General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy Organic Can't Fulfill Our Food Supply Ideals
http://www.science20.com/agricultural_realism/why_organic_cant_fulfill_our_food_supply_ideals-154020"Almost any farmer or consumer could agree on the following ideals for our agricultural system:
"Farming in ways that are best for us, best for the environment, and best for providing an adequate food supply."
I believe that these are the goals and ideals of organic customers and organic farmers, and I share them. If organic could deliver on these triple best goals, I would be among its strongest supporters, but I don't believe that it can. The organic rules are based on the assumption that natural is always best. That assumption originated in a pre-scientific era, and it does not hold up to what we have learned over the last century. The "natural" definition is great for marketing purposes, but often not the optimal criterion to guide farming practices.
...
Unfortunately, some of those who market organic products, and some who advocate for organic, continue to make unsupportable claims that organic is best for us and for the environment. Many consumers accept these claims and believe that they are doing the right thing by paying the premium prices for organic items. If we really had a food supply that was only safe and responsible for those able and willing to pay higher prices, that would represent a huge failing of public policy. Fortunately, that is not the case.
..."
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This is a piece that must be read fully, and therefore it is a challenge. It does not make itself easily digestible in bumper sticker responses. Yes, I could be kinder in my description of what happens, far too often, at DU.
However, it is time for DU to get back to its roots, where evidence matters more than hyperbole.
I must try to beseech my fellow DUers on that road.
Take care.
WCLinolVir
(951 posts)Has the same arguments in other articles. Looks like a shill for big agro. Smells like manure. Can't really be bothered to define his terms. He just theorizes in generalities and hopes you will be swayed by his lack of facts. Are you a shill? I have seen you post several times in support of GMO, etc.. if memory serves me.
I especially want to give mention to his concept that organic is defined by negatives, "nots", which makes organic negative somehow. Ooo, who wants unhappy, negative organic? He's not my friend. Talk about propaganda.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)I tried to make it as organic as possible, grown with legacy seeds that probably dated from the '60s or early '70s, using manure for fertilizer and hay for mulch. That garden produced some of the best-tasting produce I have ever eaten.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 17, 2015, 11:40 AM - Edit history (1)
And the value is anecdote is nil.
If I Were a Food Activist
Read more http://www.nurselovesfarmer.com/2014/11/food-activist/
hunter
(38,317 posts)Much so-called "food" here in the U.S.A. is fed to meat and dairy animals or turned into high fructose corn syrup. Nobody is going to starve if those foods become more expensive and less available.
Yes, "organic" food production does require more brains and often more labor to produce, but that doesn't mean in any way that organics couldn't feed the world.
I'm not a GMO absolutist. Some GMO's are totally fucked up environmentally destructive and dangerous corporate crap, some are useful and beneficial innovations.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)something like 40 percent of the corn crop.
hunter
(38,317 posts)Those same fields could be used to raise grass fed beefalo, or gasp, might even be restored to their natural state.
Instead they are toxic monoculture deserts, essentially producing alcohol in a very round-about way from fossil fuels.
We'd be better off synthesizing fuel directly from natural gas.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Interesting that you also failed to note that organic food production takes up more land.
How you going to replace the forests?
Yeah, it goes on and on. Organic is a marketing gimmick, no matter how much BS its purveyors spread.
hunter
(38,317 posts)I don't use them in my house or in my garden.
Farmworkers are especially hard hit. I wouldn't be shocked if there's a relationship between gang violence and exposure to certain pesticides in utero. But try to get funding for those sorts of studies... it's like getting studies for medical marijuana funded. Giant corporations are not going to do it. Expensive prescription pills and farming-products-for-brain-damaged-corporate-stooges are very profitable, people growing some unpatented variety of plant well adapted to their local environment and trading seeds is not.
I may be the most skeptical cynical son of a bitch (hi mom!) you'll ever meet, and I have a thorough background in evolutionary and environmental biology. Sure 95% of marketing is bullshit, but that applies to all marketing, including the marketing for GMOs.
The sheep-like bleats of GMOs Good, Organics BAAAAD! or the equally ridiculous opposite, Organics Good, GMOs BAAAAD! are damaging to rational discussion, and true "red herrings."
