That's never going to happen.

That's not going to happen either.

Also never gonna happen

It has a name and everything. And yes, there are a lot of people in positions of political power who believe that Israel has to exist so it can be destroyed so it can hasten the Second Coming. You could say they see themselves as immanentising the eschaton.

Last edited Mon Mar 23, 2015, 05:56 PM - Edit history (1)

for the Dominionists.

I'll seek help.

Burning an effigy is an exercise of protest speech, most often by people not in power. Not really analogous to God's ability to destroy a nation that already exists.

And this subthread was about re-building Israel, not just the temple. See Reply 3.

Trust me, I'm not "excited" by this discussion.

I find it makes little sense for the likes of mere me to argue for or against the existence of God. I leave the big issues, like whether God exists, to experts who can't resolve the issue in a matter of five strike]millennia minutes.

Converted to Christianity first, if I remember correctly. I think another third die, and I guess the others get thrown into the pit of Hell or something.

are all over the place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming

Until the early 20th century the Historicist interpretation was dominant among Protestants. Still is with some denominations like Seventh-Day Adventist.

is laughable on its face.

Israel has nukes and no one else in that region does, so it is going to be a very one-sided conflagration.

Of course every attack on Israel since its inception has wound up with the attacker getting his ass handed to him.

They've got enough nukes to blow the entire region up and have it all to themselves and live happily ever after. They don't need anymore assistance in reaching their goal.

and not the most stable government. If they stop being paranoid about India the might look towards Israel if Israel uses their nukes.

in that region, my money is on Pakistan and India.

It is a deterrent. When you consider the way that Israel throws its weight around, all in the name of self defense, it is easy to see why Iran wants to develop nuclear weapons. Israel is quick to bomb Iran and has done so in the past. I don't believe that Iran has bombed Israel.

The western world, all in the name of Oil, helped to overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran and restored the Shah to his throne. This was an extremely short sighted huge mistake and we have now seen the consequences of that action. The US is notorious for playing a short game and not thinking about long term consequences of our actions. A lot of what is going on in the Middle East is the consequences of the Western world's short sightedness and trying to force our wants on the people of the Middle East.

Our behavior in how we treat Iran is doubling down on our tendency to make really bad decisions where the Middle East is concerned. Not every country around the world has to be just like the US nor do we have the right to enforce our will on other countries. If you pulled oil and religion out of that part of the world you would probably see the west treat those countries in a totally different manner.

Rational thought needs to be brought into the mixture of attempts to deal with Iran not saber rattling.

So then what is the big deal about Iran developing nukes in order to establish nuclear deterrence? That is what the US and the USSR (now Russia) have done for decades. Rational dialogue may go a lot further then Netanyahu's temper tantrums and the Western world's do as we say not we do mentality.

http://www.distance.to/Iran/Israel

Iran is much closer to Israel, in fact.

As the crow flies, it's 1100 miles.

They agreed to a deal with Pakistan where they will give them when they ask for it which gives them the benefits a nuke brings but they also get to say they don't have nukes on their soil.

That's supposed to be a secret!!

I am VERY much in favor of this rapture thing.

The entire country de-assholeified in one short hour.

I say... Bring it on!

Regards.

Some branches don't even accept the book of Revelations as canon.

that The Big Book of Primitive Myths has affected and continues to affect so much in this world of ours.

Absolutely pathetic.

Big controversy whether Jesus comes and sweeps the Faithful to their golden homes in Heaven before this horrendous event. Those who believe He will come and take them Home first are called Pre-Trib. Others believe that the faithful will all have their faith literally tested by Fire. Then Jesus will come and take them up if they pass the test and do not bow to The AntiChrist. These folks, the Post-Tribs, ascribe to understandably less preferred circumstances.

Everyone will die during this war except 144,000 Jews (12 Tribes x 12,000 members) who will convert to Christianity and will be saved to begin the world again. Jesus will then set up his Kingdom and rule the World from the Mount of Jerusalem. (Remember this was millenia before the technology was available to literally blow up the entire globe.)

Iran only figures into it as the likely starting point...the gas poured on the smoldering ancient hatreds. Syria is a sideshow, IMO, but Iran is huge in many ways. Also interesting it is the only non-Abrahamic religion in the mix...they are ancient Persians.

All three Abrahamic religions (Jews, Christians, Islam) claim The Mount as their holy place. It is a real Global King of the Hill. The irony in this, to me, is that Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet...small "p"... with Mohammad, obviously, as their Prophet. Even Hinduism recognizes and worships Jesus as a Holy Man. Out of these modern religions, only the Jews do not worship him at all, let alone as their Messiah.

It's complicated, but reading one of the bazillion books about The Rapture or The Second Coming will help somewhat.

Usually with a personal wrinkle tossed in by whoever's telling the story. When the Soviet Union was the Great Satan for the End Timers, there was considerable "scholarship" tying Ezekiel's writings to Moscow. As the players make their entrances and exits from the world stage, various organizations and personages are all fitted for the mantle of the whore of Babylon, the proud horn, the Beast, its mark, and so on and so forth.

There are a couple of points that probably irritate me more than any others about the End Timers. First is the egotism. All of human history, all the sufferings, the triumphs, the tragedies, the ecstasies, happened just to culminate in the end of that history, vindicated by the arrival of those in the know.

The second thing that irritates me about the End Timers is the magical thinking. Writ large, it's the perfect excuse to see all kinds of problems, recognize all kinds of suffering, and refuse to do anything about it because Jesus is coming soon, he'll wave his mighty god wand, and everything will be set to right. The righteous (including, and possibly limited to, you know who) will be rewarded, and the wicked will get what's coming to them. Maybe even at the hands of the True Believers themselves. And it will be glorious.

