and he deserves to spend the rest of his life there.

And if that does not work... no dessert for a whole week.

have any bearing whatsoever on the definition of torture?

You recommend to make them less dangerous?

I disagree that taking reasonable precautions and extraordinary security measures to maximize the safety of guards and other inmates amounts to torture.

Solitary Confinement.

If you are going to defend it at least OWN what it is you are defending.

And we did this kind of thing long before the Bush administration and Gitmo.

I think it may not be accepted as torture by most people in most situations.

If it is a political prisoner, maybe it is considered so for asylum purposes.

Also I am not of the turn of mind that says that people in government are gleeful about torturing people. I suspect they came up with this as a way of avoiding contact with other prisoners that could result in injury or is the only thing they can come up with so far to control this type of person. We shouldn't so much identify with this type of person. We aren't like that at all. I'd hate to be in solitary but then I cannot imagine setting a bomb that would kill other humans.

"We shouldn't so much identify with this type of person. "

I appreciate that your perspectives and prerogatives are your own. I choose not to abide by this 'othering' outlook. It is very challenging to feel empathy for people deemed unworthy of it, but that's what makes society civil.

And yes, I agree this country has been guilty of torture long before the Bush administration. I do not agree that most people wouldn't accept this as torture, were they forced to confront what it actually entails.

I haven't. I admit it does not sound like it would be all that painful, but then I'm an introvert. If it were a very small cell with no room to move around.

Manson has a TV and some size to the cell, as I understand it.

And empathy could include that such a person might be more comfortable alone. That's still in question too. These are people who are willing to kill other people, so it might follow they don't like being around people. Socializing is not likely to be top on their list. Or they wouldn't have done what they did.

Effects of solitary confinement. If it not a pretense please look into it.
The prison system is too brutal and impactful to minimize and dismiss.

These are people

These are people who killed other people.

What do you suggest?

What are the details? That's what they think they are doing in the first place.

What should they be doing?

Do we even know what it is like to attempt to contain the unibomber, Tsarnaev, Manson and others? I have no experience with that, so I'd like to hear from those who do before deciding they are doing it just to torture the convicts.

To train the guards.

Why? Do you speak for them?

No you " have no experience with that"

You are the only one suggesting anyone does it "just to torture the convict".

On the other hand you can have any criteria you want when making up your mind.

so you must know more than they do about how they can be handled, it kind of follows.

it may not torture them. People sometimes do not agree on a thing. This leads to a discussion. Broad brush statements that there is only one way to look at an issue do not change that.

Without all the bells and whistles of supermax?

Their objection is the lack of meaningful human interaction, at least as I understand it.

I think people are putting their own feelings on him. They'd be tortured without that. But is the Unabomber? He lived out in a shack on his own at one point. It would be no surprise he hates people.

And they overlook the safety to them aspect.

What would you do with them?

or Marion.

John Gotti was held in, brace yourself...., SOLITARY confinement, for ten years in Marion.

What about Thomas Silverstein? He has been in NO HUMAN CONTACT SOLITARY CONFINEMENT in your beloved Leavenworth Federal prison for 28 years. Is this your solution?

http://solitarywatch.com/2011/05/05/americas-most-isolatd-federal-prisoner-describes-10220-days-in-extreme-solitary-confinement/

Gary Ridgeway is in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT except for four hours a week at Washington State Penitentary. That is barely more than half the time they get for recreation in a Supermax. Is that OK with you? Or would you prefer he be put into general population and stabbed or beaten to death?

Would you put them into the general population where they would be torn limb from limb and killed by the inmates, or put them in protective custody, AKA solitary confinement, for their own protection?

They would all be put in solitary confinement for their whole sentences in the prisons you tout. Just like in SuperMax. See the disconnect??

in that to be alone all the time is, but then there is the aspect it is for their protection.

They knew Charles Manson wouldn't last, so he's been in solitary for all this time.

Kind of a stealth death penalty?

You think regular inmates are going to look kindly on this child murdering bastard?

The only hope this pig has of not getting a shiv in his back is the supermax, if he doesn't get a lethal spike in the arm first of course.

Funny.

Some people are dangerous and we need make sure they dont get out.

Im also not to sure he would last too long in general population anyway, so he may not have many options.

Maybe these criminals should think about what they do before they do it.
This is why I am against the death penalty. Death would be preferable to living like that.

Haven't seen the requisite prison rape fantasies yet, but I'm sure they'll pop up too.

As if the state paralyzing, choking, and suffocating a human being wasn't sufficiently brutal to satisfy some people's torture and agony fantasies.

You're dangerously close to forgetting all about what the victim (now) here did.

I don't have fantasies about choking Tsarnaev to death. Some of his victim's survivors might.

