General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Libertarian" Rand Paul "cleverly" accuses pro-choice advocates of infanticide
ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Rand Paul is no Libertarian. He's a Republican with one or two variations from the party norm.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)Happens to coincide with the liberal position.
--imm
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)My best friend was a libertarian. I tried to disabuse him of his libertarianism all through graduate school though he was book smarter than me and resistant to my efforts. Rand Paul is no libertarian.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)... sort of ... if you don't think too much. The things they had no answers for, civil rights, women's rights, the military industrial complex, the Vietnam war -- don't respond well to "free market" forces.
And then Marx made a lot of sense.
Is your friend still libertarian? (BTW, I still see my political genesis in what I naively thought were libertarian principles. Like my agreement with Debbie.)
--imm
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)The guy used to read Wittgenstein for fun.
He was pragmatic when it came to voting though...When our fellow UCF alum, Dick Batchelor (D) ran against Bill McCollum (R) he contributed to his campaign...Batchelor who I knew lost...That's a Republican seat...It's been altered a bit but Dan Mica (R) represents it now.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)It's a case of bias confirmation, combined with appeal to authority. They quote Hume a lot too. And Popper.
It's a rhetorical deflection. It's in the nature of philosophy to make a big deal out of bullshit. And then you have nothing that's applicable to real world problems.
Libertarians are ideologues, and can't venture far from the hypothetical.
--imm
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Wittgenstein was too dense for me...
In grad school I was reading a lot of Lester Thurow who was very much in vogue in the 80s, Michael Harrington, John Kenneth Galbraith, and Robert Heilbroner...Of course I read the classics like The Leviathan, The Social Contract, Plato's Republic, On Liberty, The Communist Manifesto, the Federalist Papers, and stuff like that as part of the core curriculum.
I am much further left ideologically than I am operationally because I don't believe there's a plurality or majority of voters who are ready to embrace what appeals to me ideologically; the distance between is versus ought to be.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)I usually identify myself (when forced) as a social democrat. But ideologically I'm a pragmatic hippie.
I belong to a meet-up that meets weekly for dinner, and nominally discusses the implementation of direct democracy. What you cite are among the problems we discuss. Also education, participation, mediums of exchange, avoiding revolution, if that's possible, whether we're being watched, etc.
--imm
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)First of all it's illegal to advocate the violent overthrow of the government, second of all, the logistics of such an undertaking is mind boggling and a lot of our own would be collateral damage, and third of all there is no guarantee in the anarchic situation that would surely follow that really bad people wouldn't take advantage of the situation.
And I rather leave these revolutionary fantasies to the right...
immoderate
(20,885 posts)But a true democracy would involve a radical change in governance. And how to bring that about without causing a revolution is on the menu. People are aware of chaos theory, incompleteness theorems, unanticipated results, etc.
We are only meeting for dinner, not planning an insurrection.
--imm
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)I just think it's preposterous to suggest it in a nation as complex and diverse as ours...
And there's the sad reality that in a truly anarchic society the first think folks will forget is their humanity and the first thing they will remember is what tribe they belong to.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)As it is, it's frequently how to institute more democratic systems. But preposterous is welcome. Ever brainstorm?
--imm
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)Reminds me of when Dr. King disabused Malcolm X of the notion that violent insurrection is feasible and how badly it would end for those fomenting it.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)--imm
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)to "get the government involved", all the way up to dragging them off to prison in their wheelchairs for smoking a joint.
Damn, I wish we had better spokespeople. She sucks.
immoderate
(20,885 posts)--imm
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)as "smaller government".
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)It's a antediluvian position, imho.
I am a bit more flexible when it comes to legalization for recreational use but you have to be cold hearted to burden someone with a criminal record for smoking a joint...
I am in CA and they , imho, struck a nice balance by decriminalizing the possession of marijuana and treating it as a civil infraction; no court appearance, no jail time, and no criminal record, just a fine up to $100.00. It demonstrates society's disapproval while not ruining people lives for what at its worst is a petty violation of the law.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)By any rational, objective standard alcohol is a far more dangerous drug. I've been firmly of the opinion that pot should be legal, regulated, and taxed, available as a consenting adult choice. It took a while, but the country is catching up to me, like it has on LGBT marriage equality.
"Society's disapproval" doesn't make a ton of sense when a good chunk of society doesn't, actually, disapprove.
That's where we're at, up here (finally) and I suspect that is where you guys are headed, too.
Either way, DWS misjudged that issue, and I know for a fact it has hurt her with a large portion of the party.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)The whiff of it is "everywhere". That was one of the largest culture shocks when i moved here three years ago from FL...
I don't get DWS... She runs virtually unopposed in her district and has the leeway to do whatever she wants. She wants to run for statewide office and I assume she wants to get closer to what FL voters want but FL voters are split on the issue...
And more importantly I don't believe she can beat Marco Rubio... I don't believe an incumbent FL senator has lost in recent history.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I know, I've lived in Marin and Sonoma, among other places.
I was a stone's throw away from the Grateful Dead's main office, back in the day.
I barely even smoke it anymore, maybe once in a blue moon... although I readily admit I smoked the crap out of it, in my youth. In the pantheon of drugs, it's far and away one of the more benign substances.
Someone who drinks a fifth of scotch every day and tries to quit cold turkey, is likely going to require hospitalization. When a daily pothead quits, they may get cranky, but it's not going to be a medically life-threatening issue.
On DWS, I think she shot herself in the foot, bigtime. Unfortunately in our party too many people are listening to beltway "conventional wisdom" that is already 10 years outdated. Like, DWS probably thought she was appealing to "security/soccer moms" and "tough on crime" or "values" voters by being anti-mmj.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)But there was a stretch in high school where I literally went a full year, getting high every day.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)about the GOP for refusing to provide and cutting current funding to ensure proper diet and health care for pregnant mothers.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)If the babies thrive after birth. This is the disgusting part.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)Still, the push to make definitions of the unborn persons will continue until a more generally accepted rational becomes widespread.
I've thought about this topic for decades and I don't really understand why defense of self and family shouldn't be better accepted as a rational for abortion. It is accepted outside the US
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)family defense".
It's an argument that seems to be successfully used to support abortion through much of the rest of the world.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)I'm sorry about somehow leaving that unclear.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Just because you "changed your mind."
On the contrary, this drastic measure would only be under great grief and distress because of dire circumstances.
In fact, in many cases women are forced to carry a fetus that has died until they go into labor naturally. This can be at risk of severe infection, not to mention the emotional trauma of such a forced physical pain.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)terminate a full or near full term pregnancy because they wanted to go to Cabo with the ladies and must be stopped is incredibly offensive.
Fuck that guy.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)misogynist pig
Hekate
(90,829 posts)....he got all whiny and defensive, with all kinds of excuses about how it's the reporter's fault, the circumstances being not face to face, yadda yadda yadda.
Bottom line: Rand is very rude to women, very dismissive. I hope this bites him in the ass, real soon and real hard.