were wrong?

Not in the least bit surprised by this study.

Video games are turning our kids into mass murderers blah blah blah

Video games are turning our kids into sexist pigs blah blah blah

They reinforce the idea that women are objects. And since i like video games and want them to be relevant, I don't like that they reflect that ugliness.

Bryant

and we vehemently disagree. Men and women are treated equally as objects in video games.

Jesus on a pogo stick, they are fantasies. They are games. This and other studies time and time again prove that they do not reflect reality nor do they create it either.

You believe that no video games reflect hateful sexism.

You have the right to believe as you like, but I don't think that's accurate.

Bryant

towards women as they do towards men.

Some of the stories are over the top with regards to sex & violence but it is no reflection of a deeper misogyny or misandry. Like literature, film, and even music, it is imagination, creativity, and exploration of all the good and bad in humanity without deeper political agendas perceived by some with issues to be resolved.

and that includes criticism from a feminist perspective.

Bryant

like cultivation and objectification theory, of the critical method have not stood up to empirical testing, as demonstrated in this study.

So just because any topic is open to 'feminist critique', it does not mean it is accurate or valid.

Even if you ignore the Dead or Alive series, what those man children did taking Samus Aran and turning her into a whining, shrieking wimp is Exhibit A

Hell, even Mario and Zelda are pretty damn bad. I can count on one hand the number of times Peach or Zelda are playable characters outside of Mario Kart.

Because it doesn't read that way.

Team Ninja also does Metroid and Ninja Gaiden. Zero misogyny in either. You do know that the protagonist of the Metroid games is Samus Aran, a bounty hunter and a female.

Just because a character is not playable does not mean that it is misogyny. That is the hyperbolic nonsense in all of these discussions. Zelda is still a formidable character irrespective of whether you play her or not. After 30 years of a story, no, I would not expect Link to suddenly change sexes just to satisfy pissed off feminists.

And you obviously don't know your Mario history or the character Princess Peach. She is a playable character in Super Mario Bros 2, Super Paper Mario, Super Smash Bros, all the Mario Karts, all the Mario Sport titles from baseball to basketball to golf, all the Mario Party games, and Super Princess Peach herself. Sorry the facts show she is not just some 'trope' or that she is an example of 'misogyny'.

For over a decade now, more and more games are giving all players a choice when they create the character in the beginning of the game. Men choose to play as women. Women choose to play as men. Whatever. Seriously, whatever. I chose to play Fem Shep during the entire Mass Effect saga for one reason. Her voice acting was exceptional and really made the story as it unfolded quite interesting to me. She was not sexualized even if she engaged in sexual encounters. She and other female characters like Lilith from Borderlands are a thorn in the side of Sarkeesian and her ilk who do not actually play the games, they just push a politicized agenda with regards to gaming.

Why don't we discuss the violence against men in video games? I have played every Call of Duty game in the franchise. Characters are expendable including story line leads. Wave after wave of faceless, nameless, men are blown away to advance the story. I can count on both hands the number of times in a game where I have had to 'kill' a female character, and in all cases, they were story appropriate 'evil' bosses with few exceptions.

Like I said, the facts show that all of this blather is just nonsense.

That was Other M. Team Ninja does not "do" Metroid. In fact, one of the major criticisms of Other M was in the portrayal of Samus Aran. Team Ninja took one of gaming's most famous, celebrated, and toughest female icons and turned her into a whimpering coward who always needs the boys around her at all times.

There is no 'character development' in Mario. It is a frakin' platformer. An Italian plumber has to survive various levels of toadstools that try to kill him, collect coins, and yay, he gets the girl.

Before feminism, literature called these archetypes. Notice that with the original language a discussion can be had because it is a neutral concept. Now it is not.

Plenty of games are like Mass Effect. Check them out.

Sigh. So as usual feminism is not really about equality. You can't throw around concepts like sexism but then say, well it only applies to women. You equally can't throw around concepts like objectification and then say, well it only applies to women. Real misogyny exists. But when an thimble deep game story plot like Mario Bros is used an example of it, the conversation ends. That is hyperbolic bullshit to the extreme.

Step back a second intellectually and you might just see what is wrong with the concepts and then the reality. I won't hold my breath though.

who want to part with their cash-

Get the money! Just like the fundies gofundme bullshit-


You have to give her credit for that LOL

and what she is doing.

She made hundreds of thousands of dollars on her Kickstarter campaign almost 3 years ago, and to date, she has produced only a few of the videos promised.

Now to give her more credit, lots of grifters have discovered that crowd sourcing is a wonderful way to rip people off. For every ten campaigns I have participated in there, at least one to two are utter rip offs with delays, empty promises, shitty products, etc.

Nobody was saying video games make people sexist.

What people like Sarkeesian were saying is that video games reinforce and perpetuate stereotypes about sex and gender rather than challenge them.

If video games "reinforce and perpetuate stereotypes about sex and gender", but don't make the people who patronize them sexist, they why mention it in the first place?

