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Time for change

(13,718 posts)
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:13 AM Mar 2015

CODE RED – Computerized Election Theft and the New American Century

I’ll always remember Jonathan Simon as the man who, on Election Night 2004, captured screen shots of the national Presidential exit polls (performed by Mitofsky International and Edison Media Research, under contract to six major news media organizations) for every U.S. state before they mysteriously disappeared forever. Simon’s screenshots introduced the American people to the concept of electronic election theft and “red shift,” occurring when an official vote count (which in this case handed George W. Bush a second term as President) is shifted substantially to the Republican candidate, compared to the exit poll results. In this election the votes were shifted by 5.4% nationally, turning what those polls showed to be a 2.6% Kerry victory into a 2.8% Bush victory in the national popular vote. The vast majority of states also showed a red shift ), including Ohio (many of whose votes were “processed” on remote servers set up by Karl Rove’s “IT guru” Mike Connell in Chattanooga, Tennessee), which was enough to give the Presidency to Bush. This chart, taken from Steven Freeman’s book, “Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen”, shows that red shifts occurred in 10 of the 11 swing states:

State……………Exit poll result……………..Official vote count……..Red shift
NH………………..Kerry by 10.8%...........Kerry by 1.3%............9.5%
OH………………..Kerry by 4.2%.............Bush by 2.5%............6.7%
PA………………..Kerry by 8.7%.............Kerry by 2.2%............6.5%
MN………………..Kerry by 9.0%.............Kerry by 3.5%...........5.5%
FL…………………Bush by 0.1%..............Bush by 5.0%............4.9%
NV………………..Kerry by 1.3%.............Bush by 2.6%............3.9%
NM………………..Kerry by 2.6%.............Bush by 1.1%...........3.7%
CO………………..Bush by 1.8%..............Bush by 5.2%...........3.4%
IA………………….Kerry by 1.3%.............Bush by 0.9%...........2.2%
MI…………………Kerry by 5.0%..............Kerry by 3.4%..........1.6%
WI…………………Kerry by 0.4%.............Kerry by 0.4%...........0.0%

I suspect that few American citizens remember this, or were ever aware of it, because it was hardly covered by our national news media at all (Keith Olbermann being the only significant exception).

But the purpose of CODE RED is not to stir up bad memories of a forgotten past. Rather, it is a plea to the American people to take seriously a continuing and growing threat to our democracy, in the hope that we will demand better.


Why should we believe that electronic election fraud is destroying our democracy?

Much of CODE RED is devoted to explaining why we should take this threat seriously. There are two major reasons:

One is the massive statistical evidence. Simon provides detailed accounts of numerous research studies that show substantial disparities between baselines, such as exit polls and hand counts, and official election results (i.e., red shifts), from 2004 to 2014, which have brought us, little by little, to our current status, which includes a radical Republican House of Representatives, a Republican Senate, a margin of Republican control of Governorships and statehouses not seen since the presidency of Herbert Hoover, and gerrymandered House and state legislative districts throughout the country such that large Democratic margins in the popular vote are now required just to maintain the status quo. These studies include: The 2004 Presidential election that re-elected George W. Bush as President; the 2006 House elections which, though won by the Democratic Party, was so red shifted that what the exit polls predicted to be a Democratic landslide resulted in only modest Democratic gains; red shifting of the 2008 Presidential and Congressional elections, despite the Democratic wins; red shifting of the 2010 Congressional elections (with special emphasis on the strange Republican win of a special Senate election in liberal Massachusetts that prevented a Democratic filibuster-proof Senate), severe enough to bring a radical right Republican House to power that has persisted to this day; red shifting in Wisconsin in 2011 and 2012 that destroyed the attempt to recall a radical right wing governor and state senators, and; massive red-shifting in the 2014 national House, Senate and Governor races, that brought us to our current state of affairs. The statistical evidence is somewhat complicated, but well explained in the book, and buttressed by an extensive question and answer format addressed to those who view claims of electronic election fraud with a skeptical mind.

But even if you find the statistical arguments mind-numbing, too hard to believe, or unconvincing for any reason, there is another, perhaps better reason for taking this issue very seriously: The acknowledged vulnerability of electronic voting to vote manipulation. Worse yet, electronic voting in the United States is conducted by a handful of corporations, with little or no effective oversight, and attempts to inspect the machines and software that count our votes have been almost completely thwarted by legal barriers on the grounds that they are owned by the corporations that conduct the vote counting. And if that isn’t bad enough, those corporations have strong ties to the Republican Party. It seems to me that a nation that allows private corporations to count votes outside of public scrutiny can hardly be called a democracy. But apparently most Americans have been led to believe that the possibility of election theft through the manipulation of electronically cast votes is so remote that it is not worth thinking about.

Consider that in recent years right wing forces have contrived a great variety of ways to gain unfair advantage in our elections. They have passed myriad voter ID laws and other measures to prevent Democrats from voting. Judicial decisions have allowed almost unlimited amounts of money to pour into our elections, absent requirements that the donors identify themselves. [link: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/opinion/sunday/the-great-gerrymander-of-2012.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0|Congressional districts throughout the country have been gerrymandered] Myriad states have been so gerrymandered that huge Democratic majorities in the popular vote are needed just to gain equal representation in our House of Representatives. And a great variety of dirty tricks have been used, such as sending letters to constituents that tell voters to vote on the wrong day. All of these ploys have received some national media attention. Why has the threat of electronic election manipulation, which has more potential to steal elections than any of those other means, not even been discussed by our national news media, let alone been presented to us as a major and continuing threat to our democracy?


Who should NOT read Code Red

There are some people who should not read Code Red. That includes anyone whose mind is made up that:
- Wealthy and powerful people never ruthlessly pursue their goals at the expense of their fellow citizens
- It’s OK for our votes to be counted in secret because we can always trust those who count our votes
- In the United States, election theft is rare because of the exceptional security we have in place to prevent it
- In the United States, election theft is rare because of the American character or our Constitution
- Anybody who doesn’t agree with all of the above is either un-American or a whacky “conspiracy theorist”

If you are convinced of any of the above statements you will not benefit from reading Dr. Simon’s book because you won’t believe or even take seriously anything that he tells us. But if you have some doubt about the above statements, reading this book will give you an understanding of the vulnerabilities of today’s U.S. election system, and how those vulnerabilities are corrupting our democracy, that you didn’t previously have and that few Americans do have. If you’ve wondered why the U.S. government has become so unresponsive to the needs of ordinary American citizens, you will likely gain a much better understanding of this.


How can a democracy elect and re-elect a national legislature of whom only 10-20% of citizens approve?

Lastly, consider this. Wouldn’t you think that a nation governed by democratic principles would be able to elect a national legislature that receives the approval of at least half of its population? Yet, since the coming to power of an increasingly radical right wing Congress in 2010, Congressional approval has hovered consistently below 20%, a situation unprecedented since regular polling of Presidential approval began in 1974. That begs an explanation, which you will find well provided in CODE RED, where you will also find a sober and compelling discussion of a way forward, how to dig ourselves and our country out of this unholy mess.

