As long as government officials are allowed to have private e-mail systems even if it's mandated they use government e-mail systems what's to stop them from using their private e-mail system to conduct government business they want to remain private?

But that begs the question why any sentient person would send information he wants to remain private over the internet and create an electronic paper trail.

There is a reason for all of this, to create a record of all communication done in the name of the people that pay their salaries. Government is HARDLY the only entity that is required to do this, finance is, as well.

Because MONEY. Paper trail. Law. Do you know how many laws you break as an email administrator that DOES NOT archive email for an SEC regulated company? Do you realize the bond said administrator has to have on their head in case they fuck up and don't? Do you realize said administrator could go to jail?

But hey. Somebody in government does it, bleh. That's just fine. It was just fine when Republicans did it, it's just fine when Democrats do it, but make sure that everybody else ...

If X is going to do something wrong they could just use their private e-mail. Hell, no sentient person is going to create an electronic paper trail of his or wrongdoing in the first place.

You missed the point. You do NOT understand what the law explicitly states.

No sentient person is going to create an electronic paper trail of his or her wrongdoing in the first place, which is why every damn thing they do is supposed to be archived to prove they are not committing wrongdoing.

Wrong at the time or they think they are being too clever to get caught. It is after the fact they realize that they need to cover up their tracks and destroy documents.

and provides a check on someone that may not realize on the face of it that they are breaking the law. It's beneficial for both parties.

Maybe such folks don't rise to your test of sentience but I find it kind of gross that any and all efforts at transparency and accountability in government just is pointless because the bad seeds will always do what they do.

At this point folks are starting to sound like unethical defenders and facilitators of unaccountable Nixon like crooks just having a free hand making us subjects rather than citizens public employees are answerable to.

What these folks do in their official capacities is not theirs to disseminate or to pick and choose what is what, if it is private then use your private account and just know that if an email comes to light that is acting in your official capacity then it means you are looking at prison and I shenanigans will be more limited.

Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good. Laws don't prevent crimes they deal with the ones that commit them and perhaps offer deterrence at times.

No shit the roaches will run to the shadows but the answer is not to remove all the light bulbs.

1) i am in favor of transparency
2) I am in favor of judging everybody by the same standards
3)My point is that as long as public officials are allowed to have private e-mail systems,I see no way of prohibiting them from having one , they can keep private what they want to keep private.
4) But that begs the question. Actually it begs for an answer; only a moron or a masochist would send inculpatory information over the internet.

Sure it is, make it illegal to conduct official business using private systems with serious consequences and the shady or careless person dealing with other shady or careless people will have to keep in mind they are putting their ass in a sling because the person on the other end can roll on them without consequences or as I would set it up a substantial reward, like millions.

If you know that phone call, fax, email, or what have you could be a lottery ticket for anyone who has it and pure trouble for you it forces even the seediest of bad seeds to at least tighten up and limits the opportunity to act inappropriately to very limited circumstances.

and follow your philosophy.

and simultaneously agree with not having correspondence that is done in the name of the public (or monied interest) being un-archived.

and that is what the law is there to prevent.

is that these people created a world where no one could be assured of the privacy of their email, and then operated as if was a given that their own private email was secure. Perhaps they do not understand the full scope of the surveillance monster they have created?

Under the law all correspondence conducted in the interest of the public has to be archived. It's pure and simple.

Makes sense, right? But we are supposed to respect the correspondence of people that are in our employ and the people that are the ones responsible for such can go to jail for not doing so, but the people that order said folks to violate it are not held under scrutiny.

I'm pretty sure that there have been carrier pigeons operating since time immemorial and I'm pretty sure that some of them were put to death if they messed up.

... even if there is no association.

So he's made it a crime for her not to turn over all the emails.

This plays well to a certain segment of the public....

I was very aware in 2006 what laws were broken, and in 2015, I'm just as aware.

But this is what is the fundamental problem in DC. You commit a crime in 2006, you get a pass. You commit a crime in 2015, you get a pass. You commit a crime in ....

I wasn't looking for it, but I sure as hell think my restraint ...

that should concern the hell out of us, but I'm not going to go there.

to comment on this. She is very pro-Hillary, so I believe that she is actually someone that is believable to comment on this.

I'm not making this up. As I said, I was extremely upset by this in 2006. I feel certain she could parse out the law better than I can as one that was merely required to follow it.

There's no requirement to 'archive' everything. During HRC 's time in office, there was nothing wrong with her using a server set up under the auspices of the SS. She seems to have complied with requirements of reporting.

You should be upset by 2006. There, deletions and subterfuge were used to deliberately conceal official content and contact as part of a larger conspiracy to mislead the Congress on what available materials there were.

Where I think you miss the mark?

You seem to have made the legal assumption that deletion = crime. That's not what the law says.

You also seem to think that 'archiving' means "keep everything." It does not.