Want to know the reason I dislike GMO's? It's pretty much the same reason I loathe any patents on life. Marketing machines and giant corporations destroy diversity. "Heritage" breeds of plants and animals are lost, and with them traits that might have proven very useful someday as earth's climate becomes increasingly unstable.
Equally valuable human community traditions are also lost.
Places like Kansas slowly become wastelands in every sense; culturally, intellectually, and genetically. I'm not singling Kansas out, vast swaths of my home state of California suffer similar plagues of corporate disseminated ignorance.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)BTW, did you know that organic farmers use pesticides?
Did you know that all seed development technologies are patented?
You might want to explore the issue a bit more before you continue to repeat bad anti-GMO BS.
Did you know that GMOs have reduced pesticide use?
No, really.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111629
As for "corporate disseminated ignorance," I can only assume that you refer to the propaganda pushed by companies using "organic" as a marketing tool.
-------------
PS:
A PRINCIPLED CASE AGAINST MANDATORY GMO LABELS
http://fafdl.org/blog/2014/08/16/a-principled-case-against-mandatory-gmo-labels/
WHY YOU SHOULD OPPOSE MANDATORY GMO LABELING
http://www.itsmomsense.com/oppose-mandatory-gmo-labeling/
Why labeling of GMOs is actually bad for people and the environment
http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2012/06/06/why-labeling-of-gmos-is-actually-bad-for-people-and-the-environment/
Why GMO Food Labels Are a Bad Idea
http://www.realclearscience.com/2012/10/09/why_gmo_food_labels_are_a_bad_idea_249411.html
And the Mercury Decides: Say No to GMO Labeling, Even If It Feels Terrible
http://www.portlandmercury.com/BlogtownPDX/archives/2014/10/20/and-the-mercury-decides-say-no-to-gmo-labeling-even-if-it-feels-terrible
Why Mandatory Labeling for GMOs is a Very Bad Idea
http://www.davehitt.com/blog2/why-mandatory-labeling-for-gmos-is-a-very-bad-idea/
Whole Foods' Anti-GMO Swindle
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/15/whole-foods-anti-gmo-swindle.html
The Costs of GMO Labeling
http://thefoodiefarmer.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-costs-of-gmo-labeling.html
BAD IDEAS: GMO LABELS
http://www.thefarmersdaughterusa.com/2013/09/bad-ideas-gmo-labels.html
A Lonely Quest for Facts on Genetically Modified Crops
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/05/us/on-hawaii-a-lonely-quest-for-facts-about-gmos.html?_r=0
GMO Foods: Why We Shouldn't Label (Or Worry About) Genetically Modified Products
http://mic.com/articles/5226/gmo-foods-why-we-shouldn-t-label-or-worry-about-genetically-modified-products
GMO Opponents Are the Climate Skeptics of the Left
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/are_gmo_foods_safe_opponents_are_skewing_the_science_to_scare_people_.html
Labels for GMO Foods Are a Bad Idea
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/labels-for-gmo-foods-are-a-bad-idea/
Antivaccine versus anti-GMO: Different goals, same methods
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/antivaccine-versus-anti-gmo-different-goals-same-methods/
hunter
(38,317 posts)How about you respond, as a human being, to MY issues?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Including the fact that you're willing to utilize the shill gambit instead of actual science.
Lame stuff.
hunter
(38,317 posts)So I guess we're even.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)It is quite apparent that you, sir/madam, have some sort of vested interest in GMOs. I have no such interest, but I do have a vested interest in what I eat. You claim that there are "thousands" of "peer reviewed" papers that "prove" GMOs are "safe", but peer review is worthless when the "peers" themselves have, or have had, a vested interest in what they are supposedly reviewing. That includes "former" employees of Big Ag who conduct "studies" funded by dubious sources, or who are set up as editors of journals and order unfavorable studies to be retracted.
As a very recent paper in Environmental Sciences Europe notes, "Rigorous assessment of GMO safety has been hampered by the lack of funding independent of proprietary interests."
and
"Claims of consensus on the safety of GMOs are not supported by an objective analysis of the refereed literature."
http://www.enveurope.com/content/pdf/s12302-014-0034-1.pdf
And human health is not the only concern about GMOs, as a recent UNCTAD report points out
http://unctad.org/en/publicationslibrary/ditcted2012d3_en.pdf
Last edited Tue Mar 17, 2015, 12:15 PM - Edit history (1)
I won't waste my time
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 17, 2015, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)
If I Were a Food Activist
Read more http://www.nurselovesfarmer.com/2014/11/food-activist/
G_j
(40,367 posts)parroting anyone, but thanks anyway.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)You could use one. Boy, could you ever use one.
