

that's the best way to answer any questions you might have.

Inquiring minds want to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon_members


U.S. Senate

Max Baucus - U.S. Senator from Montana (D), Stanford University
J.C.W. Beckham - Former U.S. Senator from Kentucky (D); youngest Governor of Kentucky; namesake of Beckham County, Oklahoma, Centre College
Jim DeMint - U.S. Senator from South Carolina (R), University of Tennessee
Pete Domenici - Former U.S. Senator from New Mexico (R), University of New Mexico
Peter Fitzgerald - Former U.S. Senator from Illinois (R), Dartmouth College
John J. Hickey - Former Wyoming governor and U.S. Senator (D), University of Wyoming
Johnny Isakson - U.S. Senator from Georgia (R), University of Georgia
Connie Mack III - Former Florida U.S. Senator (R), University of Florida
Larry Pressler - Former South Dakota U.S. Senator (R), University of South Dakota
David Pryor - Former Arkansas Governor and U.S. Senator (D), University of Arkansas
Mark Pryor - U.S. Senator from Arkansas (D), University of Arkansas
George Smathers- Former U.S. Senator and Congressman from Florida (D), philanthropist, University of Florida
Dennis Chavez - Former U.S. Senator from New Mexico University of New Mexico
Richard Russell - Former US Senator from Georgia University of Georgia

U.S. House of Representatives

Bill Archer - Former U.S. Representative (R), Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, University of Texas at Austin
Andy Barr (U.S. politician) - US Representative from Kentucky (R) University of Virginia
David E. Bonior - Former US Representative from Michigan (D), University of Iowa
Allen Boyd - Former US Representative from Florida (D), Florida State University
Jay Dickey - Former US Representative from Arkansas (R), University of Arkansas
David Dreier - US Representative from California (R), University of La Verne
Hamilton C. Jones - Former US Representative from North Carolina (D) UNC Chapel Hill
Thomas W. Ewing - Former US Representative from Illinois (R), Millikin University
Paul Gillmor - Former US Representative from Ohio (R), Ohio Wesleyan University
J. Alex McMillan - Former US Representative from North Carolina (R), UNC Chapel Hill
Ralph Regula - Former US Congressman from Ohio (R), Mount Union College
John Shadegg - Former US Congressman from Arizona (R), University of Arizona
Charles Walter "Charlie" Stenholm - Former US Congressman from Texas (D), Texas Tech University
Gilbert Brown Patterson - Former US Congressman from North Carolina (D) UNC Chapel Hill

Governors

Sherman Adams - Former Governor of New Hampshire (R); Representative from New Hampshire's 2nd District; White House Chief of Staff, Dartmouth College
Haley Barbour - Former Governor of Mississippi (R); former chairman of the Republican National Committee, University of Mississippi
Joe Foss - Former South Dakota Governor (R); Medal of Honor recipient; leading USMC ace pilot, 1st Commissioner of the AFL, former NRA President, University of South Dakota
William L. Guy - Former North Dakota Governor (D), North Dakota State University
Gary Johnson - Former Governor of New Mexico (L), University of New Mexico
Paul B. Johnson, Jr. - Former Governor of Mississippi (D), University of Mississippi
John Lynch - Former Governor of New Hampshire (D), University of New Hampshire
Sidney S. McMath - Former Governor of Arkansas (D), Marine General & Renowned Trial Lawyer, University of Arkansas
Robert D. Ray - Former Governor of Iowa (R), Drake University
Robert D. Blue - Former Governor of Iowa, Drake University
Brian Sandoval - Current Governor of Nevada University of Nevada


Other Notable Government Officials

Henry M. Paulson - Former U.S. Treasury Secretary, Former CEO of Goldman Sachs Group, Dartmouth College

..but never to this degree. I'd have to say I'd likely disown them, not legally, but our relationship could never be the same.

Some of these kids may have been brought up this way and are safe from family reprisal, so I'm glad society is slapping them down. Unless they're studying to be a Klan lawyer or a republican congressman they'll never get anywhere in life.

Nice job dumbasses. Try to get a refund on that college education on the basis that you were too stupid to have been accepted to begin with.

take turns disappointing you? I thought that was impossible for grandparents to be disappointed in their grandkids.

But, yeah, these guys? It'll be hard to get a job or anything. This will follow them. There was an article I read recently about the girl who pulled the stunt in front of the Vietnam Memorial (I think that was it) in which she gave the middle finger. It made its rounds all around FB and social media, and she said it follows her to job interviews years later. Almost unhireable because of a thoughtless joke.

ETA: And I believe that this frat chant is MUCH more than a thoughtless joke. Reprehensible.

..several more do something to make me quite proud. I'm never mad at all of them at once. They seem to take turns getting in trouble with the law, getting appalling body ink, or destroying expensive gifts I've given them.

As for that girl at the memorial, it wasn't a big deal, but social media can be like putting everything on the front page of the newspaper. Something that wouldn't have happened 20 years ago.