Finally.....you don't seem to take into account in your analysis the basic conflict of law and agency policy. Without analysis of that, there's little substantive critique.

if that is your take on this matter, you are not familiar with the law that people that are the nuts and bolts behind communications labor under.

I, unfortunately am, because I know what the consequences of not doing so are.

If you are willing to be my lawyer and get me out of trouble when I violate them, I hope you will do it pro bono, because I have had to follow the law, have a bond placed on me, and commit to following it throughout my career.

I absolutely dare anyone to tell me that I do not understand Telecommunications Law.

But suddenly it is urgently needing of fixing when a Democrat is doing it when it should have been fixed when a Republican was doing it.

That is what is the crux of the matter.

It's always going to be up to Dems to clean up messes, which is why Dems in office always need to make sure they're cleaning things up and not just letting them slide under the 'They did it first!' mantra.

Because the US public was furious at what had been done under Republicans, which was nothing. Leahy had a golden opportunity to actually prosecute some folks ... Had law on his side ... and did absolutely not a damn thing.

Leahy was the one who publicly accused the Bush administration of lying about the emails.


He also issued subpoenas.

Don't forget that it was a republican appointed Justice dept. and Gonzales was forced to resign...

You have a myopic view of events and it's almost laughable that you've come down on Leahy as the culprit.

Right there, everyone can see them.

...less than a full deck.

but the facts don't change.

On Tue Mar 10, 2015, 07:47 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

evidently
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6344980

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

A humorous and extremely apt personal attack but a personal attack nonetheless

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Mar 10, 2015, 08:25 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is silly. More of a jibe than an attack. Nothing mean spirited about it. I'm all for hiding personal attacks and being fairly strict about it but this is hardly that.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sufficiently humorous and hyperbolic to withstand the alert.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

that I didn't make that alert. I think I am pretty much able to stand on my own when there is verbal roughhousing without needing to have a crowd behind me.

In fact, I thought it was kind of funny.

I agree with Bigtree more times than I disagree.

...you do seem a bit defensive here.

The beauty (or bane) of the alert system is that it is anonymous -- there is no way for anyone to verify your statement. Those who believe you would have probably already assumed it wasn't you, and those who don't won't buy your denial.

I agree with bigtree more times than I disagree, eggplant.

If you choose to believe differently and make the conversation absolutely not about the current topic and detract from that topic, go for it.

Did you alert on it? Kind of odd. You know eggplant is poisonous eaten in too much of a quantity, since it is of the nightshade family.

I have no reason to disbelieve you. I've had other people alert on posts I've responded to as well.

Mine was but a meta-comment. Nothing more.

I wish you well.

I thought it was funny.

I like it when people can disagree and still retain their sense of humor.

...it was a play on not including all of the info (with a bit of a rude slam). Not a serious remark on your mental capacity, though, on the slam part. I'm glad you knew that. Nice to see that someone cares enough about you to defend your state of mind, lol.

Flesh that issue out to the end and I think you'd make a good point about the relationship of that true email scandal and this kerfuffle over Hillary.

but I certainly believe in keeping to the issues.

I am upset if any took my strident position on this as a slam against Hillary Clinton, bigtree, because it wasn't.

I took it as a slam against my profession, which I was angry about several years earlier.

I have a lot of respect for you, bigtree.

...et al.

If Jeb keeps up his swawking, he'll get more than he bargained for in the way of reopening that whole fight over his bro's administration's missing emails.

I'm not a big fan of shifting the blame into Leahy, though...maybe onto Reid and the rest of the party/committee. Still, I reserve most of the blame for republicans, where it belongs; especially now that Leahy's role is moot.

No matter, though/ As i found out, bringing all of that up is a convenient political wedge for too many here to make accusations of trying to excuse Clinton for something I think is a tempest in a teapot.I still think we'll get to that issue of the Bush admin's missing emails, but it'll have to come at the behest of someone other than me. I'd actually like to see us stop talking about emails and focus on something other than this manufactured, deliberate distraction/diversion.

Best regards.

you get it. As usual.

NOBODY gave two shits about all the emails and correspondence between ENRON and Andersen! They downplayed the mail and email like it was no big deal...emails...boring...no dick picks...no other embarrassing confessions...boring boring boring.

SO NOW we are HERE in 2015 and the GOP is howling mad about it! Short attention spans equal a dystopian society, eventually imo.

Let it slide for my buddy, and if I get a favorable deal out of it,

Short Attention Span Theater.

We have lawyers that visit our DU site. I'd like to hear from one of them that my summation of events is wrong. I *invite* it.

I'm not faulting Hillary so much as I am pissed we have arrived at this location when we never should have been here in the first place.

We do have some smart lawyers on DU, I agree this should be interesting.