-----
PS: Here's your mirror. Plenty of parroting in there:
https://www.google.com/search?q=G_j+gMO&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com&gws_rd=ssl
G_j
(40,367 posts)mixed up with some imaginary person.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 17, 2015, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)
Got it.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Shill_gambit
PS:
If I Were a Food Activist
Read more http://www.nurselovesfarmer.com/2014/11/food-activist/
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Or would saying so be just as much shill gambit nonsense?
I noticed you didn't even attempt to refute any of the points from the article, but then again some people are under the impression that ad hominem fallacies are sufficient. In this case it's not even a good one. It's pretty common for the agricultural industry to consult with expert academics and/or for the industry to fund university research. If you label them all as "shills", there won't be many left.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)Soon they will advertising Marlboro's and Winston's on DU threads, and claiming how healthy they are for children..
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)There is certainly a point to be made about the necessity of feeding a population too large for the planet, but I don't think this guy's making it.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)"Natural" is just as meaningless a marketing term as "organic."
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)But I'm not sure that pointing out this fact is all that helpful. It only goes to show the "organic" label is basically meaningless in terms of nutrition, sustainability, safety, and even "natural", which was kind of the whole point to begin with.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)There are some formidable obstacles to introducing sustainable practices in say South Georgia or the High Texas Plains. And those of us in the sustainable ag movement who don't acknowledge that are not being honest. Not saying solutions can't be developed but in some places, we aren't even close to being able to compete with conventional ag. It is what is is.
Having said that, this guy also doesn't seem to understand a lot about organic agriculture either. This statement just floored me : "For example, drip irrigation systems are very efficient ways to deliver fertilizers but cannot be used for most forms of organic fertilizers."
Not sure where he's getting his facts but just about every sustainable and organic farmer I know uses drip irrigation including myself. And in many areas, these farmers were the pioneers in using these practices. I'd be interested in hearing what fertilizers can't be used in drip injector systems if you are an organic farmer because I haven't heard of any. While I have no hard empirical data on the rate of adoption of NRCS cost shared micro-irrigation systems across the nation, I'd bet these systems were being gobbled up by sustainable farmers at a rate equal to or even surpassing that of conventional farmers
So just as sustainable ag has to face up to some realities so do some folks in the conventional ag world.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And then get back to us.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)conventional and organic farmers across the southeast. Maybe you should get to know some non-conventional ones.What else you got smartass?
Your point about taking a balanced view on this issue becomes kind of moot when you treat everyone who may not agree with you in a condescending manner. I responded with an open mind to your post and all you can do is give me snark. This guy is totally fucking wrong on the drip irrigation issue. Completely....Seems to me like he has some homework to do.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)That might help.
Keep trying.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Any that aren't water soluble. Cow shit would be one of many examples.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)but cow shit isn't made to be used in a drip system. But there are plenty of organic fertilizers that are and if this guy knew what he was talking about he would know that.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)This is what he did say that you quoted:
"most forms" would imply that some can be, no?
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)For example, drip irrigation systems are very efficient ways to deliver fertilizers but cannot be used for most forms of conventional fertilizers
There are a hell of a lot of conventional fertilizers that come in a non-soluble form. For example, here in the south the application of chicken litter from poultry houses on fields is a common form applying nutrients. I work with some large conventional farmers here who don't have any drip systems at all. Actually the larger farms tend more to overhead spraying and pivot systems which makes sense given the acreage they cover.
There are a wide range of both conventional and organic fertilizers made for drip systems. Is he saying that there are more conventional solutions and that these solutions are better? He just picked an odd hook on which to hang his hat.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Organic farming currently uses mostly peat, animal waste, and composted plant waste as fertilizer. None of these lend themselves to water solubility very well. So if one is to assume organic production is multiplied to fulfill worldwide requirements, would it be practical to convert organic fertilizer to a water soluble form? The author suggests it is not, or at least not as practical as it would be under conventional agriculture. Whether that opinion is right or wrong is certainly debatable.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)Lots of organic farmers I know including myself use a wide range of water soluble fertilizers including fish emulsions and compost teas of varying recipes. Actually both organic and conventional farmers use a mix of fertilizers both soluble and non-soluble. The non-soluble stuff goes in to promote soil health and long term fertility. Fertilizing through the drip system is sorta akin to taking vitamins. The overwhelming majority of farmers that I know, both conventional and sustainable use drip as a supplemental nutritional additive.