123 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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CODE RED – Computerized Election Theft and the New American Century (Original Post) Time for change Mar 2015 OP
long time no see - k/r nashville_brook Mar 2015 #1
The time to change electronic voting is AFTER Democrats win big. stillwaiting Mar 2015 #2
The problem with that course Time for change Mar 2015 #11
Electronic voting is not secure...look at ANY year's computer hacking headlines for the evidence. Fred Sanders Mar 2015 #3
Finally An Exceptional Article billhicks76 Mar 2015 #84
Early returns from Ohio's Sec. of State Web Site Botany Mar 2015 #4
I haven't seen this before. brer cat Mar 2015 #8
I've often wondered about the Homeland Security shutdown of the count... KansDem Mar 2015 #10
You're paranoid as hell aren't you? Jackpine Radical Mar 2015 #105
You got that right! KansDem Mar 2015 #119
Lucas county partial results above make the switch from Kerry to Green candidate Cobb obvious. hedda_foil Mar 2015 #106
What I saw and what I heard in Ohio 2004 still haunts me Botany Mar 2015 #107
What still haunts me is the fact that the voting machine vendor reprogrammed all the machines hedda_foil Mar 2015 #123
Kickin' Faux pas Mar 2015 #5
Good to see you, Time for change. brer cat Mar 2015 #6
Thank you very much Time for change Mar 2015 #14
Want to know who I believe? -- the people involved brooklynite Mar 2015 #7
Except that bradblog.com has been covering electronic vote theft. Electronic, the NEW way valerief Mar 2015 #16
The issue of electronic vote manipulation has been made into a pariah by our corporate news media Time for change Mar 2015 #18
Yes they do... brooklynite Mar 2015 #21
how is documented by this az group questionseverything Mar 2015 #40
crap on a stick software questionseverything Mar 2015 #44
or it could be nobody is watching questionseverything Mar 2015 #45
So, you're saying not one of affected candidates cared... brooklynite Mar 2015 #46
here is one that did questionseverything Mar 2015 #50
Thank you for confirming my point brooklynite Mar 2015 #52
there was plenty of evidence questionseverything Mar 2015 #57
You're getting warmer... dreamnightwind Mar 2015 #60
Waukesha County, WI - Votes stored in MS Access Database paparush Mar 2015 #22
The votes were not "stored" in Access. They were tallied there. PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #67
i wasnt there but i know people who were questionseverything Mar 2015 #74
There were lots of problems with poorly sealed bags. We've changed bags since then because of that. PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #75
read the article i posted questionseverything Mar 2015 #76
I was there and read it 4 years ago. The melodrama and silly rumors were bad enough in real time. PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #78
these arnt rumors questionseverything Mar 2015 #83
I can confirm this portion: PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #86
did kathy n stand up and admit fraud ...no questionseverything Mar 2015 #90
If there were evidence of fraud, Kloppenburg and our team would have found it PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #91
not to mention the gab's reporting of recount results questionseverything Mar 2015 #85
brunner said there were critical security failures questionseverything Mar 2015 #53
Perhaps so...point to where she says those security failures were utilized. brooklynite Mar 2015 #54
look at botony's post # 4 questionseverything Mar 2015 #58
Thanks for this post. PeaceNikki Mar 2015 #73
Kerry has came to believe it was stolen in 2005. pa28 Mar 2015 #92
You get a receipt sulphurdunn Mar 2015 #100
I'm not arguing that there aren't potential issues, I'm arguing no evidence of intentional fraud brooklynite Mar 2015 #102
"Code Red" is a book ? article ? blog ? link ? eppur_se_muova Mar 2015 #9
It's a book Time for change Mar 2015 #15
I'm guessing that it's this: drm604 Mar 2015 #17
Thanks ! Buy paperback and Kindle links there. nt eppur_se_muova Mar 2015 #19
It's about time HoosierCowboy Mar 2015 #12
I'm convinced. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #13
Remember what happened to Mike Connell... Gumboot Mar 2015 #20
Michael Connell Time for change Mar 2015 #68
There is some major cognitive dissonance on this issue RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #23
It was my pleasure Time for change Mar 2015 #69
Don't forget aspirant Mar 2015 #24
K&R nt Andy823 Mar 2015 #25
One doesn't need an advanced degree in mathematics NoMoreRepugs Mar 2015 #26
Thank you. I've been talking about this since 2004/5 when the Ohio data came out. CaptainTruth Mar 2015 #27
I still have a copy of this book on my shelf from back then... RufusTFirefly Mar 2015 #29
I remember that! Good for you. CaptainTruth Mar 2015 #39
What are you doing in your State to improve the voting systems? Anything? Nothing? Bluenorthwest Mar 2015 #28
Funny how the "help America vote act" fasttense Mar 2015 #31
you have optical scanners which can be munipulated questionseverything Mar 2015 #64
So Good To Hear From You 1norcal Mar 2015 #30
Thank you so much! Time for change Mar 2015 #70
Put simply: Red Shift = % of Vote Theft Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #32
until we return to verifiable voting via hand counted paper ballots, we have no democracy and no Kip Humphrey Mar 2015 #33
Okay...you've got your hand-counted paper ballots. How do you aggregate the votes? brooklynite Mar 2015 #56
each election board is responsible for it's own totals questionseverything Mar 2015 #61
All paper ballots are Hand Counted at the voting stations... bvar22 Mar 2015 #82
Thanks - Code Red has some very good suggestions on the subject Time for change Mar 2015 #71
I heard you were comin' back! OnyxCollie Mar 2015 #34
K & R mountain grammy Mar 2015 #35
I got this from someone who does work for DARPA DFW Mar 2015 #36
And then there's this... Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #37
Same old BS, you have no idea of the election system in the US. There are over 50,000 voting CK_John Mar 2015 #38
The input data (votes) originates in a variety of formats, CaptainTruth Mar 2015 #41
yes the spreadsheet is the ultimate blackbox questionseverything Mar 2015 #47
Why do scanners and machines have proprietery code we citizens aren't allowed to inspect? Omaha Steve Mar 2015 #42
That's why many tactics are utilized, silly human. When the known issues are not tackled, and mother earth Mar 2015 #43
Sorry. Sounds like you're the one with no clue. Arugula Latte Mar 2015 #62
What if there are many individual voting precincts that have veribiable voting? Time for change Mar 2015 #72
two words olddots Mar 2015 #48
Check it out ~ we even had an Electronic Voting Links Library here at DU years ago: Zorra Mar 2015 #49
Ah...so now, DEMOCRATS are rigging voting machines? brooklynite Mar 2015 #55
Did I say, or, imply, anything about Democrats in my post? Zorra Mar 2015 #63
The DU right wing will do its best to convince you that vote manipulation..." brooklynite Mar 2015 #65
No matter which of the only two parties we can vote for that has Zorra Mar 2015 #77
What's telling is... RobertEarl Mar 2015 #51
When it's an oligarchy. ancianita Mar 2015 #59
K & R, this needs much more attention dreamnightwind Mar 2015 #66
Remembering the 2004 Swing State Red Shift november3rd Mar 2015 #79
Great to see you posting again. This is probably the most important issue before us today. rhett o rick Mar 2015 #80
Thanks Time for change Mar 2015 #93
One problem I've always had with these arguments. Savannahmann Mar 2015 #81
These exit polls were taken and analyzed scientifically. Time for change Mar 2015 #94
Ok. But..... Savannahmann Mar 2015 #96
I don't understand your problem with a statistical sample Time for change Mar 2015 #97
I don't have the statistics but I believe that exit polling has been very accurate in rhett o rick Mar 2015 #101
It is utterly naive... JackHughes Mar 2015 #87
...and yet they gave up power in 2006 and 2008 brooklynite Mar 2015 #88
Not in the states... JackHughes Mar 2015 #89
2006 we took back the House....and pick up 5 Governorships and 6 senate seats brooklynite Mar 2015 #98
If Dems show up in numbers, there's no way they can win. They're not showing up. YOHABLO Mar 2015 #95
Isn't that blaming the voters, instead of correcting the problem? 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #116
Dems show up for exit polls, but not as much in official vote counts Time for change Mar 2015 #121
It's Pretty Obvious But Totally Ignored ( In America) For Years colsohlibgal Mar 2015 #99
K&R DeSwiss Mar 2015 #103
Thank you. SusanCalvin Mar 2015 #104
"Trust us." blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #108
+1000 blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #109
14th Characteristic of Fascism (http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm): blkmusclmachine Mar 2015 #110
The denial of this fundamental problem is damning us. dougolat Mar 2015 #111
k & r & thank you! wildbilln864 Mar 2015 #112
Very important stuff. Mr_Jefferson_24 Mar 2015 #113
Watch for Republicans gaining and passing from behind when the later returns come in. GoneFishin Mar 2015 #114
Some Democrats were ALL over this, right after the 2004 election. 99th_Monkey Mar 2015 #115
David Dill: "It is not enough that elections be accurate-- eridani Mar 2015 #117
Okay...for the sake of discussion, let's stipulate that there's digital tampering of elections... brooklynite Mar 2015 #118
you are not correct questionseverything Mar 2015 #120
First thing Time for change Mar 2015 #122

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
2. The time to change electronic voting is AFTER Democrats win big.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:26 AM
Mar 2015

We will have to stand with many right-wing Republicans to change our system. Many of them think Obama stole the election so we can get them onboard.