SAE didn't have a chapter at my university, but he transferred over from University of Michigan which did have one. This was twenty years ago, so if this was a universal chant that spread to all chapters, it would appear that some chapters changed their attitudes on race as time progressed. Chapters of a fraternity are pretty unique from university to university. At one school SAE may be the fraternity that the racists gravitate towards, at another SAE may be the athletes, at another SAE may be the guys who party the hardest, and at another SAE may be the guys who want to do things like organize community service events and study groups. I know the national organizations would prefer the individual chapters to be filled with role models but in the end a chapter won't survive without successful rushes, and birds of a feather will tend to flock together. I'm not sure how SAE does their own quality control, but my fraternity would have chapter consultants come in every year and evaluate, and every once in a while a chapter would get shut down if they didn't like what they saw.

started around the time of the Civil War and was originally a distinctly Confederate and Southern organization.

From the SAE fraternity's site:

Sigma Alpha Epsilon was founded on March 9, 1856, at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Its founders were Noble Leslie DeVotie, Nathan Elams Cockrell, John Barratt Rudulph, John Webb Kerr, Samuel Marion Dennis, Wade Hampton Foster, Abner Edwin Patton, and Thomas Chappell Cook. Their leader was DeVotie, who wrote the ritual, created the grip, and chose the name. Rudulph designed the badge. Of all existing national social fraternities today, Sigma Alpha Epsilon is the only national fraternity founded in the antebellum South.

Founded in a time of intense sectional feeling, Sigma Alpha Epsilon confined its growth to the southern states. By the end of 1857, the fraternity numbered seven chapters. Its first national convention met in the summer of 1858 at Murfreesboro, Tennessee, with four of its eight chapters in attendance. By the time of the outbreak of the American Civil War in 1861, fifteen chapters had been established.

None of the founders of SAE were members of any other fraternity, although Noble Leslie DeVotie had been invited to join all of the other fraternities at the University of Alabama before founding Sigma Alpha Epsilon.
The Founding of Sigma Alpha Epsilon.

The fraternity had fewer than 400 members when the Civil War began. Of those, 369 went to war for the Confederate States and seven for the Union Army. Seventy-four members of the fraternity lost their lives in the war.

http://www.sae.net/page.aspx?pid=756

So the SAE's current behavior is true to its history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon_members


I wonder if some enterprising reporters will ask if any of these folks had to do the chant to get in?

My fraternity boasts Vice-President Henry Wallace and Supreme Court Justice William Brennan as alums. Much more my kind of fellows.

There's no institutional racism. Anymore. Or something.

SAE "experience".

(back in the mid/late 50's before it was Carnegie Mellon) he was in a fraternity (I don't remember which one just that it was not SAE). He said that the way they described SAE was "Half the world is white and free, all the rest are SAE." Not sure how that fits this.

They were racist as fuck, generally speaking. Nearly all of the fraternities at Alabama were racist as fuck, still are. I can testify with confidence that it was the same at every major public university campus in the South, and I'll bet a million to one it still is.

I quit the fraternity right after initiation and never went back.

Racism is alive and and as strong in the south as ever. It makes my brain freeze up whenever someone from the south denies it.

But it's also in the North and West.

Makes my brain freeze up when someone places it all on the south.

Just sayin.

there are regional differences.

Growing up in California, we went back to see family in Texas (my parents come from there and also Oklahoma). Riding in the back of the station wagon with my cousins, I learned many things I had never heard before, such as how they used the n-word instead of "tiger" in the old eenie meinie moe (no ide how to spell that, lol). It wasn't racist to them, it was what they were used to, the air they breathed. Us from California had never heard it.

I know it's out here, and everywhere, but there are large regional differences in racial attitudes.

As I stated up thread, my chapter at NAU was diverse - black, Hispanic, Asian, Native and white.

It was an eye-opening experience though to go our National Conclave back in 1987. The differences between the southern chapters and the rest of the country was stark. The southern chapter reps were 100% white, while the rest of the country had reps that while majority white, had black, Asian and Hispanic reps.

I roomed with a guy from one of Mississippi chapters - he was fascinated by the non-white brothers, since no chapter in LA, MS, AR or AL had any at the time, and admitted that a black trying to pledge his chapter wouldn't get in.

The Fraternity as a whole has worked very hard to root out these attitudes. Mostly successfully, but underground, I would imagine there are still pockets of tit.

I've lived in the deep south my whole life. I know its people, culture, history, and politics very well. I'm not completely unfamiliar with the "outside world" -- I do read and travel, but the deep south is the locus of my personal experience. Racist attitudes are not much changed among whites in the South since the civil rights era. Only the outside appearance has. Racism is only more private and hidden from public view, but the intensity and pervasiveness is only slightly different.

If any of our chapters showed overt racism, they'd be expelled immediately. But no doubt there are racists at some of the chapters.

University of Texas has the reputation of being a bastion of liberalism. You figure these guys were progressives?

a small portion of students belonged to fraternities/sororities in the 80s. You will find the children of industry, politicians, the sports stars on campus etc. I vaguely remember the SAE house at Wisconsin and not for good things. But house reputations vary nationwide.

we should consider a campaign to eliminate SAE from the university campus entirely.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Alpha_Epsilon

How do people end up like that?

connect in some way to hating, demeaning, denying, screwing over, stereotyping, killing or wanting to kill black people? It seems to me they spend a lot of waking time doing all this. Lawmakers seem to spend every moment of figuring out how to obstruct the government from helping people because SOME of those helped MIGHT be black.

in elementary school in the 1950s in South Florida. It went like this: "Eenie, menie, minee, mo, catch a n****r by the toe. If he hollers, let him go. Eenie, menie, minee, mo.

I'd delete that...