I will assume white supremacists are the shooters until a credible source proves otherwise, I will decide what I consider a credible source

for instance NO authority in the state of MO will be a credible source

Because my scenario is unheard of, never happens, right?

There is no history of provocateurs creating violence, right?

yup

African- American Katrina survivors were accused of shooting at rescue helicopters - they did not.

and NOLA police officers executed African-American refugees fleeing across local bridges.

and yeah - I was in Katrina and watched it go down on local NOLA TV news.

yup

Your assumption, rigidity, and standards are hilarious.

His point is that LE in general and Missouri in particular have utterly destroyed their credibility to such a point that they cannot be believed.

Personally, I would not believe a Ferguson cop if he told me the sun was shinning at noon on a cloudless day without checking it for myself.

white supremacists? What are you even thinking?

history is our best teacher

were convinced that the DC snipers were a couple of white dudes.

If history teaches us anything, it's not to just simply assume (and without evidence), based on beliefs.

Sure... it's possible that it might have been an Aryan Nations type, just as it's equally possible it
might have been a black or Hispanic nationalist type, or just some crazy loser with no agenda pumping off
rounds just to make headlines.

just like you believed that Antonio Martin didn't have a gun that night that he was shot, even though his friend that was with him confirmed that he did have a gun and did try to shoot the cop, or just like you said that Vonderitt Myers was executed by an off duty cop, even though all evidence pointed to the cop shooting him after he shot at the cop.

Your credibility is, well, suspect when it comes to officer involved shootings.

Gotta blame the blacks first, and black supporters if there ain't no black people to blame.

Them white supremacists and stuff don't do stuff like that! Well, except for Oklahoma City.

And these guys: http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/vegas-cop-killers/two-cops-three-others-killed-las-vegas-shooting-spree-n125766

And this guy: http://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/7342821-Report-White-supremacist-shot-cop-7-times/

Or these guys: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/24/us/24arkansas.html?pagewanted=all

AR-15 ain't no handgun.

It can be a handgun
http://daytonatactical.com/collections/complete-ar-15-pistol-kits

This is why law enforcement is concerned over the armor piercing rounds.

I did not know that.

ready built for $449(Extar EXP-556) and scope capable. That shot could be made with one provided the bullet doesn't tumble. On one site, they say the 8 inch barrel produces 2400 fps vs 3000 fps with a 16" barrel. I can see why the cops are worried. They would have to go to ceramic insert type vest for any defense against these.

Considering two out of four rapid fire hits to the upper body of people standing 10-15 feet apart. Even with a rifle with a scope, that was accurate shooting.

This guy put several rounds 3+ in a quarter sized group at 100 yards with a Keltec PLR-16 with a scope. (pic is lower right, second from bottom).
http://www.gunblast.com/Kel-Tec_PLR-16.htm

But seriously, those shots at that range? With accuracy at 120 yards? With a handgun? That would change the profile of the shooter, IF the police were the intended targets.

If the shooter hit their mark, I would think the shooter is more likely a veteran (as am I) or a "good ole boy" - an above average or experienced (if not expert) shot - because this was some good shooting in this case.

There are a "few" in the area that could do it. It is likely an experienced shooter no matter the type of gun used.

Any .223 fired from one of those will penetrate soft body armor, be it "armor piercing" or a $10 box of Walmart plinking ammo.

That's why the guns need to be reclassed as short rifles and heavily regulated accordingly.

My buddy used it in his mini 14. It will penetrate 1" steel. He blew a hole through a trailer hitch with his.

But police issue soft armor isn't metal armor plate, any .223 round will defeat level IIIA armor. The next step up, level III (hard plate), is specifically rated to stop 5 shots of M855...there isn't any police armor that will stop pure lead, but won't handle SS109 bullets.

I shot a 1 1/4" trailer hitch with vanilla .308 FMJ at 50 yards once, it vaporized. There were a few chrome flecks in the grass, but I never did find much else.
Not as satisfying as the time I got lucky and hit a hard drive dead square in the spindle with a 22-250 with a superfast 40 grain at about 15 yards. Velocity trumps bullet design every time…just a cloud of grey dust floating away and a soft rain of metallic sand. Apocryphally, at close ranges the 250 will out-penetrate even the latest .30 cal tungsten AP stuff.

but hitting someone at 120 yards with a handgun is awfully damned hard.