United we can change the system.

They will NEVER stand with us after big Republican wins. EVER.

We have to be better than them and demand change after Democrats win. Of course, we know better which direction election anomalies always seem to favor.

Big movement needed. Huge.

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
11. The problem with that course
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:20 AM
Mar 2015

is that if we wait for the Democrats to win big before putting our efforts into reforming the system to make our elections fair and secure, it may never happen. Our elections should be secure and fair regardless of who wins.

It is true that the Republicans will never stand with us as long as they are winning and do not feel great pressure from American people to do so. But that is not a good reason for the American people not to demand it and work towards improving our woefully insecure election system.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
3. Electronic voting is not secure...look at ANY year's computer hacking headlines for the evidence.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:40 AM
Mar 2015

Computers are no more secure from hacking than they were a decade ago.

Imagine if a foreign government, such as Alabama, secretly, just for a nanosecond, hacked into election computers and fiddled a bit, then left without a trace?

If it CAN be imagined, it can be done.

No expense should be spared in the defence of the sanctity and security of the Vote, it should be part of Homeland Security.

Paper, please.

Botany

(70,551 posts)
4. Early returns from Ohio's Sec. of State Web Site
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:40 AM
Mar 2015


Hamilton County aka Cincinnati using a third party candidate vote total as a
place holder to keep stolen votes @



Lucas County aka Toledo again using a third party candidate's vote total as
a place to switch Kerry votes to so they can be "worked on" later


KansDem

(28,498 posts)
10. I've often wondered about the Homeland Security shutdown of the count...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:16 AM
Mar 2015
LEBANON - Citing concerns about potential terrorism, Warren County officials locked down the county administration building on election night and blocked anyone from observing the vote count as the nation awaited Ohio's returns.

County officials say they took the action Tuesday night for homeland security, although state elections officials said they didn't know of any other Ohio county that closed off its elections board. Media organizations protested, saying it violated the law and the public's rights. The Warren results, delayed for hours because of long lines that extended voting past the scheduled close of polls, were part of the last tallies that helped clinch President Bush's re-election.

"The media should have been permitted into the area where there was counting," Enquirer attorney Jack Greiner said. "This is a process that should be done in complete transparency and it wasn't."

Warren County Emergency Services Director Frank Young said he had recommended increased security based on information received from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation in recent weeks.

Commissioners made the security decisions in a closed-door meeting last week, but didn't publicize the restrictions that were made until after polls closed.

"If we were going to make a judgment, we wanted to err on the side of caution," Commissioner Pat South said Thursday. "... Hindsight is 20-20. There was never any intent to exclude the press.

"We were trying to protect security."

--more--
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/11/05/loc_warrenvote05.html


Except Homeland Security didn't issue any warnings in Ohio.

But now, thanks to Jesse Ventura and Greg Palast, we know the whole 9/11 tragedy was to get Bush into Iraq to keep Saddam from selling Iraq oil on the world market.

Saudi Royal Family and the Bushes: friends and business partners.

hedda_foil

(16,375 posts)
106. Lucas county partial results above make the switch from Kerry to Green candidate Cobb obvious.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:21 PM
Mar 2015

Kerry (0 votes) to Cobb (4,685 votes - 70.86% of the vote total to that point) and Bush (with just 1,917).

I vividly remember the Ohio red shift, from the electronic voting forum here, CAV's posts and Freeman and Simon's analyses. And I spent the next 3-1/2 years of my life working more than full time on the issue of electronic voting,but I missed Lucas county's padding Cobb's tally with Kerry's votes from early on. Thanks, Botany.

Botany

(70,551 posts)
107. What I saw and what I heard in Ohio 2004 still haunts me
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:40 PM
Mar 2015

@ 5 or 6 PM on election day 2004 Karen Hughes went and told W he
had lost and W just laughed .... the fix was in big time.

BTW Bernadette Noe wife of convicted GOP $ scammer Tom Noe of
Lucas County let republican workers have access to the voter lists
for 1 week in in late summer 2004. In one case a couple who first
voted for JFK in 1960 and still lived in the same house went to vote in
the 2004 election but couldn't because they were no longer on the voter
rolls.

What really pisses me off is that the main stream media all know these
stories and will not report them.

hedda_foil

(16,375 posts)
123. What still haunts me is the fact that the voting machine vendor reprogrammed all the machines
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:00 PM
Mar 2015

Between the election and the recount, this tiny family owned and operated outfit went from county to county fiddling with the machines. I believe all Ohio counties used this company. And not just the DREs, but the paper ballots were tides up before the recount, so the recount for which we fought so hard was a sham.

brer cat

(24,588 posts)
6. Good to see you, Time for change.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:55 AM
Mar 2015

The ability to manipulate voting machines is so corrupting that I often wonder if there is any way out. I look forward to obtaining a copy of Code Red, and hope that it will provide both direction and methods for getting us out of this "unholy mess."

Please don't be a stranger...your tireless efforts to document election theft and encourage discussion here have resulted in some of the most insightful and helpful threads on DU. I fear that it is way too easy for this to become yesterday's news, yet it is still among us with devastating results.

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
14. Thank you very much
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:29 AM
Mar 2015

I sure do hope that this issue picks up popularity, and the American people demand better and are willing to exert efforts in that direction.

I also wrote a book about this a couple of years ago. It's called "Democracy Undone". It's different than Simon's book in that it emphasizes electronic vote manipulation as only one of several election issues that are destroying our election system and our democracy, whereas Code Red puts the primary focus almost entirely on electronic vote manipulation, and mentions the other issues as ancillary to it.

But our opinions really do not differ much on the big picture. We both agree that all of these issues are important, and I agree with Dr. Simon that electronic vote manipulation is probably the most important of the bunch.

Good to see you

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
7. Want to know who I believe? -- the people involved
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 09:57 AM
Mar 2015

I have a direct link to many people in Ohio politics, and because this story never goes away, I've actually asked about this. NOT ONE PERSON says it happened. Not the head of the Ohio Democratic Party; not the US Congressman I knew who lost in 2010; not Senator Kerry; not any candidate, campaign manager or Party leader; not any elected Democrat who assumed responsibility for the election process in 2006 and 2008. Not one.

The argument seems to be "compare the 2004 exit polls to the final result". Well, why should we look at exit polls? They can be informative, but they can also be unreliable, because they're self-selecting. Perhaps Republicans didn't participate as much after being told not to trust the "mainstream media".

The second argument tends to be: "look at this story where someone voted for 'candidate A' and 'candidate B' showed up instead". Well, if you've convinced yourself that the Republicans have the ability to rig the outcome, don't you think they would have been smart enough to do it in the back ground and not alert the voter? Electronic voting machines are like ATMs (which, amazingly enough, everyone seems to trust), and occasionally their displays become miscalibrated, so the touch area for B is partly within the visual display for A. And given the type of people tasked with managing voting equipment, it's not surprising that they're not all working perfectly on Election Day.

More importantly, think about the implications of believing this story. You need a massive conspiracy of political people to develop the scheme and decide who gets the stolen votes. You need business people to build the equipment and financiers to pay for it while hiding the money. You need engineers and programmers. And you need to keep every one of those thousands of people quiet for years.

You also need to explain why this brilliant system worked in 2004; failed in 2006 and 2008; worked in 2010; failed in 2012 and worked in 2014.