We have thousand acre commodity crop farms down here that are producing massive amounts of food and guess what? The large majority of them ain't using drip irrigation
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)But as far as sustainability goes, it's a very important, if not essential tool.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)There are some issues with drip irrigation, it is by no means a panacea. Most larger scale farmers, no matter what the growing practices, generally lay drip under plastic mulch, usually Black. It does make for an incredibly efficient growing system. But guess what? They pull it up after the growing system. Recycling solutions are just starting to appear but I believe a lot of this stuff may be ending up in a landfill. There's nothing sustainable about that and those of us who are serious about sustainability are aware of that and trying to find solutions. I only use organic mulches but my place is small and as such this is a viable solution for me.
I do a lot of work with small farmers and one thing I'm starting to see is that farmers on both sides of the aisle are loosening up from taking these highly entrenched positions and trying to learn from each other. The single most important common bond that small scale farmers have, no matter what their growing practices, is their economic viability. If you own a farm between 5 and 900 acres, it is very tough to make a living. When I speak to farmers at conferences, the one thing I immediately ask them is are they making money and are they making enough.
You'd be amazed that once the focus turns to this how farmers bring up and discuss subjects that can contribute to ideas about realistic solutions to our food problems without retreating in warring camps
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)...and it's one that extends beyond any consideration for organic or conventional.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Possible conflict of interest.
Buyer beware.
http://www.drstevesavage.com/contact-us/
Steve Savage has been working in the field of agricultural technology for over 35 years.
Steve has a B.S. in Biology from Stanford University and a PhD in Plant Pathology from UC Davis. He has worked in academia at Colorado State University, been a part of large-scale chemical company, DuPont, and worked at start-up, bio-control company, Mycogen.
Since 1996, Dr. Savage has been an independent consultant continuing to work with a variety of technology or investment clients in the areas of plant genetics, crop protection chemicals, biocontrol, biotechnology, biofuels and sustainability. Since 2009, he has written over 250 blog posts and given dozens of talks for technical and non-technical audiences.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)How unusual.
As has already been noted, the shill gambit is BS.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)it's a chemical company that does some ag work because there are checmicals used in agriculture, but it's very much a chemical company.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)You play the shill gambit, and you ridiculous mantras that have one purpose: To fear monger without justification. It's ugly, and unethical, and DU is apparently falling for the scam.
http://www.nurselovesfarmer.com/2014/11/food-activist/
"...
If I were a food activist, I could share statistics and studies without providing accurate sources (or any at all!).
If I were a food activist, I could demand honesty and transparency and not give the same in return.
If I were a food activist, I could not care about a farmers right to choose how they farm and petition to take away their choices.
If I were a food activist, I could act like an expert but have no actual experience or knowledge in agriculture, nutrition or biotechnology.
..."
I know you are passionate about this kind of thing but it isn't propaganda to correctly state that DuPont is a chemical company.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It's rather frightening for those who actually care about the planet.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)but to me, calling DuPont an "ag company" is propaganda.
I'm a fan of your vaccine posts so I'm not after you, I was just struck by that.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And it makes the reality of the propaganda you have pushed rather obvious.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)and since his job is for DuPont ag, it's obvious he wouldn't be a fan of organics.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)You might want to look into that before you make any more claims.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)I believe the thread proves it.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It shows that the respondent has no argument worth the time of day.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)spending decades working for companies like Dupont.
He's not a disinterested scientist, but someone whose livelihood is connected to pushing products.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Which means that your posts here have no valid purpose.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Have you noticed how this works for you?
(You might want to look at many of the sources you've used lately, and let me know if you think they're all shill free.)
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)but it doesn't have to be anyone else's.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 18, 2015, 03:54 PM - Edit history (1)
Thank you for the confession.
Now, why do you utilize Benbrook, who worked for 12 years for an organic lobbying outfit, and taken money from organic companies?