At 125 yards, a .223 from a rifle to the head would be if not instantly lethal, massively traumatic...certainly nothing you'd be out of hospital in less than a day over.

the first 100 or so posts to be of the: "That's nothing! I once shot the toe-nails off a fly at 600 yards ... with both of us in full flight (the fly was flying away and I had just jumped off my horse).

Judge for yourself if you could hit a person at that range with a handgun. You can barely see the steps near which the officers were standing when hit. Then magnify twice. Clear, easy shot.

Pistol or rifle, there was likely a scope at that range to hit 2 of 4 shots.

No. Most likely a rifle with a scope.

are scrutinized they will find they don't know shit yet. I seriously doubt that a hand gun was used. for one thing one if not both of the projectiles would not have penetrated totally. Could have been still in the subjects bodies and if thats the case it will be pretty dang easy to figure out the type of gun used. IMO

A barrel length of a few inches is going to loose most of the energy of the powder. Where as with a rifle with a 20 or so inch barrel it will be traveling at a higher rate of speed due to the longer time in the barrel getting a push from the expanding gases.
I don't believe the cops. it would be in their favor if this was from the protesters so they're looking to prove that without a thorough examination of the evidence. Like the cameras I mentioned earlier. If the cameras record noises they should be able to pretty much pin point where the shots came from. I'm not sure security cameras record noises or not

i may be full of shit though and in time I'll either be vindicated or shown how stupid I was. I admit I'm not much into guns. Haven't owned but one in my life, 66 yo, and that was only for a few days at most. I carried a 38 or a 45 while in 'Nam depending on a lot of factors for that day. To far removed that I don't really remember what the criteria I used for which was.

Back in the Day, I worked as a Counselor in a prison. We were required to take fire arms training (but not required to qualify like the COs).

We were shooting 38s and 9mms. After shooting from about 75 feet, the range master said:

"1SBM! Did you fire 6 shoots?"

"Yes sir. I did."

"Check your weapon."

"Are you sure you fired 6 shoots."

"Yes sir. I did."

"Well. You only hit the target one time ... you got it in the head, but 1 out of 6 is pretty poor shooting."

"Well sir. When I hit it in the head, I didn't need to shoot any more. Besides, pistols are defensive weapons ... I'm not going to shoot at anything that far away."

I also think the carbine concept another poster presented could be more likely. I inherited several competition modified pistols from family and for a while got very good at target shooting. I think your experience with the old .45s in 'Nam may have soured your view on handgun capability. Those were often worn out (too much cleaning wears the barrel and reduces accuracy).

9 to 1100 fps.

I know that on a cloudy day if I fire above the horizon a tad with a mountain as a back drop and keep both eyes open I can see a 45 projectile and after a few shots like that I can see where its shooting in relation to the sights so you have a much better chance of hitting a target. I was pretty much a point and shoot, eye to hand coordination shooter though in fact I never remembered trying to hit anything buy using the sights. If shooting a rifle and I keep my eyes focused right where I want to hit I'll most like hit right there.

The normal wobble of the body can throw the shot off. I doubt that these could be made standing. It's also possible the shooter didn't make an effort to aim much and just happened to put the rounds where they did.

When I target shoot, I'm always using the sights. Of course, competition modified pistols have nicer sights with adjustable dovetails on them.

so I learned early on if I concentrated on where I wanted the bullet to hit I did much better than if I relied on sighting a shot in. I used the sights to ensure I was pointing at the target but rely on that eye to hand coordination I speak of from that point on. the navy tried to teach me to line my sights up to the side of the target then pull the trigger as I passed pass the target. I just faked it and shot as I learned to shoot. No one caught on to my insubordination

At 125 yards, even with the added velocity of a longer barrel, a fat, unaerodynamic pistol bullet has shed so much velocity I could easily see it being ineffectual enough to cause these relatively minor injuries.

For more info, google "ballistic coefficient".

there is nothing more effective than this.

Nothing

but thanks.

Or at least pay a little less attention to the other issue.

Is every thing a CT to you?

Could you, even if you had lots of time to set up a pistol shot, no scope? If you can, you should be in the Olympics.

And they weren't trying to hit a 2 inch diameter circle from 25-50 yards.