Bottom line: do Republicans steal votes? Of course they do -- the old fashioned way. They make it difficult to register; they make it difficult to vote; and they gin up wedge issue referenda to bring their angry voters to the polls.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
16. Except that bradblog.com has been covering electronic vote theft. Electronic, the NEW way
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:32 AM
Mar 2015

to steal votes.

Exit polls USED TO match vote results. With electronic voting, that "magical match" has stopped. Funny how that works.

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
18. The issue of electronic vote manipulation has been made into a pariah by our corporate news media
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:38 AM
Mar 2015

Consequently, most public officials are very hesitant to acknowledge it as a serious problem.

You say that the argument seems to be to compare the 2004 exit polls to the official results. That is only one of several arguments, which I mention in this post -- which you would see if you read past the part about the 2004 Presidential election. Regarding your theories about Republicans not participating in the exit polls, that has been thoroughly studied and found to be highly unlikely.

And you don't need massive numbers of people involved to pull this off. Our electronic voting system is controlled by a handful of corporations. The vast majority of employees need not know anything about this.

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
21. Yes they do...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:47 AM
Mar 2015

...you need programmers to right the code; you need engineers to design the circuits to allow the changes; you need managers to oversee the work.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
44. crap on a stick software
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:23 PM
Mar 2015
http://bradblog.com/?p=9370

this software counts repubs in wealthy areas twice for primarys and three times for general elections

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
45. or it could be nobody is watching
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:30 PM
Mar 2015
http://bradblog.com/?p=7875

Results Drastically Changed

The election numbers have radically changed in Monroe County since the May 18th election. At least as reported on the SoS website, and as confirmed by local officials.

It's not all that unusual for the unofficial numbers to move a bit following election day, as absentee and provisional ballots are counted and added in to the totals, and as precinct numbers are double-checked for accuracy in the post-election canvass. It is, however, unusual, for vote totals to get a great deal smaller rather than larger in the days following the election. And that's what seems to have happened in Monroe County --- radically so.

Somehow, more than a thousand votes disappeared entirely, as the election results in the Dem and GOP Senate primaries have almost entirely changed.

On May 19th, voter turnout was 3,393:

But by May 21st, turnout dropped by 1,234 to just 2,159, or 41.11% --- still one of the highest turnout rates in the state:

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

A total of 1,465 votes seem to have suddenly showed up in the Dem Senate race! And then there are the disappearing votes in the Republican race...

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
46. So, you're saying not one of affected candidates cared...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:34 PM
Mar 2015

...not one was paying attention. Not was chose to complain.

This is my point. Politics isn't an academic exercise, it's a real-world activity. And when not a single political figure claims their outcome was affected, I tend to take that seriously.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
50. here is one that did
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:47 PM
Mar 2015
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7900

The statement points generally to a number of findings being made by the campaign as independent experts have analyzed the results, voting patterns and problems being reported by poll workers and voters on Election Day where the unknown, unemployed candidate Alvin Greene defeated Rawl on the unverifiable ES&S iVotronic touch-screen voting systems, performing 11 points better on those machines than he did in the paper-based absentee results. The oft-failed, easily-manipulated ES&S election results reporting system gave Greene a 59% to 41% "victory" over Rawl.

Greene did no campaigning, had no name recognition, had no campaign website, faces felony obscenity charges and managed, somehow, according to the electronic results, to best Rawl, a four-term state legislator to win the nomination to face incumbent Republican U.S. Sen. Jim DeMint in this November's general election.

//////////////////////

i noticed u skipped over the very well documented az case

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
52. Thank you for confirming my point
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:05 PM
Mar 2015

"The South Carolina Democratic Party Executive Board rejected Judge Vic Rawl's official protest to the results of last week's U.S. Senate primary"

So what they're saying is that, rather than point to any evidence that the voting machines had been rigged to saddle them with a sure loser, the DEMOCRATIC PARTY officials upheld the results.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
57. there was plenty of evidence
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:22 PM
Mar 2015

but you bring up a good point....why are the dem party officials so scared of transparency?

obama knew the only way he could win the nomination was by winning the caucuses ...much harder to rig than an election as everyone present can see the count

he had protection in place for elections too tho...his grass roots movement basically had "counted themselves" so when rove was having his meltdown on tv ,obamas campaign already knew what the results in the unreported counties were...much harder for the flip to occur...and when i say flip i mean a mirror website,with a predetermined outcome

you asked why 2008,2012 presidental elections were not stolen...it seems a large enough turn out can make a flip noticeable and tptb do not seem to want that yet but downballots races were affected,denying the landslide victory

paparush

(7,964 posts)
22. Waukesha County, WI - Votes stored in MS Access Database
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:01 AM
Mar 2015
http://host.madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/state-investigating-vote-irregularities-in-waukesha-county-going-back-years/article_46644a68-6704-11e0-907e-001cc4c03286.html
Questions over vote totals in Waukesha have lingered over the past week after County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus announced she failed to report more than 14,000 votes from the city of Brookfield in initial vote totals.

The new total gave incumbent Supreme Court Justice David Prosser a lead of about 7,000 votes over challenger JoAnne Kloppenburg in the hotly contested state Supreme Court race. Official results in that race have not yet been announced.

Now questions have emerged over Nickolaus' published vote counts from as far back as the fall of 2006, when there were key statewide elections including races for governor and attorney general.


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/waukesha-clerk-announces-votes-for-prosser-i-m-thankful-that-this-error-was-caught-early
Waukesha County Clerk Kathy Nickolaus (R) has announced sharply amended totals for her county in the Supreme Court race from Tuesday night -- saying that she had inadvertently failed to properly import and save data into a Microsoft Access database, omitting the numbers from the city of Brookfield and its over 14,000 votes. And as such, according to Nickolaus's new totals, Justice David Prosser has gained a net 7,582 votes -- overcoming the razor-thin lead of liberal-backed challenger JoAnne Kloppenburg, who had already declared victory on Wednesday.

Tip of the iceberg.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
67. The votes were not "stored" in Access. They were tallied there.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:58 PM
Mar 2015

They were stored in boxes, on paper and recounted. I was there, were you?

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
75. There were lots of problems with poorly sealed bags. We've changed bags since then because of that.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 03:39 PM
Mar 2015

"Bags that are not listed" no idea what you mean.

"More votes than voters"? Nope, we reconciled to the poll books so I don't know that that means.

Who do you know that was at the recount in Waukesha County? I was there nearly every day and got to be quite close with the others there.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
78. I was there and read it 4 years ago. The melodrama and silly rumors were bad enough in real time.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 03:58 PM
Mar 2015

My favorite was a ridiculous rumor that one of the poorly sealed bags from one ward in Delafield had TEN-THOUSAND ballots in it during the recount.

There were about 350 in that bag from Delafield and the total population is ~ 7100.

Those are the "facts" the internet gives you. I'll work with the real facts, not the melodramatic bullshit spread around the internets, TYVM.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
83. these arnt rumors
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:31 PM
Mar 2015

were three bags total. Bags 1 & 2 were fine. The numbers all matched up. When we got to bag 3, we found out that the bag # was NOT RECORDED ON THE INSPECTOR'S statement...! The Republican canvass person said we could assume that the clerk forgot to write the # down on the inspector's statement and we could proceed. Of course, this is a break in the chain of custody!...

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=8507

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
86. I can confirm this portion:
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:50 PM
Mar 2015
Earlier in the week, when we'd asked her about the several incidents of broken chain of custody discovered in ballots bags in other Waukesha municipalities discovered previously in the count, Mulliken expressed frustration with what was being found, but confidence in her "team of folks on the ground":

"In Waukesha," she told us, "the recount is moving slowly, partly because there have been questions and issues about almost every bag of ballots they've opened to recount. We have a great team of folks on the ground and have had an attorney there every day raising objections and making sure the record reflects what is happening and our objections."


Yup, I was part of that "great team on the ground".