Hmm.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)The only ones who aren't being objective are the ones who disagree with him.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)The anti-GMO crowd dismisses ALL science because it thinks it can tie every bit of it to something untoward.
Yet, it also has no problem pushing sources from advocacy groups that take donations from "organic" and "non-GMO" companies.
Have you noticed that the science crowd doesn't waste its time on pointing out that reality? It just brings the science of the matter to the table?
Really? You haven't?
Then, pay attention.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Or does that standard only work one way?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)in the private sector, is not being accurate.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Does that mean he stopped being an academic?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)if that's what you're referring to. He wasn't an academic when he was a bureaucrat in the patent department in Germany.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)In other words, an honorary fellowship.
Your personal criteria (which I don't think it shared by many), was someone who works in the private sector can't be an academic. I'm pretty sure that excludes a shitload of people widely regarded as academics along with most dictionary definitions.
n.
1. A faculty member or scholar at an institution of higher learning, such as a university.
2. One who has an academic viewpoint or a scholarly background.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/academic
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)...is free to criticize the private sector, that to anybody, other than you and the OP, it is obvious they figure greatly in any discussion of food production.
A "scientist" working in the private sector ISN'T free to criticize his or her boss.
Anybody even remotely aware of the years of failure, the massive efforts to obfuscate and the methods of public manipulation would know the difference between the science of the government and the opportunity of the 'academic' to look closer at the relationship of the private sector to the public responsibility of producing food.
The science would probably favour quantity over QUALITY that's why they pretend that we need GMO's to survive. Inexplicably, however, in the past 20 or so years Americans have become more interested in quality, as if the 60's generation is finally growing up. The old model of trusting chemistry to get you thru the day just sounds stupid nowadays.
.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Someone who works for a university and does research is in one form or another beholden to whoever is paying for that research. So while it may be true that someone in such a situation is "free" to criticize, they and their university certainly aren't "free" from the ramifications which may result from such criticism.
A "scientist" who is his own boss (as is the case here) is just as free to criticize as someone working at a university. Neither works as an employee of a private entity and is subject to direct supervision.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Currently the world produces more food than it requires... About 3000 calories per person, per day.
A good chunk of that is waste. About 215 meals per person go to waste each year in the US.
BronxBoy
(2,286 posts)Unfortunately the discussion about agricultural practices mirrors a lot of what we see in energy discussions. It too often becomes an issue of either or with no room in between and to the exclusion of other factors.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)However, it makes no sense to ignore all options to help keep people from starving.
The anti-GMO movement loves to pull that one out as if it is going to magically decrease food insecurity. Interestingly, no one in that movement is doing anything to change that.
Glassunion
(10,201 posts)Any candidate who would take us to war. War and regional instability is the number 1 cause of distribution issues.
I have no issue with GMO. I do have an issue with the environmental impact of agriculture (both conventional and organic) expanding at ever exponential rates, yet we are not feeding about 15% of our population.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)And GMO is no miracle worker. It's just a tool. But, IMO, it makes no sense for some to demonize a tool that could help find ways to feed people, especially where it's more difficult to grow food, and when we are dealing climate change. Any tool that could limit environmental damage over time should be utilized. Each product must be assessed individually.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Can't have the best of everything.
The human population is as large as it is because of the excess energy we found. It's going to take some of that excess energy to make enough food for us, and everything that supports us. If we manage to do it, we'll have problems. If we don't manage to do it, we'll have problems. That's the beauty of a finite planet where we can't have the best of everything. We have to make choices, and short term self interest always wins out. Otherwise, you die, and that's really what the whole human experiment has been about. To see if we can stop death.
We can't, but we sure do work ourselves into a tizzy trying.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Just look at history.
Genetically modifying the plants is just the next step. It's what humans have been doing for however long, just in a more direct way. People complain about privatization, but we've already done that. That's what agriculture is. It's concentrating resources into fewer hands.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)You mean the era before "we'll do whatever we want because we can"? Science itself has no scruples, it's a solution, a means to an end. Sure, much science is done in an ethical framwork, but profit will always trump ethics in corporate science. Which brings me to a question about your reflexive trust in the value of anything produced by scientific means. If scientific advances provided a way to perfect humans: make us all equally beautiful, intelligent, healthy... generic, would you support it? How about trans-species hybrids, or super soldiers, or modifications for efficient factory workers?...