No, it's not just very extreme nuts that promote cultivation theory. It's people like Sarkeesian. It's also people who claim porn causes rape as well as people who claim violent video games make people violent. Many even right here on DU have promoted those ideas with very little evidence of cause and effect.

Playing Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball isn't going to make you a misogynist piece of shit. But if you already were a misogynist piece of shit, you'd feel right at home when you do play it. And that is the real problem: that video games do tend to fit in a sexist's comfort zone.

Video games don't make people sexist anymore than they make people violent. Nobody in the gaming community believes they do for a second.

However, developers and publishers absolutely do pander to the sexist and homophobic, whether it's intentional or just because they don't have the talent to move beyond easily-digestible stereotypes. Which was the whole point of Sarkeesian's videos.

Yes, sexists will play video games, but that doesn't mean developers have to pander to them. They're a minority anyway, and developers can sell much more not appealing to them.

When they don't seem to have much of a problem in that regard.

If that were true I don't think she'd have the following she does.

Sarkeesian's videos point out sexist tropes in video games.

There are a whole lot of female and frankly male gamers who are sick and tired of it. There's a market for developers to at least make an attempt to steer away from lazy sexist writing and character development.

And no, I don't believe "is it sexist or not" is a major factor in how well games sell.

And admits it's limitations. Too bad. I was hoping for something more comprehensive. I don't agree that it negates the impact of sexist tropes. It may be, the gaming community--a part of of larger society, merely reflects generalized sexism and objectification found anywhere and everywhere. It also may be, even if there is no corollation between holding sexist views and gaming (given the death and rape threats recieved by woman who have spoken out on this topic in the gaming community, there is irony here) removing sexism and objectification could have positive effects on gender perception.

This is one quote from Sarkeesian:
"The truth is that these games do not expose some kind of “gritty reality” of women’s lives or sexual trauma, but instead sanitize violence against women and make it comfortably consumable."

She also says here:
"We must remember that games don’t just entertain. Intentional or not, they always express a set of values, and present us with concepts of normalcy."

So she's pretty much suggesting that exposure to the games themselves desensitize the gamer to violence against women and make it more normalized. And the study shows that does not take place. Just like some (even here) have claimed that porn makes people misogynist or view women in different ways. Again, there is no scientific evidence of cause and effect. There is certainly not enough evidence to justify censorship that some are calling for.

Are the stories in games sexist? I don't know if there is a "Bechdel test" for video games. But Hollywood has had that same issue for decades since day one with women getting mainly support roles or being used for "decoration." Perhaps there are points to be made on that particular angle. But that's a different issue. The point here is that according to science, these stories themselves are not making the audience sexist. The entire gaming community has not been made misogynist because of a few stupid games like Grand Theft Auto. And a few stupid teenagers on 4chan making rape threats also doesn't represent the entire industry.

I don't think the quote you provided

I don't know that it's gendered however

I don't think 'cause' is either part or parcel of sanitizing or cultural expression. I do however, realize the bias that may compel one to think as much...

.

And it really does get old and predictable after a while.

Which is also why I'm going to read this study right now.

Whoops no I'm not--not for that price. It was done using German youth and I'm still looking for parameters

Edit again well I'm hoping someone actually read the study; I can't get past the abstract with the link. I suppose I can see if it's available using university access. Has anyone read the study?

Rather than trying to reorder society based on half-baked ideas that have never quite panned out. YMMV.

I agree with you there. Although those few words are the last point of agreement I suspect

I've not read the whole thing yet, but here's a link to it...

http://a.pomf.se/qqecrh.pdf

Off to read

I remember Jack Thompson's video game violence crusade not too long ago, and specifically how the gaming community accurately and rightfully put a stop to it. Video games don't cause people to become violent.

What's happening now is that's been misappropriated to use against Sarkeesian and other feminists. Unlike Thompson though, they're not claiming (despite what some quote mining and cherrypicking supposedly nets) that video games cause people to be sexist, just that there is a massive sexism problem in video games.

regarding sexism in video games. I also find any charges from any quarter that video games cause violence or sexism to be at the very least unproven.

It is a service to know, however, how much violence or sexism exists in video games. Once so informed, people can make decisions about what kind of entertainment they consume and what entertainment they provide to their kids.

I haven't really gamed at all in 10-15 years or so, but if I did, I would be on the lookout for games that are gratuitously violent or engage in sexist tropes and limit my consumption of them.

On Edit: I also find it very interesting how much, and I am being generous in using the term, "pushback" Sarkeesian has received for raising awareness. I find the response to her troubling.

I'm very skeptical of the cultivation theory with regard to violence/sexism and video games, and in that sense I think that people like Sarkeesian are wrong about that particular claim. However, I do think that voices like hers are necessary and valuable in that they provoke reflection and deeper thought about the media we produce and consume as a society. I think she is absolutely right in the sense that many of the common tropes found in storytelling are not egalitarian (or sexist -- to be more blunt) in how they treat male vs. female agency (among other issues).