We have arrived at a location that should have been stopped way back in 2000. Hell, if someone would have actually PUNISHED (GASP) the people responsible for Iran-Contra or maybe if Nixon WOULD HAVE gone to jail...this country would be sooo different.

YET we just keep letting these asshole republicans commit crime after crime after crime...NOW in 2015 we have to deal with TREASON! 47 traitors undermined the POTUS authority during a time of war and last I checked, Afghanistan is right next to Iran! Dems MUST NOW stand up and stop this shit. No more not taking a stand!

I would love to write my Senators and express my opinion, but I live in Texas and I bet both the morons signed the letter of treachery.

and even one Republican Senator in my state wasn't stupid enough to go along with it.

Hmm...I am going to look and see if both Texas morons voted for it. Cruz is on there, but I don't remember the other GOPukers name.

at times. I kind of savor the times when I can say "Gee, a Republican MS Senator did something not-stupid today."

look what we've been able to accomplash.

Which is why I am speaking up about this, because I know exactly how this went down.

tried "don't cut off your nose to spite your face"
by '16 it'll be "circular firing squad" and "NAAADER caused 9-11, Iraq, and Lebanon"

Aerows herself failed the Democratic party because she criticized it.

Our party is so frail that criticizing it with a breath could bring it to it's knees. /s

is that when handing over emails to the public (they have to be handed over since they were not part of the State department emal), Hillary gets to choose up-front which ones to hand over, keeping the others on the grouds that they were personal. That's an excellent reason to require using the official government system, we should never (whether it's a Bush or a Clinton or anyone) have to trust that the selections were properly made. I've heard Jeb Bush did something similar when he was Florida's governor, doesn't make it right, to the contrary. If they had some truly personal emails to send that they would not want to come under public scrutiny, they should have done so using an account that was different than the one they used for official business.

Another troubling aspect of this is the claim that any State department emails would have been backed up by the State Dept. system when they were received by a State department employee. That doesn't wash. Many official duty Clinton emails probably went directly to corporations, foreign heads of state and dignitaries, and private citizens. When you work somewhere, it isn't only the emails sent to other employees where you work that are part of your business activities, it also includes all of those other emails sent to outside interests.

I don't see this email scandal as a huge issue, it is, however, indicative of the kind of things we can look forward to with a Clinton presidency. Rather than openness and serving the people's interest, it's a more closed system representing business interests that goes to great lengths to aviod being held accountable.

Oh, one more thing, Issa is truly a POS, I support nothing that man does, he belongs in a prison, not in Congress.

as the person doing the overseeing.

That is why I blame Leahy. He was advised by over one hundred engineers as to why, how, and a way to prosecute the Republicans in 2006-7 ... and did absolutely nothing with that data.

That wasn't even just Democrats, that included some Republicans, and Independents.

I consider him one of the better ones, though that often isn't good enough. Have you dugdeeply into this issue, why he let it slide? Go along to get along? Our side has often frustrated us with such spinelessness, if that is what it was. NO doubt he has his funders and their interests to look out for, too, which is often at the root of these kind of capitulations.

"Go along to get along".

Here we are.

I don't remember. If he was, I take your point. If not, he may not have had the 'weight' to move something like that thru??
Just asking.

And I am still upset at the pass given to Republicans doing this, while knowing that everybody should have sat in jail.

If Senator Leahy doesn't remember the mail he was sent during the 2007 session, well, archiving of his correspondence could help his recollection.

It is so for reasons of legality that you can expose that you did not break the law.

Still waiting for msanthrope to come into this thread and comment. She's far better qualified than me to comment on matters of legality.

As I said - I just had to follow law as a person that administered an Exchange email system and other communications system, I didn't dictate it.

I used to have 3 email accounts set up on one blackberry back in they timeframe.

I've had 9 years to let it distill while I'm pissed about it.

I remember being really angry about Iraq, Katrina, the Patriot Act and Abu Ghraib. That was all horrendous. Somehow emails didn't register.

when the Democratic party took over Congress, and early 2007.

I only know this because it was after Katrina knocked the heck out of us and we were rebuilding, I was angry at how horrible the response was to the tragedy, and became much more politically aware.

Katrina truly caused a change in my attitude. I became aware that politics did matter because if you don't pay attention, you could be wiped away and no one would care.

I'm not supposed to give a fuck when Republicans break the law, so it paves the way for Democrats to break it, too.

I'm relieved, I thought I was supposed to give a fuck when Republicans broke the law.

Well, since I am white, fairly wealthy and good-looking (according to myself) I'll just do whatever I want, ignore consequences that won't be forthcoming and be blissful in the knowledge that giving a crap has gone out of style.

Now more than ever.

and since we are all discussing correspondence, the GOP sunk the boat.

or skewered in some way. Republicans can do whatever the fuck they want and we never call them on it or even if we do, we don't do anything about it. They always do what they have always done because they always get away with their shit....because we never do anything about it when we have the chance.