...but the words are failing me...

You know something weird, Tierra? (and I don't think you'll agree with me) If HRC would just be straight on such issues, I'd heartily disagree, but I'd have much more respect for her.

Not to say that most politicians don't participate in the same art. The *nudge-nudge*, *wink-wink*, *maybe I will, maybe I won't dance * of "Practical" politics.

I believe that, in a Democracy we are supposed to be skeptical of politicians and scrutinize candidates and hold them accountable. And, I don't believe that doing that makes us "haters". It makes us citizens.

Thanks for your posts, cali. We've differed sometimes but I admire your tenacity and willingness to defend what you say.

Given the people involved I don't trust that it will be good for the American People, and as such I oppose it. There are probably aspects of it I would support; and I'm not opposed to all treaties, but I am suspicious.

Bryant

100% opposed.

Recommended.

It's ludicrous to believe all the countries in the TPP and TTIP are corporate lackeys, and that Obama is trying to sell us into slavery. Christ, it's like listening to a bunch of Tbaggers.

But why should you be accurate and/or honest, hardly anyone else is?

The TPP is a treaty that has been written behind closed doors by the corporate world -- Bernie Sanders.

Is he misinformed or just spreading chit? The USTR and participating States negotiate and write the agreements, not corporations. Obama appointed the top Reps, and the rest are pretty much career government officials.

Below are the names of USTR’s lead negotiators for the TPP.

Overall Leads
Lead Negotiator Barbara Weisel
Deputy Lead Negotiator Drew Quinn

Chapter Leads
Agriculture Roger Wentzel
Ag Market Access Japan Brian Grunenfelder
Capacity Building Drew Quinn/Lia Theodosiou-Pisanelli
Competitiveness Drew Quinn
Competition/SOE’s Daniel Watson
Customs Jason Bernstein
Development Drew Quinn/Lia Theodosiou-Pisanelli
E-Commerce Jonathan McHale
Environment Kelly Milton
Financial Services Christine Bliss
Government Procurement Drew Quinn
Industrial Goods Sushan Demirjian
Intellectual Property Rights Probir Mehta
Investment Daniel Bahar
Labor Lewis Karesh
Legal/Institutional Issues María Pagán
Regulatory Coherence Drew Quinn/Lia Theodosiou-Pisanelli
Rules of Origin Jason Bernstein
Services Todd Nissen
SMEs Sushan Demirjian
SPS Sharon Bomer
TBT Julia Doherty
Telecommunications Jonathan McHale
Textiles Gail Strickler
Trade Remedies Victor Mroczka


Here is background of Assistant U.S. Trade Representative for Labor --
Lewis Karesh was named Assistant U.S. Trade Representative for Labor in August 2005. In this capacity, he oversees trade and labor issues for USTR, including serving as chief negotiator of labor provisions in multilateral, regional, and bilateral free trade agreements, formulating recommendations concerning countries' adherence to worker rights provisions of U.S. trade preference programs, and developing U.S. positions on the relationship between trade and labor in the International Labor Organization, World Trade Organization, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, Inter-American Conference of Ministers of Labor, and other relevant international bodies.

Prior to joining USTR, Mr. Karesh spent 18 years with the U.S. Department of Labor, most recently serving as Director of the Office of Trade Agreement Implementation (OTAI). As head of OTAI, Mr. Karesh was responsible for administering U.S. obligations under the North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (the labor supplemental agreement to the North American Free Trade Agreement) and the labor chapters of bilateral and regional free trade agreements. While at the Department of Labor, Mr. Karesh served as the lead U.S. negotiator for the labor provisions of the U.S.-Morocco Free Trade Agreement and on U.S. labor and dispute settlement negotiating teams for similar agreements with Chile, Singapore, Australia, Central America, and Bahrain.

Mr. Karesh also served as an attorney for nine years with the Department of Labor's Office of the Solicitor where he acted as a legal advisor during negotiation and implementation of the North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation. He also served as legal counsel on matters involving the North American Free Trade Agreement, the World Trade Organization, and the International Labor Organization.

Mr. Karesh holds a J.D. from the University of North Carolina and a B.S. in Industrial Engineering from North Carolina State University.


Kelly Miltion -- Environment has primarily worked for government agencies, as well.


You guys can check out the other negotiators. Bernie should do the same.

denial, obfuscation and misrepresentation is hoyt's game.

and yes, hoyt, bernie knows a fuck of a lot more about the details than YOU, hoyt.

surely, hoyt, you'll admit that bernie and schumer and other senators and reps have more access than you do.

right, hoyt?