Writ small, it manifests in all kinds of mean little actions and attitudes: "I'm safe from any real trouble because I have a friend in Jesus. You're suffering because it's God's will, so tough luck. I have no obligation to help you." It's a childish (not child-like) worldview that neatly divides the world in two, and the End Timers are all on the right side of the line.

You'd have to use a chip about a foot square, so you can track 'em via satellite.

...and put a little tattoo on their forehead so the rest of us can see them coming.

Remember this one: "Ronald Wilson Reagan" has three six-letter names in a row.

It is so arrogant and condescending.

And none of them are really "wrong" because there are wildly different ways to interpret that text.

There's one read where the text refers to the Roman world of the early church and the fall of that order. This probably has the most serious scholarly backing.

There's one read where basically the whole text is metaphorical or indecipherable. This was the position of a great deal of church leadership, and the text was nearly left out of early attempts at a canonical bible for this reason. This is also not without merit as the thing is trippy as heck, and is backed up by some scholarship regarding hallucinogens in the environment on Patmos.

The read where the text refers to the literal end of a future world is a fairly modern interpretation and is nearly exclusive to American Protestants and their church plants in the developing world. But within that fairly niche but politically influential worldview, your point is exactly what they're thinking.

That this is what he meant by being "in the spirit".

Revelation isn't prophecy, but a coded pep talk to the early church.

Keep this in mind: The Greek word "apocalypse" doesn't mean what many people think it means. It means "revealing" rather than "disaster". Its authorship is uncertain. It was written to a persecuted Christian audience in coded language about the Romans and their empire. As I recall, it is believed to have been written during Nero's reign. It is really about events going on then, not 2,000 years later. Maybe you will find this helpful.

but they look at me like I've got two heads when I do. I think people want to believe that shit. It makes them think that they're living in the most significant time of all history.

about the Book of Revelatin. She says that because Christians were so persecuted, the book was written in code, and she tells what every symbol is and who the actual people in it were. She uses a pesher system, and scholars who have tried her system say it works...

It's been years since I read it, but she claims the Gospel of John was written by Jesus, after his crucifixtion, and also the book of Revelation.

Also, that Jesus was married, separated and remarried, and accompanied Paul on his travels.

Dr. Theiring does not interpret from Roman books, etc., she transcribes from the original Greek. You must read her "Jesus and the Riddle of the Dead Sea Scrolls." She was quite old, and I don't know if she's still alive. She taught at the University of Austrailia..

And goad them into destroying each other at the same time.

as bible "scholarship," any more than there is such a thing as a legitimate Ph.D. in astrology, phrenology, or palmistry.

There's not shortage of biblical scholars that are non-Christians or atheists so it's not all about the hocus pocus aspects of religion and serious biblical scholars don't concern themselves much with such things. The history of organized religion is commensurate with the history of civilization and for long periods religion and government were essentially one and the same. A clear understanding of biblical history is important to fully understanding the rise of western civilization.

The idea of being able to derive truths from any religious texts--as most people seem to expect--is idiotic in the extreme.

I take your point, but refuse to accept the notion of interpretation of so-called "holy texts" under any circumstances as meriting a special field of modern study.

but was a fictional character.

Pat Robertson, on the other hand...

(I'll leave it to others to fill in the jokes.)

It's sufficient to deal with life day to day instead of contructing a fancy edife of the future. I get tired of trying to talk to the folks who are really into this like sleepwalking. I'm wondering how many are living a dream, not facing reality, which is infinitely more interesting.

The ones that do are Christian fundamentalists such as the Pentacostals and the Church of God.

and the return of Jesus Christ is imminent. A bit like using the "prophecies of Nostradamus" they allude to such vague generalities and attempt to apply them to contemporary situations with breath taking poetic license - they might as well claim the Bible foretells the establishment of the Rotary Club.

Clearly they are the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

You know the Four Horsemen are Dick Cheney, the Koch Brothers, Sam Walton's demon spawn, and whoever the Number Two Man At Al Qaeda is this week.

John Paul George and Ringo are the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse!!!!!!!!

Or a bald guy! Whoah!

There's a fair amount of disagreement on the issue, depending on who you ask.

This might be better in the religious forum.

Bryant

Christians are to be prepared but not predict the end.

And the Dome of the Rock is sitting on the foundation of that Temple which was destroyed..

When I was waiting for the end of the world back in the 70's, I knew all about it that was written, right or wrong, I knew it. Have forgotten so much, but it seems that there's a whole new bunch of people waiting for Jesus to come back - the Evangelical Christians and the ISIS radicalized jihadists... and the Jews are waiting for the Messiah, and they are certain it wasn't Jesus.

What's scary is that I remember how sure I was of everything I read and set about to save everyone's soul as Jesus' return was eminent. Thank goodness, I am totally over it and feel sheepish about admitting it.

(3) - The whole world will turn against Israel, and then Jesus will come back to destroy her enemies. Check out the Old Testament - Daniel's dreams, the 7 years of tribulation.

Have fun.

like the "Left Behind" series of books. Real scholars assume that the Book of Revelations--the least transparent book of the Bible--was referring specifically to current events of the time and the Anti Christ was the Roman Emperor, who claimed himself descended from gods.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/revelation/white.html

The largest pro-Israel lobby isn't AIPAC, it is the Evangelical Christian population.

The modern state of Israel is made up mostly of modern Jews, that is to say - the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. The other 10 tribes are lost to history. So the Christians who think that the Biblical Israel of the OT has been "restored" do not know what they are talking about.