There was a LOT of slop. A lot of it. But zero evidence of fraud. None. Zip. Zilch. I *WANTED* there to be. I looked really fucking hard for it. We all did. We wanted to find a smoking gun. But there was none. Fraud to that degree would be very very difficult to pull off without a lot of people involved. And the more people involved, the more likely someone will fuck up and/or talk.

There was *no* evidence of fraud.

This is *MY* fuckin' county and I have been involved in every election since - watching or working the polls.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
90. did kathy n stand up and admit fraud ...no
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 05:21 PM
Mar 2015

your post makes me so sad....many ballot bags not sealed,bags of ballots presented that were not on the sheet,bag after bag with cross outs and new serial numbers, town clerk swearing they have no idea how the bags got into the condition they were presented in...is this what we the people should accept as "chain of custody"? how are all these things when presented together not indication of fraud?

btw about more votes than voters...it happens so often that wisconsin election law has a fix written in...first they throw out the blank ballots, then they check for initials,throw out any of those that are not correct...if there are still more votes than voters they randomly draw out as many as are necessary to balance the vote with the checklist

http://gab.wi.gov/sites/default/files/publication/65/recount_manual_23968.pdf

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
91. If there were evidence of fraud, Kloppenburg and our team would have found it
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 05:25 PM
Mar 2015

and done something.

There wasn't. There was sloppy work by clerks and staff. And we're actively observing and working to stop that.

I had these discussions/arguments on DU years ago. I'm done now. Carry on with your melodrama and I'll carry on working each election.

Good day.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
85. not to mention the gab's reporting of recount results
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:44 PM
Mar 2015

The failures started from the very first day, when numbers were released by the G.A.B. in a spreadsheet that didn't add up at all in some 25 different rows (each one representing a "counting unit," usually made up of several different wards in one municipality in Wisconsin.)

For example, in this April 27 spreadsheet [XLS], row 74, representing the Town of Sumner (Wards 1 & 2) in Barron County, shows 653 votes cast as counted during the "recount," but just 145 votes were reported from that "counting unit" in the original post-election canvas.

Unless 508 votes showed up out of nowhere in those two wards, it's likely there was a mistake in record keeping by the G.A.B. somewhere. There were similar anomalies seen in another 15 or 20 rows that day.

The next day, the G.A.B. explained cryptically on its website:
The updated spreadsheet that was posted late Wednesday was removed from this page early Thursday when we discovered some data entry errors. Some errors occurred in transferring information from clerk e-mails to the spreadsheet, and some were due to typos by clerks. We have been working today to ensure that the data we post is as accurate as possible. Please keep in mind that these are unofficial numbers.

For several days thereafter, results spreadsheets were posted with, instead of 3603 rows (one for each "reporting unit" in the state, plus one header line), just 53 rows, or perhaps a hundred or two hundred.

Of course, this made it nearly impossible for those trying to oversee the "recount" to track the updated numbers and changes in vote totals, since one could not easily compare numbers on one spreadsheet against another. The same rows represented completely different "reporting units" in each sheet.

As we said when we began here, Wisconsin is no Minnesota. During the Minnesota U.S. Senate count, tracking changes each day was a breeze, with clear results postings each and every night. That has decidedly not been the case in Wisconsin.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
53. brunner said there were critical security failures
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:06 PM
Mar 2015
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/12/17/harvey_wasserman_on_new_ohio_voting

AMY GOODMAN: —- and ask you about voting. Ohio’s top election official, Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner, announced on Friday the voting systems that decided the 2004 election in Ohio were rife with “critical security failures.” You and Bob Fitrakis have reported extensively on the 2004 presidential vote in Ohio, your most recent book, What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the 2004 Election. Your response to the report? What did you think was most important in her findings?

HARVEY WASSERMAN: Well, our initial response was “Yippee!” I mean, they finally, after all these years of us banging our — you know, we’re local boys. We live in Ohio, in Columbus. And we saw the election of 2004 stolen right in front of our faces. And we reported it extensively, and everybody laughed at us. And they said, “Oh, this couldn’t happen in America.” And we documented it in How the GOP Stole America’s 2004 Election and Is Rigging 2008. We documented scores of ways that this election was stolen. And we pointed out a myriad flaws that we saw right in our own neighborhoods, of what was done to keep people of color and young people from voting and to rig the vote count.

I mean, the servers for the computation of the Ohio vote count were in the same basement in Chattanooga, Tennessee that houses servers for the Republican National Committee. The programmers who did the stuff for Ken Blackwell, the Republican Secretary of State, were Republicans who did websites for the Bush administration. I mean, it’s amazing.

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
54. Perhaps so...point to where she says those security failures were utilized.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:09 PM
Mar 2015

I'm not saying the machines aren't a problem. I'm saying there's no evidence of actual abuse.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
58. look at botony's post # 4
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:30 PM
Mar 2015

for evidence about ohio 04

and still ignoring the az case which is very documented

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
73. Thanks for this post.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 03:13 PM
Mar 2015

This issue bugs me for some of the same reasons you state. I get frustrated when people cry foul with absolutely no proof. And I find it incredibly suspicious.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
100. You get a receipt
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 07:40 PM
Mar 2015

from an ATM, that's one difference between the ATM and a DRE. The whole problem is easy enough to fix. Just have the machine spit out a receipt that is verified by the voter and placed into a secure box, then count both. If the tallies don't square, you have a problem, most likely with the DRE.

eppur_se_muova

(36,279 posts)
9. "Code Red" is a book ? article ? blog ? link ?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:15 AM
Mar 2015


It would be nice to see the source being cited; I can't tell from the addresses of the links if any is it.

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
15. It's a book
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:31 AM
Mar 2015

But I don't think it's been published yet.

I'll get back with the author and see if he can point us to something.

HoosierCowboy

(561 posts)
12. It's about time
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:21 AM
Mar 2015

That this issue gets itself in the headlines. Election fraud means that democracy is illegitimate, giving sovereign citizens the moral right to ignore the laws that have been passed, and frankly many progressives are adopting the same outlook.


Real Democracy means valid elections, nothing less.

Gumboot

(531 posts)
20. Remember what happened to Mike Connell...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:42 AM
Mar 2015

I guess someone thought he was about to go public. Dead men tell no tales.

Chattanoga also has the fastest internet in the USA, which is kinda useful for this whole electronic vote rigging thing, dontcha think?





Time for change

(13,718 posts)
68. Michael Connell
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 03:00 PM
Mar 2015

The story of Michael Connell's role in this whole mess warrants a book in itself

I've had a few things to say about that subject, one which brings up the strange antics of Karl Rove on Fox News I believe, when he found out that Obama won Ohio in 2012:
:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4712367
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021835756

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
23. There is some major cognitive dissonance on this issue
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:02 AM
Mar 2015

Even in this very thread.

Sometimes I don't know what's scarier. Election theft. Or the extraordinary level of both ignorance and outright denial of the issue.

Thanks for drawing attention to this book.

Good to see you!

aspirant

(3,533 posts)
24. Don't forget
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:10 AM
Mar 2015

about the 7 million strong Crosscheck list now being used by 28 states.

You are guilty until proven innocent.

NoMoreRepugs

(9,449 posts)
26. One doesn't need an advanced degree in mathematics
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:17 AM
Mar 2015

to understand that something is terribly wrong here in the 'bastion of freedom' if exit polling - the standard for election integrity everywhere but here that is incredibly accurate in predicting election results is wholly disregarded in the US because it doesn't line up with the REQUIRED RESULTS

CaptainTruth

(6,599 posts)
27. Thank you. I've been talking about this since 2004/5 when the Ohio data came out.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:17 AM
Mar 2015

I just typed a lengthy reply with more info & my thoughts on a Verified Vote system using a Vote ID (VID) & security key on printed ballots that would be associated with every vote as encrypted metadata & would allow every voter to verify their vote had been properly reported & counted in the final tally. Right now we have nothing, your vote is 100% unverifiable. You have no way of knowing if your vote was changed or simply not counted. We need a better election system than that. And watch Republicans distract with tales of "voter fraud" to keep attention focused on the front end of the process, while they commit vote count fraud on the back end of the process.