Arguing they should be treated humanely is different from accusing people of being torturers because they do want Tsarnaev to be contained somewhere and even suffer. How about loss of freedom? That's probably torture to Tsarnaev too. But surely you are for his losing his freedom for life? He's notorious, and other prisoners might want to kill or harm him. That's another consideration.

You're attacking people who want to punish Tsarnaev for their apparent brutality, but forgot all about his.

then we are advocating torture. Is that label enough to make us evil?

I only advocate torture for Tsarnaev, Ted Kaczynski and persons convicted of like crimes.

Their killer will live. They're dead. Think about it.

....would be good start.

It is torture and as a nation we should be against that.

He chose this.

I'm talking about Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, Powell, and yes, even Stupid. Compared to them, Tsarnaev is a choirboy.

However, he'll be isolated in a very small population if he's not kept in solitary because they don't want him to preach Wahab horseshit to a bunch of angry men in the general population.

He should be able to associate freely with the other nutcases. Solitary for the rest of his life is torture. Long term solitary should be abolished.

Probably not many meals needed for the pretty little q-tip.

A war is still a war. Nobody will be convicted for murder because of serving in the military and killing someone in a war. At least admit to the difference. I hate war but I'm not going to claim each soldier who went there is a murderer, nor the President in time of war, or the Congress who approved the war. That has difference considerations. I may be against the war but it's not murder. And I say the same thing to those who call abortion "murder." It's abortion, that why it has a different word to use for it. Murder is killing a born human being.

Not psychological torture for the rest of his life.

I give him a few months to live.

they would be getting recommendations for good psychiatrists.

People who plot to murder wholesale?

Bryant

They're pretty much the only group that can have rape, murder, torture, and other violence wished upon them, and not only is it socially acceptable, some will proudly plant their flag on that hill.

Is that weighing in here?

Of all people to have that visited upon them, this is the one group that it can be considered for.

I never thought on DU I would actually see someone saying that there are certain people who can be acceptably raped.

Jesus fucking Christ.

This method of debate is in bad faith. You are getting frustrated trying to advocate that it is evil to want Tsarnaev in solitary even after what he did.

And making out people who question the idea he does not deserve that are evil slobberers fantasizing about torture. Actually, I would not be thinking about it at all, and no one else would. Holy Fuck is not appropriate, as there are few humans who will be terribly shocked at the idea of Tsarnaev being in solitary. You seem to take for granted that a liberal should be up in arms about Tsarnaev being tortured. Bad faith arguers might accuse you of being one of those supporters he has.

Post you responded to:

Yes that is bad faith. You know I did not mean that.

I was thinking of solitary, which you have already defined as "torture." No I do not wish that on him, so allow me to clear that up then.

Either isolation for his own safety.

Or gen-pop. Where I doubt he would last very long.

Even the worst of the worst seem to have an issue with someone who would lay a bomb next to a little boy.

that's a straw man trying to make people look bad - people who are doubting about having this much concern for the comfort of Tsarnaev, a person who carried out his murder and torture fantasies on others.

It is not a murder fantasy to think Tsarnaev should get the death penalty. It is not a torture fantasy to think he should be locked up in a super max. You really think people are salivating at a fantasy of this guy suffering?

He'll wind up dead in gen pop. That's not my fantasy, that's just reality.

Pity for this scum disgusts me and almost leads me to beleive the ones weeping for him are trolls to make this site look like idiots.

Physical torture would be wrong. Psychological torture might be beyond his capabilities. If he's not repentant, do we really worry about whether it psychologically bothers him he can't be out in the general prison population? He wants to socialize with those guys? Or kill one or two of them if he thinks of a way?

If he does feel remorse and it psych tortures him, that's pretty hard to argue against. How do we make the case that's cruel for him and he shouldn't feel bad about what he did?

That piece of shit that blew that child's liver out of his body will never regret it.

Ever.

It seems a few members care deeply he isn't too inconvenienced in prison

still really hurts.

What a good little guy. Makes Tsarnaev's apparent arrogance and lack of remorse even harder to take.

thank you for the reminder.

my heart turns to stone.

And let me just say that it's real hard for my heart to turn all cold like that. But kill a kid, animal, or elderly person, and that's it.


People might just as well ask me to get all emotional about an ant living 3,000 miles away as to care what happens to a child killer.

Especially one who was such a goddamned coward he ran away and hid under a boat in someone's yard instead of accepting the immediate consequences of what he had done.

There are those on this site who consider us torture advocates if we believe this scum belongs in prison the rest of his life.

I hate name calling, but boy, there are a lot of those name callers here on good old DU.

Torture for me would be living without my legs, without my little boy. Knowing that some remorseless scum was out buying milk while the body pieces were still being counted.

God, the heartlessness of some posters here just blows my mind.

far better than those from Boston.

McVeigh got off easily and became the hero he wanted to be to the right.

Not to other lawyers, reporters, biographers. No one, ever.

Clarify please.

whatever you say.

my opinions for me though I would avoid any opinions held by Fox News employees.