Then magnify once then twice. It's not at all a clear target without magnification. The cops who were hit were standing on either side of the flag pole. There were no more than 4 rapid fire shots. Even with a rifle with a scope, that hit ratio shows a competent marksman. With a hand gun I just just don't buy it. This wasn't an impulse
shooting. It was planned.

as long as I didn't enter thinking into the equation, once I did that all bets were off.
i have a bb/pellet rifle, daisy 880, and the last time I was trying eye to hand coordination I was way off. thats been a few years ago, I'd actually forgot I had it until I seen it on the back of a shelf in the shop a while back, dusty, still is as I just made note of where it was and that I still had it. I bought it to kill the cotton mouths we have around here but the two times I tried to use it for that the snake wasn't going to just lay there and let me shoot it so I had to get a shovel to do the dirty work with. I won't bother a snake no matter the kind it is but when it scares me by being in my wren house on my back porch or in my storage shed I have a tendency to get pretty exited and kill is all I know in that case. Out in the woods mushroom hunting and I run across a snake I go the other way and then have the heebeegeebees the rest of the hunt. I hate it when that happens.

Naked eye would be very difficult. With a scope, easy shot. No one except a real expert could do it with a handgun. But any idiot can buy an AR15 knockoff at Wal*Mart with a standard scope for the same money.

No one can say whether it was a "good" shot or not. The shooters may have been shooting at something or someone else and just happened to hit those officers. The line of police was an area target. Shoot in the general direction and you're possibly going to hit something or someone.

hit cops in the head or upper body. The shooter knew what he was doing.

why did the other two shots miss? Where I come from a P(sub)h (Probability of hit) of 50% is not so hot.

apparently, they're getting conflicting witness reports, which is not surprising. So it's possible there were two shots fired and two hits ... and that's good shooting ... anywhere one is from.

With a hand gun without magnification. The point is this was no crazy impulse shooter. Maybe crazy but planned.

if the shooter was just firing at the group rather than any specific officer. Since one was hit in the face and seems to have only sustained minor injury, that points to a pistol type round.

Still damned lucky/good to achieve two hits with so few shots from that range.

As details are few, I won't speculate further.

I would bet a pistol caliber carbine- essentially a short rifle that shoots a pistol round. Some even use the same magazine as a corresponding pistol.

By now the PD knows what caliber was fired, so they know if it was a pistol round but it could have come from a carbine.

If I had to guess what kind, purely speculation, I would bet it ends up being a Hi-Point. Crappy little guns (the pistols are junk too) but they are popular in criminal circles because they are cheap.

All that said, 100-150 yard shots are doable with a handgun, but it takes a lot of practice. I saw somewhere a video of a 1000 yard handgun shot, but it was one of the worlds best exhibition shooters.

But with one of those Hi-Points a 100 yard shot is doable by almost anyone. Luckily pistol rounds lose speed much more rapidly than rifle rounds so that doing do nearly as much damage at that kind of distance.

Gang members are at least as notorious as cops for being absolutely horrible shots - to score hits at 125 yards you need to be quite good at it.

That distance tells me that this could very well be a professional, which raises all sorts of interesting follow-up questions such as who would hire one for this event and why.

I could take someone who has never fired a gun, give them a carbine like that, and in 5 minutes have them getting a 50% hit rate on a man sized target at that distance.

With a pistol, yeah that takes skill and practice. With a rifle or carbine its a much simpler task.

ALL The killings of AfAm and destroying of their lives by institutional racism is forgotten

if ONE AfAm shoots a couple cops, which RARELY happens, it will justify massive shootings of AfAm and destruction of their communities

(hit below his eye and lodged behind his ear) I’m going to guess that the slug hit something else before striking the officer.

and no scope.

I probably couldn't make the shots with a handgun reliably, but I know people who could.

the odds of hitting somebody with each shoot was pretty high.

Last edited Thu Mar 12, 2015, 11:08 PM - Edit history (1)

considering the 3 or 4 shots were one right after the other against officers wearing bulletproof vests.

you are assuming the gunman picked out particular targets.

Not an impulse shooter in any case.

long barrel will have a different velocity I would think, due to the shorter barrel only getting push from the expanding gases for a lot less time, lot less distance traveled down the barrel.
so at a 150 yard distance the power of the projectile will be quiet different with a longer barreled rifle being a lot faster. Looking at the physics of it all

gain more from longer barrels than cartridges which don't. Some .357 loads nearly double their energy out of a longer barrel, as I recall, whereas 9mm doesn't gain all that much and .45 ACP gains almost nothing.

I'm reasonably skilled but certainly no champion and I can hit an 8" circle at 200 yards with my carbine and a simple red dot sight, not even a proper scope.