I typed my lengthy reply & then I accidentally brushed the "back" button on my smartphone & lost everything I had typed. I can't do it all again, so I'll just include this for anyone who hasn't seen it.

http://harpers.org/archive/2005/08/none-dare-call-it-stolen/

RufusTFirefly

(8,812 posts)
29. I still have a copy of this book on my shelf from back then...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:24 AM
Mar 2015


Many people are ignorant of this issue. Many others are not but are frightened by it.

CaptainTruth

(6,599 posts)
39. I remember that! Good for you.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:53 PM
Mar 2015

Conyers really worked to expose the truth but he got steamrolled.

We need to make this an issue before 2016, so 2016 isn't stolen.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
28. What are you doing in your State to improve the voting systems? Anything? Nothing?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:24 AM
Mar 2015

That's where it has to happen. No voting machines in this State at all. Also we have vastly better access to voting than most States. Make it easy to vote, people vote. Our turnout last midterm was low at 69% while the national average was half that. We elect Democrats and pass progressive legislation.
Year after year we hear about voter suppression and ID laws in other States, long lines, limited polling places and we wonder why other States don't make some changes.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
31. Funny how the "help America vote act"
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:47 AM
Mar 2015

made electronic voting machines legal and established fake federal standards for elections throughout the US, yet even according to the Supreme Court, voting is controlled by the states. I didn't see any RepubliCONS objecting to taking control away from the states BS they always use when the federal government wants to establish standards.

It's just so convenient for RepubliCONS. They pass a federal bill controlling how we vote and introducing a system that is so easily tampered with that morons can rig elections, and do. Yet to get rid of those very faulty voting machines, we the people have to fight it state by state. How convenient for the RepubliCONS.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
64. you have optical scanners which can be munipulated
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:47 PM
Mar 2015

and the aggravate can be manipulated


http://www.wired.com/2008/12/unique-transpar/


Once they’d finished scanning the November ballots, they knew immediately they had a problem because the number of ballots they scanned through the Fujitsu printer didn’t match the number of ballots that had been tabulated by the Premier system.

As I reported earlier, they discovered that the Premier system had dropped a batch of 197 ballots from its tabulation software. The voting company has acknowledged that a problem with its software caused the system to drop the ballots and that the software has contained the error since 2004.

Trachtenberg said the problem they discovered underscored for him that proprietary voting systems and “secret counting” methods aren’t in the best interest of democracy.

1norcal

(55 posts)
30. So Good To Hear From You
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:32 AM
Mar 2015

I joined this site largely because of your thorough reporting. Thank you so much for this and all that you do Timeforchange!

Kip Humphrey

(4,753 posts)
33. until we return to verifiable voting via hand counted paper ballots, we have no democracy and no
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:02 PM
Mar 2015

means to roll back the silent coup.

VERY good to hear from you.

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
56. Okay...you've got your hand-counted paper ballots. How do you aggregate the votes?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:17 PM
Mar 2015

You've got tens of thousands of precincts. Each has a hand-counted tally. How do you add them all up without the use of any computer technology. Are you proposing to bring back parchment and quill pens?

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
61. each election board is responsible for it's own totals
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:41 PM
Mar 2015

each precincts hand counted total must be posted on site and online for transparency along with how many voters participated in that election by precinct

then aggravate the totals on a spreadsheet, if everyone can duplicate the result we have success

then on to county level,repeat state level,repeat

parchment/quills is good joke...as far as i know election integrity activists have no trouble with adding machines

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
82. All paper ballots are Hand Counted at the voting stations...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:30 PM
Mar 2015

...with witnesses from both Parties,
AND uninterrupted live video feed.
Results posted on the voting station door.

There are some things that should NEVER be "privatized" in a Democracy.
Voting machines, vote counting machines, Tabulators, and reporting of votes should be publicly owned and observable by every citizen.

You know, we used to count votes without any computers at all.
Of course, back then, exit polls closely matched the election results.


Exit Polls are the Gold Standard for the fairness of elections in most of the World.

DFW

(54,426 posts)
36. I got this from someone who does work for DARPA
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:17 PM
Mar 2015

"Give me a laptop and a cell phone, and I'll make any electronic voting machine give out any result you wish."

This was in 2003 !!!!

I doubt they have gotten any LESS proficient at their craft in the meantime.

*that "someone" is my brother

CK_John

(10,005 posts)
38. Same old BS, you have no idea of the election system in the US. There are over 50,000 voting
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 12:43 PM
Mar 2015

districts in this country some have the old pull levers, punch cards, and mostly optical scan, and a handful of touch screens.

Also each of these ballots are total different. You could fix maybe 1 or 2 precincts but thats about it.

Get a life and vote.

CaptainTruth

(6,599 posts)
41. The input data (votes) originates in a variety of formats,
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:18 PM
Mar 2015

but at some point votes are counted & aggregated into electronic format, lists of numbers stored in files like spreadsheets or databases. That's where the big vulnerability is. One person with access to the server that's recording the vote counts for a state can alter the number of votes for any candidate, making the reported vote total different from the sum of what all precincts reported.

Those are exactly the kinds of changes that are seen when official state vote results are examined. The numbers literally don't add up, in ways that have millions-to-one odds of being just accidental.

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
47. yes the spreadsheet is the ultimate blackbox
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:36 PM
Mar 2015

the relatively new soe reporting software terrifies me and it is used all over the country

Omaha Steve

(99,683 posts)
42. Why do scanners and machines have proprietery code we citizens aren't allowed to inspect?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:18 PM
Mar 2015

Must be rough to be so trusting of the vote counters.


mother earth

(6,002 posts)
43. That's why many tactics are utilized, silly human. When the known issues are not tackled, and
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:21 PM
Mar 2015

campaign finance reform is never an issue, one doesn't have to think too long to realize what fools we are to keep the sytem "as is", or to remain silent about it.

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
72. What if there are many individual voting precincts that have veribiable voting?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 03:09 PM
Mar 2015

I'm not saying there are, but let's say there are for the sake of argument? Does that mean that the system as a whole isn't thoroughly corrupt?

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
49. Check it out ~ we even had an Electronic Voting Links Library here at DU years ago:
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:39 PM
Mar 2015

I really miss Stephanie.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x38915

The DU right wing will do its best to convince you that vote manipulation through electronic voting is virtually impossible.

There is a reason why they do this:

?1386110745

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
55. Ah...so now, DEMOCRATS are rigging voting machines?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:15 PM
Mar 2015

The same rigged voting machines the Republicans put it? Very ecumenical of them.

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
65. The DU right wing will do its best to convince you that vote manipulation..."
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 02:51 PM
Mar 2015

...linked to the always popular Third Way list.

Third Way is a subset of Democrats, much as some people here dispute it. And they work to elect Democrats over Republicans.

And why would Third Way or the "DU Right Wing" try to mislead people about vote manipulation if it's factually true"?

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
77. No matter which of the only two parties we can vote for that has
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 03:54 PM
Mar 2015

a chance of winning is put into office, Third Way wins. If republicans win, Third Way moves closer to, or maybe even gets, the entitlement (their word, not mine) cuts they promote. They get the war(s) they want. If corporatists Democrats win, they maintain the status quo of the illusion of a national democracy, the status quo of oligarchy, and the status quo of the polarization of wealth. etc. etc.

(Please don't make me get the links where the Third Way promotes all their nasty bullshit, you know they are there, and you must know I have found them before).

Unlike the rest of us, who generally won't profit much, if at all, economically speaking, like the Third Way and Republicans do when a corporatist of either party is elected. The ever increasing polarization of wealth will continue unimpeded no matter which corporatist candidate, "Democrat" or Republican is elected.

If a corporatist Democrat is elected, we will have some social and environmental gains. If a corporatist republican is elected, the world totally goes totally to hell for everyone but the upper classes. Meanwhile, no matter what, the country keeps moving to the right, to the delight of the Third Way, the republicans, and the oligarchs.