Blowing up and maiming men, women, and little children, plus running your own brother over with a stolen car takes a special kind of person. And then blaming it all on your dead brother for leading you down the path makes you a real tough hombre.

Supermax will be ice cream for this guy.

He should be able to handle supermax! Hell, he'll probably enjoy it.

...but when it comes to someone that committed the crimes of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, I'm fresh out of any motivation to improve his lot.

He made his lethal injection gurney, now he can lay down and take a dirt nap on it.

Excuse me while I dont give a shit.

Become what we once feared, makes it easier the next time we decide to cross that threshold..

Or, just punishment?

You can't have it both ways, and claim that supermax prisons are too harsh, but the death penalty is also too harsh, as well.
It has to be one or the other.

Because they sure as hell aren't going to let him go.

makes me sick. I could careless if the little bastard was sent to death or sent to Supermax with all the other scumbag terrorists. If he's sent to Supermax and lives the rest of his pathetic life like a rabid animal, that's too bad, so sad. He gave away his education and the comforts of Dartmouth to commit a brutal act of terrorism on innocent people who had NOTHING to do with the radical extreme views he and his dead brother shared. You can call it "torture fantasy" all you want, but I call it JUSTICE. I have no sympathy for prisoners, and I sure as hell have no sympathy for Tsarnaev. Fuck him.

Don't know if he would be safe in general population.

In a regular prison, would he be an escape risk? He seems unrepentant, and if he escapes, would he commit other heinous crimes? Do we (as a society) want to accept that risk?

Any attempts at rehabilitation seem like a waste of time and resources, since he will clearly never get paroled.

I've been reading about Super Max, and it's clearly inhumane, probably torture. But, many of the inmates have harmed others--guards, other inmates--while incarcerated in a regular prison. Some of them are there for the protection of others.

How do you meet the need to protect others while not completely isolating these people?

I suggest house arrest at one of their homes, where they can gently teach the little bastard that it's wrong to blow people up and murder little kids.

I don't favor the dp, so I hope that's where he ends up.

Therefore, the alternative is a lifetime confinement, where this person can reflect on his deeds. This person was personally responsible for deaths and maimings of innocent victims, and that was a planned thing. I'm not inclined to be forgiving of that. Super-Max? That's another questions altogether. He will probably be put there for his own safety, since security for the inmates is higher than at other prisons.

Is it a nice, fulfilling life he'll lead? No. His victims are dead or maimed. I'm not really all that concerned with his comfort or fulfillment in any way. He will have shelter and food, and ample time to reflect on his acts. I'm OK with that.

So far, I have not seen any alternatives offered by anyone.

a place where he "can reflect on his deeds" as much as warehousing him until he dies a natural death.

I think that is the whole point of Super Max. You have people who for one reason or another don't get the death penalty, but on the other hand, can't be around other people, not even ordinary inmates.

What can you do with them?

As for Tsarnaev, he is seen on camera planting a bomb directly behind children. That is a special kind of evil. Based on that, he is well beyond redemption, regardless of his age.

Several jurors wept as they viewed autopsy photos and Nields described his results, saying he found injuries in every area of Martin's body: head, neck, torso and extremities. Remains of the skin showed serious, third-degree burns. The boy's organs, including the spleen, liver and a kidney, were torn apart. Loops of the small intestine were found outside the body.

Inside the body, Nields found a nail, a pellet, a piece of wood and black plastic.

Jurors saw physical evidence from Martin's medical examination, including a shredded T-shirt. They saw a jagged shard of metal that Nields found in the T-shirt. Nields explained how it got there: It had sliced through the boy's abdomen and exited through his spine. Martin's aorta was mostly cut in half.

that will lead to this punishment.

Frankly I doubt that general population is a viable option for Tsarnaev. He wouldn't last long.

Fewer appeals that cause even more expense for many years and inevitable publicity, possibly igniting more crazies. The cute, curly headed dude being executed may incite some strange empathy that encourages more young men to avenge his death

Take him off the front pages and into super max, with NO ability to communicate and "inspire."

US citizens.

My sympathy is with the victims.

He and his brother sure as heck didn't care about the people that they killed and maimed.

he can rot for all i care.

The supermax was the usual 20 year penal fad that will end under the weight of current and future lawsuits. So, ultimately, all this carping and crowing about the severity of Mr. Tsarnaev's punishment is beside the point.

While we're on it, though, I should say that I am always a little stunned by people who are happy to have a punishment they consider MORE cruel than the death penalty. Bizarro American punishment fetish remains the order of the day, I suppose.

...change the aggressive or psychopathic behavior of a human..some day. I repeat, some day. I fully realize that could open the proverbial Pandora's box but perhaps we'll become wise enough and kind enough to solve (at least) some of the behavior that's not caused be environmental circumstances.

I don't know. My field is Physics/Music which allows me to know little about anything else.