USTR Labor Advisory Committee Members

Clayola Brown National President, A. Philip Randolph Institute (APRI)
Thomas Buffenbarger International President, International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers (IAM)
Jim Clark President, International Union of Electronic, Salaried, Machine and Furniture Workers (IUE)
Leo Gerard International President, United Steelworkers (USW)
Raymond Hair
President, American Federation of Musicians of the United States and Canada (AFM), AFL-CIO/CLC

Joseph T. Hansen President, United Food & Commercial Workers (UFCW)
Mary Kay Henry International President, Service Employees International Union (SEIU)
Ed Hill International President, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW)
James P. Hoffa General President, International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT)
Ken Howard President, Screen Actors Guild/American Federation of Television and Radio Artists (SAG-AFTRA)
Gregory Junemann International President, International Federation of Professional & Technical Engineers (IFPTE)
Richard Kline President,Union Label & Service Trades Department, AFL-CIO
Lee Moak President, International Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), AFL-CIO
Jorge Ramirez President, Chicago Federation of Labor
Cecil E. Roberts, Jr. President, United Mineworkers of America (UMWA)
Arturo Rodriguez President, United Farm Workers of America (UFW)
Sara Nelson International President, Association of Flight Atendants, AFL-CIO (CWA)
Lee Saunders President, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME)
Richard Trumka President, American Federation of Labor & Congress of Industrial Organizations (AFL-CIO)
Baldemar Velasquez President, Farm Labor Organizing Committee (FLOC)
Randi Weingarten President, American Federation of Teachers (AFT)
Dennis Williams President, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America (UAW)
Forthcoming President, Transportation and Trades Department, AFL-CIO

_____________

Those guys -- who I would vote for if they were in my area, despite their bull on this -- are playing politics.

Did you take me off Ignore?

not mean they had either access or input into the TPP.

here is a list of who did.

http://sojo.net/blogs/2012/06/29/insider-list

The American Association for Laboratory Accreditation
Africa-America Institute
Alliance of Western Milk Producers
American Butter Institute
American Farm Bureau Federation
American Farm Bureau Federation (AFBF)
American Sheep Industry Association, Inc.
American Society of Civil Engineers
American Society of Mechanical Engineers
Audubon Naturalist Society
Boston University
Brookings Institution
Business Software Alliance
Commissioner, Miami Dade County
Consumers Union
Council of Great Lakes Governors
Council of State Governments
Dept. of Economic Dev. & Commerce
Duke University
Florida Farm Bureau Federation
Georgia Agricultural Commodity Commission for Peanuts
Institute for International Economics
Land O’ Lakes, Inc.
Maine House of Representatives
Maryland Department of Agriculture
Maryland Port Administration
Mayor/ Orlando, Florida
Mayor/City of Doral, Florida
Mississippi Development Authority
National Association of Attorneys General
National Center for State Courts
National Conference of State Legislatures
National Governors Association
North Carolina Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services
North Carolina Farm Bureau
Office of Governor of State of Washington
Office of Governor/New Jersey
Princeton Healthcare, Inc.
South Carolina Farm Bureau
South Carolina State Ports Authority
State of Arizona
State of Nevanda Global Trade & Investment
Supreme Court Chief Justice/Wisconsin
Texas A&M University
Texas Department of Agriculture
Texas Farm Bureau
Texas House of Representatives
The Humane Society of the United States
Treasurer, State of Nevada
United Auto Workers
United Farmers USA, Inc.
United Food and Commercial Workers Union (UFCW)
Washington State Potato Commission


Yea, there are some big businesses on there too. I'd be willing to be a bunch of folks right here work for them.

I direct your attention to "Labor's So-Called 'Seat at the Table' at TPP Negotiations" on the AFL-CIO website.

The whole piece is very much worth reading but I'll note only the highlights. A couple specific questions are answered:

The part that I will quote in full addresses the Advisory Committees that you make so much of:



So, as to these window-dressing Advisory Committees, the old joke applies: Labor is holding the reins but they're not attached to the horses.

negotiations in a big stadium with anyone there who wants to rant. Some folks would likely get killed.