Easy-peasy.

Being a member of several minority groups, I have no other sane option, I have to vote for the Democratic nominee, or risk serious hazard to my liberty and health, and the liberty and health of my family and friends. The PTB know that Democrats and left independents, etc have little choice: Either we vote for the Democratic candidate that they choose for us, or we get sociopathic republicans running our country.

I want something more than a Democratic candidate who is chosen for me, something more than a Democrat whose primary function is to maintain and increase the power of corporations and oligarchs to control me and ensure that democracy remains nothing but an illusion. I want the chance to vote for a Democratic candidate who understands what necessary changes must be made, and who will sincerely work to solve the problems that prevent democracy, equality, and justice for everyone, who will work for the people, and not primarily for the oligarchs and their corporations.

And the innate ability to quickly and easily manipulate vote counts with electronic voting machines can prevent those things from ever happening, nip them right in the bud during the nomination process, if the media fails to prevent it in the first line of defense. Electronic voting machine vote manipulation is a "no muss, no fuss" fail safe mechanism by which corporations/oligarchs can prevent democracy, equality, and justice from ever occurring on a national scale in the United States.

So we need to kill these machines, forever, ASAP.

The global power of the financial centers is so great, that they can afford not to worry about the political tendency of those who hold power in a nation, if the economic program (in other words, the role that nation has in the global economic megaprogram) remains unaltered. The financial disciplines impose themselves upon the different colors of the world political spectrum in regards to the government of any nation. he great world power can tolerate a leftist government in any part of the world, as long as the government does not take measures that go against the needs of the world financial centers. But in no way will it tolerate that an alternative economic, political and social organization consolidate. For the megapolitics, the national politics are dwarfed and submit to the dictates of the financial centers. It will be this way until the dwarfs rebel . .

http://struggle.ws/mexico/ezln/1997/jigsaw.html
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
51. What's telling is...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 01:52 PM
Mar 2015

That in places where the vote count is done openly Democrats get elected and republicans go home.

We have been swindled by the electronic vote counts and it is very curious that republicans own the companies who make and program the majority of the vote counting machinery.

The congress can determine how the vote is counted for federal elections only. It has decided that there be a mishmash of vote counting processes which leads to many backdoors for theft and manipulation.

Our democracy is dead as long as the vote can be miscounted.

 

november3rd

(1,113 posts)
79. Remembering the 2004 Swing State Red Shift
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:12 PM
Mar 2015

I remember it well. We went bananas here and on Daily Kos. Lots of bloggers had seen the exit polls, and the sudden shift in the Ohio results after midnight.

I also remember Barbara Boxer objecting to the results of the election as presented to the House of Representatives, and holding up the certification of those results all day on the day after the voting.

Tom Delay was mocking "comparing the results to exit polls!" He called it the "X-Files Wing of the Democrat__ Party."

With no media support, the facts were buried even more quickly than the 30,000 voters scrubbed from the rolls illegally in Florida.

It's the same with all our institutions, though. I will read the book, but I am inclined now to think that it's up to the people to reconstruct our social fabric based upon trust and morality instead of power, prestige and affluence.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
80. Great to see you posting again. This is probably the most important issue before us today.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:13 PM
Mar 2015

If we can't trust our voting system, we do not have a democracy.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
81. One problem I've always had with these arguments.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 04:27 PM
Mar 2015

I'm not saying that the voting is valid and accurate and 100% above board and all that. I am saying the problem is the polling. Public Opinion Polls tend to fall within a certain range, and it is accomplished by phoning say two thousand people and asking them questions. Then they select a thousand of those people and weed out the remainder as unreliable. All of that is done statically and through a process that is always undergoing refinement.

Exit polling is done in the parking lot where you select some of the voters and ask them questions. In order to be statistically valid, it has to get a good sample of the public. You can kind of estimate that by asking people questions in every polling place, but they don't have enough people to do that, so they select certain polling places, and allow them to represent the whole. However, those polling places are but a snapshot of those districts, not necessarily the entire state.

With phone polls when you get an answer, it is looked at, considered, and then put on the back burner. You wait until you have more polls from other companies before you start to determine a trend. You wait because one poll is not enough of a look to see what is going on regarding public opinion. If you have three polls that say the people oppose Obamacare by ten points, and then one comes in and it reports that the people support it by a whopping twenty points, you don't jump for joy. You wait, and see if that trend continues. You wait because that one poll may be an outlier, an anomaly. Oh the results may be accurate, as far as it goes. Calls to geographic areas, but there is no way to be certain that you're getting an accurate sample. So you wait. If the next couple polls show that then you think there might be a trend.

I've been voting since 1988. I've voted in Southern California, in person. I've voted in Georgia, in person. I've voted in the last four Presidential elections, in person. I've voted in every mid term and special, in person. I've never seen a person asking questions after I voted. Not once. Does that mean that they were not asking questions in my state? No, but it does mean they were not asking at that time, and at that place.

To get an accurate sample, you would have to question just about every fifth person coming out of the polling place. Even then that does not take into account early voting, absentee ballots, and a host of other issues.

So exit polling to me, is rather inaccurate. It's interesting to see the numbers afterwards, and to see the results. But the polling is weighted. Let me explain what that means.

You are standing outside of the polling place. You know that the electorate is made up of about half women. So you make a point to question as many women as men. In the last election, you know that the district went Blue plus five. In other words Democrats won by five percentage points. So you begin there, you throw out excessive Republican votes because it does not fit the trend. You select your polling place because the results there mirrored the district average last time. That is no guarantee that the voters in that district are going to be an accurate sample of the rest of the district, or state. The district is ten percent black. So you try and make sure one out of ten people are black. Same with other minorities. After a couple hours, you move on to another polling place, or not. Either way, you get a snapshot at best, that may or may not be fairly accurate.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Finally, congressional approval. I think that has more to do with disapproving of other peoples representatives. As I said, I live in south Georgia, and even the Democratic voters generally speaking don't want Nancy Pelosi representing them. So when someone asks them if they approve, or disapprove of Congress, they say disapprove. They disapprove of Nancy and many others, but they re-elect their congressman, because he is doing and saying what they want to hear. What those people are saying is your representative sucks, but mine is pretty good. You couldn't get Cotton elected in California, but he was elected from his state. You couldn't get Senator Durbin elected in my state, you just couldn't do it. A Democrat in Georgia either has to be from a Democrat plus a huge amount to win, or has to be a very blue dog Democrat. Not fair, but true.

So what those polls are showing, especially with the reelection of so many, is that the people disapprove of representatives that are not their own. It's the I'm right and you all are idiots trend writ large. Everyone is guilty of that one. Yes, I mean people on the left, and right.

Exit polling if weighted against the actual results can give you an idea of what people were thinking, generally speaking, about the election. It can't predict the election because districts change, and attitudes change.

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
94. These exit polls were taken and analyzed scientifically.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 05:48 PM
Mar 2015

You say that they can give you an idea of what people were "thinking". The participants in the exit poll are not asked what they are thinking. They are asked whom they voted for -- just a few minutes or seconds ago. That is one important advantage they have over most other types of surveys -- no reliance on long term memory. Also, unlike pre-election polls, the facts are much clearer. They are not asked whom they think they are going to vote for tomorrow or any other time in the future. They are asked whom they just voted for. No need to weigh the likelihood that they are going to vote.

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
96. Ok. But.....
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 06:25 PM
Mar 2015

Unless they question every single person, they are striving for a statistical sample. The ability to achieve that statistical sample is exceedingly difficult. Unless you believe asking one out of a hundred, or a thousand voters is somehow more accurate than the actual vote. Then the location, selection of participants and time of day comes into question don't you think?

Exit pollsters don't ask one tenth of the voters who they voted for. They try for a statistical sample. Sometimes they are right, and sometimes not. That is what I am saying.