Thank god this nut didn't grab a deer rifle on the way out the door!

It's a damned good shot if he was aiming specifically at those two officers, if not, then I could probably teach you enough in a day to hit something the size of a person with a handgun at 100 yards at least 50% of the time. Essentially the shooter would have had to aim 12 -18" high with either of the two common calibers listed below in the common bullet weights for the respective calibers

Here is some boring technical information:
Calibers Column A= 115 grain 9mm; Column B = 180gr 40 Smith & Wesson
Range Drop(inches) Velocity (feet per second) Energy (Foot Pounds) Time(milliseconds)
Yards A B A B A B A B
0 -1.48 -1.48 1145 985 335 388 1 1
25 -0.00 -0.00 1089 953 303 363 68 78
50 -0.35 -0.91 1043 924 278 341 139 158
75 2.70 -4.36 1004 899 257 323 212 241
100 7.20 -10.51 970 875 240 306 288 325
125 -14.02 -19.49 941 852 226 290 366 412

Source http://gundata.org/ballistic-calculator

I agree a very highly skilled handgun shooter could do 2/4. But not an average shooter with a day's practice.

Presuming of course they have no physical limitations that would limit or prevent them from firing a hand gun.

If it had been a center fire rifle cartridge both officers would still be in the hospital and the officer hit in the head would likely be dead.

I've been shooting for 30+ years, I have a lot of practical, hands on experience with firearms.

Yes the shot *could* be made with a $2000 racegun in skilled hands…

,…or a $229 Hi-Point with a $50 scope and a weekend of practice. I'll go with the esteemed Mr. Occam on this one.

Without a scope, regardless of whether a rifle, carbine or pistol, only a very experienced marksman is likely to hit 50 percent or better under these conditions. I put my money with the OP. This just does not look like a random or impulse shooting.

I'm not going to speculate too much on the who or the why yet, though I do lean towards RWNJ, just the how. Given the available evidence though, I'm pretty much done speculating and have moved to relative certainty, there.

And the worst I'd be doing would be shooting back at the RWNJs

Though yes...I do have a pricey trimmer that cuts to exactly 1.5 mm. And I despise neckbeards so I actually own a razor, too.

Isn't vanity a sin?

..which, as the old joke goes, ends like all Gwyneth Paltrow movies should.

With her head in a box!

and could teach most people to do the same in a day.

Since the shooter was not targeting a specific police officer, just police officers in general, he was pretty certain to get a hit if he was shooting at a group of them together as has been reported.

Mostly it is a matter of knowing how much the bullet will drop over the distance and adjusting your aim accordingly.

The longest shot I remember taking myself was about 90 yards at a 12" diameter steel gong leaning on the hood of a jeep with a 9mm that had a 3" barrel. I could usually hit it a 1/3rd of the time.

And I don't claim to be a great shot, I know any number of shooters who could do the same.

If you fire randomly at a large group of people your bound to hit some one. Could be a complete novice firing randomly towards the crowd and these officers got hit.

hitting a human target at that distance would be difficult, but shooting in the general direction and getting lucky not so difficult.

And, if that holds up with the ballistic evidence, then the shooter would have to be someone who was either (a) experienced with firearms or (b) a reckless person who just shot into a crowd and managed to hit someone.

Saw plans years ago on the Internet for a silencer made from a plastic soft-drink bottle. Just checked, it seems such plans are still available....

but a pistol at 120 yards? Uh, I'm going to give this one the three month sniff test because it smells pretty rotten right now.

The protest was breaking up and people were starting to go home when this happened.

The timing seems weird and if this was a pistol, I'll eat one. Chocolate, of course.

Several models of lever action long guns chamber pistol ammunition. .44 mag, .45 short, .45 long for examples.

a Clark custom long barrel .22 or a Glock .22 with a match grade barrel can do the job. But 2 hits from 4 shots with a handgun at 120 is good. Why do they feel a handgun? Why not a rifle?

about a subject they have little to no knowledge about. As if "I served 4 years in the Army/Navy/Air Force
makes them an authority on the matter.

It's both sad and laughable, really

big discussion on this, and one of the interviewees noted the assertions, largely from police, have been all over the block; there is no consistency.

I begin to suspect a rifle using handgun ammo to bolster police accusation that protestors shot the cops.

Now WHO would go to that trouble?

I doubt those were aimed shots. It's more likely someone saw a cluster of uniforms and busted loose with 4 rounds.