I also agree that the pushback is troubling. I think it's a natural human tendency to become defensive whenever something one has some attachment and positive affect associated with is criticized-- we've all experienced that. But I think a well-adjusted person is able to agree to disagree or have the ability to enjoy something while recognizing the complexities of the situation. There are way too many people abusing the anonymity of the internet in order to visit emotional violence upon people they disagree with.

People play games for entertainment.

Now, we can get all into arguments about whats news, whats infotainment, etc.

But even before we get there, where is your empirical data about cause and effect? If you don't have any, then my original point stands. Sarkeesian's information about sexist tropes in video games, like warnings about violence in video games is good information to have and upon which to make certain decisions about what entertainment you and your family consume.

There is no science to support more than that.

for information.

Nobody sits down to watch the evening news consciously thinking "it's 5:00 and time to turn on the telly and be influenced by facts".

They think "it's time to watch the news and be informed of the days events".

And the channel they turn on is influenced by many, many, MANY things. A lot of which the viewers are not even conscious of.

You want empirical data about media influences our perceptions?

I'd quip, just look at how much McDonald's spends trying to convince us their food is family friendly, healthy, tasty and desirable.

But since you want a link, I just googled something basic for starters:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-media-psychology-effect/201203/brain-behavior-and-media

We're in violent agreement over whether people watch the news to be influenced. And that is an important distinction versus consuming video game entertainment which is not consumed for that purpose.

of the study was that it was conducted in Germany and the results cannot be generalized to other countries or cultures.

Some video games reinforce sexism, I assume you know enough about video games and sexism that you aren't questioning that. Is there something GOOD about sexism that I'm not understanding?

What some people are saying is that "Some video games reinforce sexism" which is unproven and demonstrably false.

Two different studies are contained in the OP, which were done in different countries with different cultures and both produced the same results. Meanwhile longitudinal studies which support the aforementioned hypothesis are nonexistent.

When ALL the major playable characters are MEN. I can only think of a few games where women are the main characters. Tomb Raider, but of course Lara Croft is dressed in outfits specifically designed to show her assets.

It's fucking stupid to assert they do not. Just like movies, just like TV.

But you are certainly free to believe whatever you want based on assumptions.

That's been an issue for a long time. And most writers say writing leading female characters is difficult because of gender stereotypes that exist. Some of that is just being lazy writing, of course. But there might be something to it. There are stereotypes that may very well make things difficult. Women are frequently viewed as being diplomatic, nurturing, less aggressive, and not take many risks. Men on the other hand are viewed as aggressive, intelligent, motivated, and willing to take risks. Therefore, you can see why writing men as the leading hero and just follow the stereotype is a heck of a lot easier.

There are stereotypes that do exist in our society that most people really do buy into. And so writing a character that breaks that stereotype seems unbelievable to a lot of the audience.

She insists on being Wildstyle, except when I grab Batman then she wants to be him

I like the drill anyway-

Play games much LOL

The Lego Movie deserved to win best picture. Not just best animated feature, best picture period.

Im not kidding.

Fuck the Oscars and their overblown arty pretense.

Those are the only ones I play. In the Lego Movie game, I prefer to be Wonder Woman.

I'm looking forward to Lego Jurassic World.

Curious.

Right now I've been pretty much exclusively playing Titanfall. The only area where gender even comes up is, you can pick either a female or a male pilot to play as. I usually play as the female. Not sure why.

People tune into Fox news expecting reality and get something else.

Big difference.

And in the process of consuming various media there are effects we are conscious of and not conscious of.

At least I'm pretty sure we are. Others seem to be convinced of something else.

What is the last actual video game you have actually played? Honestly?

I think if people want to opine on a form of media, fine, but they should at least have a working knowledge of what they're trying to talk about.

As are the players. Many are infected by the whole GamerGater/MRA bullshit.

would it be ok since a study showed that it didn't increase racist attitudes? I think not. The hypocrisy is astounding.

likely by some of the same people claiming this is okay. I will never understand.

Read the study results again. They have been bolded for the reading challenged.

The study did not show that games were sexist but playing them did not increase sexist attitudes. The study showed playing video games does not make people sexist. Nor does it make them racist, violent, bigoted, etc. This and other studies are rightly challenging the 'cultivation theory' that says that it should or does.

I'm not a gamer so I honestly don't know, but I'm surprised to hear this.

... in part because researchers find that the results of prior studies don't mesh with their own belief systems AND because a positive result would conform to the preferred findings of funders and thus promote financial success.

They think our entertainment is their social experiment

Dude. The sexism already exists. The games merely reinforce the players unchallenged stereotypes.

Look at it this way, imagine a card game in the antebellum south, now... you get more points on how many times you rape a black woman, or whip a black woman or man… or chase them down when they escape…

Well, you are already a racist and whatever point you gain from being a racist is a WIN!

Because you are living in a culture where raping and killing black people are AOK.

And given, we do live in a sexist and rape culture, of course there is no 'link' that is exclusive to video games.

The video games just reinforces sexism.

Making it okay.