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
97. I don't understand your problem with a statistical sample
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 06:56 PM
Mar 2015

Almost all of science is based on statistical samples. It is not that difficult to obtain a statistically valid sample with exit polling.

You bring up the question of whether exit polls are more valid than the actual vote. But the more relevant question is whether they are more valid than the "official" vote count. Under current conditions of lack of security of the counting of votes, and given the myriad studies on the subject that have been done, it seems quite evident that the answer is no.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
101. I don't have the statistics but I believe that exit polling has been very accurate in
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 08:36 PM
Mar 2015

the world and in the USofA until a decade ago. Something changed. There are different possible explanations but just remember, the Republicons cheat every which way they can. Guaran-fracking-tee they will try to corrupt the vote counting machines.

JackHughes

(166 posts)
87. It is utterly naive...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 05:01 PM
Mar 2015

It is utterly naive to believe that the same people who advocate torture, that lie to sell a war, who have looted American retirement and job security and literally snatch the food from the mouths of America's poor would draw the line at stealing elections.

The proof has been staring us in the face -- exit polls stopped functioning as accurate predictors of "official" election results at the exact moment when unverifiable, easily hackable computerized voting was introduced.

Only fools think this is coincidental.

JackHughes

(166 posts)
89. Not in the states...
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 05:13 PM
Mar 2015

Republicans have been unable to steal the presidency -- the landslides have been too great -- but they have been able to control congress and a majority of state legislatures.

Republicans just need to get it close enough to steal -- within 5%.

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
98. 2006 we took back the House....and pick up 5 Governorships and 6 senate seats
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 07:15 PM
Mar 2015

The Republicans picked up none. Some were close and some were blowouts. And yet the Republicans couldn't find an election to rig? How convenient.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
95. If Dems show up in numbers, there's no way they can win. They're not showing up.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 05:56 PM
Mar 2015

I don't doubt for a moment that the Right is doing everything possible to obstruct the voting process, if it means less voting machines in lower income neighborhoods to actually stealing votes electronically. Read "What Went Wrong in Ohio: The Conyers Report on the 2004 Presidential Election" By John Conyers. It's all so disturbing and makes you wonder why Kerry didn't ask for a recount. You have to remember that the Republican Party are criminals and they will go to any length to gain power. They can not win by abiding by the law.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
116. Isn't that blaming the voters, instead of correcting the problem?
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:34 PM
Mar 2015

If the Democratic leadership in DC is so lame, that it can't/won't provide the damning evidence to
the public of the GOP dirty tricks, and hammer them relentlessly, by any legal means necessary;
if the Leadership isn't 'up for that', then the party doesn't deserve an ounce of respect or loyalty.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
99. It's Pretty Obvious But Totally Ignored ( In America) For Years
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 07:38 PM
Mar 2015

And the democrats didn't want to hear of it and couldn't OK more computer voting than they did.

I'm not sure why it took all this time for Kerry to see this. I knew it that night. But. like Gore, he fell all over himself to do what Dems do, give up. Thank you sir, may I have another.

2000 took the cake. The biggest election fraud ever and look at the consequences. I'm struck that it was allowable for one candidate's brother and his state campaign director to play such a huge role in the state where it came down to. Beyond all those Jewish people accidentally voting for Buchanan, tens of thousands were barred from voting, in blue districts mainly, just because they had a name similar to a felon. This was on purpose, Greg Palast nailed it. But nobody wants the truth here, so his truth runs in Britain., nobody will hire him in the USA.

One thing old Joe Stalin was right about it is his saying that no, the power wasn't with those voting, but rather with who counts the votes.

All those changes and all of them a plus and a win for republicans. Duh.

Beyond going to multiple parties and IRV, if we want a real democracy our voting should be paper ballots that would be under strict and impartial security till they are counted publicly and on video, with all parties and also impartial observers there.

SusanCalvin

(6,592 posts)
104. Thank you.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 08:47 PM
Mar 2015

I've posted a couple of replies fairly recently indicating that I believe this to still be an issue. I was pooh-poohed, but I believe the facts are with me (and you).

 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
109. +1000
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:34 PM
Mar 2015
the purpose of CODE RED is not to stir up bad memories of a forgotten past. Rather, it is a plea to the American people to take seriously a continuing and growing threat to our democracy



 

blkmusclmachine

(16,149 posts)
110. 14th Characteristic of Fascism (http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm):
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:36 PM
Mar 2015
http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


dougolat

(716 posts)
111. The denial of this fundamental problem is damning us.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 10:46 PM
Mar 2015

Both on the media and the individual arena:

The media's ownership status implies complicity.

The individuals in denial are displaying complacency, naivete, and/or cowardice.

Widespread recognition and awareness is the first corrective step.

Mr_Jefferson_24

(8,559 posts)
113. Very important stuff.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:05 PM
Mar 2015

If we don't fix the now nationwide problem of electronic election rigging, nothing else we do is going to matter. Easy undetectable election theft is the life blood of the fanatical neocon GOP -- take it away and they're finished.

Does anyone here really believe Scott Walker would be Governor of Wisconsin if how people voted in that state
actually mattered in their gubernatorial race(s)? Many many examples of this kind of election theft in the US over the last 15 years.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
114. Watch for Republicans gaining and passing from behind when the later returns come in.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:15 PM
Mar 2015

It's not that this can never happen, but it seems that too often an underdog Republican candidate upsets a strong Democrat with a surprise win from behind as the later returns come in.

But if returns come in at random this pattern should seldom occur.

Voting returns are about math and probability, not a horse that a jockey can pace until the home stretch, then hit with his riding crop to make it run faster at the end of a race.

If Republicans seem to come from behind in too many races it is likely that the number fudging is taking place late in the returns, because they don't know how much they need to fudge the numbers by in order to make the margin of win small enough to appear subtle and avoid detection.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
115. Some Democrats were ALL over this, right after the 2004 election.
Mon Mar 23, 2015, 11:29 PM
Mar 2015

But not enough apparently, to actually get any traction at the core
of the DNC or whatever the Third Way goes by these daze.

I posted (off the top of my head) about 5 ways GOP cheat on elections,
and I didn't even include computerized election fraud because NO ONE
is talking about that anymore. There's absolutely no excuse for the
Democratic DC Leadership to take this on ... crickets is all I hear.

This is one of the most convincing pieces of evidence, supporting my
suspicion that the two parties are pretty much working together behind
the curtain, while providing an infotainment "Punch & Judy Show" for
the press and the electorate.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
117. David Dill: "It is not enough that elections be accurate--
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:45 AM
Mar 2015

--we have to KNOW that they are accurate, and we don't"

brooklynite

(94,670 posts)
118. Okay...for the sake of discussion, let's stipulate that there's digital tampering of elections...
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 07:53 AM
Mar 2015

What are YOU going to do about it?

I've pointed out that no elected official, candidate or political party is claiming this happens. Either they disagree with you or they're "afraid" to come forward, or they're part of the conspiracy.

Folks have been blogging back and forth to each other about this for 10 years. What are you going to do to change things?

questionseverything

(9,657 posts)
120. you are not correct
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 01:28 PM
Mar 2015
http://www.sweetremedy.tv/fatallyflawed/media/RTA_Fraud_Flyer_3_7_12.pdf

this case of election fraud is well documented and the election integrity activists have been in court for years trying to get relief for citizens...the fix they have asked for is simple and based on the humbolt county project....run the ballots thru a scanner and put them on line so anyone that wishes can double check the accuracy of the count

Time for change

(13,718 posts)
122. First thing
Tue Mar 24, 2015, 02:57 PM
Mar 2015

Resolving a problems BEGINS with recognition that it exists.

Until that first step is taken there is little or no chance of resolving it. As a nation, we have not accomplished that first step.

Beyond that, the solution is very complicated, probably nobody knows precisely what it is, and it may be that the next step won't be taken until things are really desperate. Code Red has some ideas that look like reasonable next steps to me. I suggest you read the book.

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