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It's used by fallible people, so it can be use badly.
However, pretending that there wasn't a pre-scientific era, and that science cannot improve upon that is just bizarre.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)"Improvement" is in the eye of the beholder.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Are you going to defend homeopathy, bloodletting, etc... If so, are you saying we should not eat food that has been changed by purposeful human activity?
Really?
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)You admit science is a tool. It's simply a method, and what it produces is not intrinsically good or bad. It creates penicillin and crystal meth. Using "anti-science" as a blanket pejorative is silly because it indicates anything produced by science is good. A notion more akin to faith than science.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)The fact that you fail to understand that you're pushing faith instead of using the tool is astounding.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 18, 2015, 04:02 PM - Edit history (1)
I am simply unsure of the safety of ingesting these products. IMO there's not enough longterm data to conclusively determine if there are or aren't health risks. If I choose for the time being to avoid them, it's prudence, not faith. You, on the other hand, are 100% certain that the current consensus is immutable and beyond challenge. Which of our positions sounds more like "faith"?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)That is the reality of your stance.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Sometimes over long periods of time. Excluding that possibility is the reality of your stance.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)That doesn't mean it makes sense to ignore a ludicrously strong consensus. And that is what you're doing here.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)To say that's an attitude taken by the scientific community is utterly outrageous. It takes the work of countless thousands throughout history who have worked to improve the human condition and slanders them by conflating them with their contemporary small number of Dr. Frankensteins.
What you're talking about is eugenics, and the scientific community knows that. With the exception of utterly vile racists, that is absolutely nobody's goal.
If you're referring to advances that improve the human condition, like gene therapy to treat inheritable conditions or voluntary modifications to improve strength, endurance, etc., then no, I would have no significant objections.
Behold the abomination of science that is...
...the mule, offspring of a male donkey and female horse. Hybrids are not a modern phenomenon.
If you're talking about human-animal hybrids, then no, that's just gross.
You're going to have to elaborate on that, because that's very vague. What sort of modifications, genetic, medical, technological?
hunter
(38,317 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)That's a repulsive practice. Any sort of modifications should only be made with the consent of the person receiving them, which rules out engineering from birth.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Are humans the only inviolate organisms, and if so, why? If we can muck around with everything else, what makes us off limits?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)There's just nothing to be gained by crossing humans with other species. The point of hybridization is to cross useful traits from different species into one animal, and with tools humans can already do just about anything any other animal can do.
Swim underwater for prolonged periods? Scuba gear. Fly? Aircraft. Sounds below our normal range of hearing? Software.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)of assuming all scientists are ethical or practical. Someday in the future you may be forced to draw a line, and perhaps be called "anti-science".
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Deploying anti-science tactics like invoking the appeal to nature and cherrypicking data is what gets people called anti-science.
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)I'm not seeing, in this article, where the "problems" cited actually affect "best for us, best for the environment, best for an adequate food supply."
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Depends on rotating crops and not relying solely on mono-cropping.
http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/organic-farming-can-feed-the-world-if-done-right-scientists-claim-9913651.ht
Organic farming is much more productive than previously thought, according to a new analysis of agricultural studies that challenges the conventional biased view that pesticide-free agriculture cannot feed the world.
The study says that organic yields were only 19.2 per cent lower, on average, than those from conventional crops and that this gap could be reduced to just eight per cent if the pesticide-free crops were rotated more frequently.
Furthermore, in some crops - especially leguminous plants such as beans, peas and lentils - there were no significant differences in yields, the researchers from the University of California, Berkeley found.
In terms of comparing productivity among the two techniques, this paper sets the record straight on the comparison between organic and conventional agriculture, said Claire Kremen, professor of environmental science, policy and management at Berkeley.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Thus, that article ignores the reality that organic cannot catch up.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0111629
And then there's the reality of organic pesticides:
http://geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/03/16/beyond-the-romance-of-organics-6-ignored-sustainable-farming-practices-that-organic-proponents-should-embrace/
mmonk
(52,589 posts)the bread basket for much of the world.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)And yes, population growth is a primary problem and scarcity becomes a major concern. Not to mention changing climate as well as demographics. But these are bigger than agriculture itself.