Frankly, I don't think your mind is open on this subject, so I'm not going to go do more research, the way I did with regard to your comments about labor. My admittedly limited understanding of the facts is that the statement by Bernie Sanders is completely accurate. I haven't heard of there being any denial from the USTR. Nothing you've posted has caused me to question Sanders's statement.

so I did imagine the corp types at the San Diego Round of negotiations? I think, I and the rest of the press corp have an excellent imagination.

This should remind me to go get my eyes checked

And you still need to answer why the place was crawling with SWAT armed to the teeth, INSDE the hotel.

Nationalists and xenophobes.

wrong.

They were there to keep us middling types, with cameras, recorders, and other devices away from certain floors.

Bet you didnt, unless you photoshopped them.

Must not have been a secret meeting if the "middlings" got inside the building.

nope, none of us did. In fact coming across the USTR, and the Mexican Rep was an accident. After that they took service elevators. You explain to me why. Since you think this is so open and transparent and great.

But don't feel bad, I wasnt invited either. But I don't take it personally.

and I must say, the state democratic convention had a far better media room than either Comicon, or my friends at the TTP. You'd think they would like to keep us more or less caffeinated. Just having water there and the worst wi fi on any floor was by design too. Now the starbucks downstairs did become a the de-facto news room.

Look, you are making this about how great with rainbows and farts and unicorns this is. The rest of us who actually remember how horrible the rest of them have been are going to continue to push back on you and your false narratives, and now cute, not original, just cute, personal attacks.

Ed, for clarity

are talking about. NOT A ONE.

And now I am expecting you to tell me just how angry real economists are with the administration. Go ahead, for your daily minute of hate on Robert Reich.

degree of impartiallity, go for it.

and the irony of YOU comparing anyone else at all to teabaggers in any way, is delicious. so is your bitter whinging.

And gee, why the fuck would so many of us give more weight to the words of people like Bernie Sanders and Warren and Brown and Stiglitz over anything the likes of YOU has to say?

It's the repukes and repuke like dems that support this. Congressional dems do not.

its borders and kick em all out. Natonalism, No trade with foreigners, America First and all that junk.

Sound familiar?

than dem support of it?

And then there are such organizations as the Natural Resource Defense Council, The Sierra Club, 350.org, Medecins Sans Frontiere, not to mention Unions and many other liberal public interest groups and non-profits. All opposed. Oh, and several state democratic parties like Ohio and the AG of NY state and on and on.

pretending there's an equivalency is just nuts. and less than honest.

awful. Complaining attracts new members and makes current members happy.

They are never satisfied with improvements.

Doing nothing does not advance their cause. From what I've seen so far, the TPP advances their cause, its just not good enough for them.

Please respond tohttp://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6544428

But hey hoyt, you go with your faith in heritage foundation and drumsticks like Grover norquist

Fortunately, the Brookings Institute was on the list that you and Bernie Sanders said were all corporations.

until it's been passed and it's too late.

For a long time, tariffs and trade barriers enabled an artificial situation in which workers in country A could sustain a much higher quality of life than workers in country B. now those barriers are coming down, and while we sometimes see marginal improvements in the lot of those in country B, it seems like most of what we get is an erosion of the quality of life for workers in country A, because if an employer is free to seek the cheapest sources of labor between those two labor pools it's going to be hard to compete with country B's low low prices. in order to retain some fraction of their former quality of life, country A's workers have to point to less immediate benefits, like stable infrastructures and better education. However, in the long run, workers affected by such free trade agreements will share a situation quite close to what country B's workers started with.

Naturally it's a 2-edged sword, as said company can no longer market its goods at higher prices to a relatively well-off population in country A. As labor compensation gradually equalizes between A and B, the marginal utility of imported consumer goods will drop off in country A, driving down prices and forcing capitalists to dig even deeper into production's fixed costs (labor, cost of materials, regulatory compliance) to prop up obscene levels of economic profits for the owning class. This leads to a demand among the capitalist owning class for further "free trade" deals to continue lowering expectations for compensation and regulation.

This has been a consequence not only of the "free trade" fanaticism of the last 25 years, but also of our cold war antagonism towards labor rights and unionization which started long before. Such "free trade" deals are symptomatic of weakened and nonexistent solidarity among working classes of different nations; by failing to join in the struggle to enhance the lives of workers in country B, country A's workers will now see their own circumstances deteriorate. Whether this results in some global Marxian class struggle and the eventual overthrow of the super-wealthy remains to be seen.

To fully stay opposed, depending on who can convince me with more info.

secretive. Hence, I'm against it, because I don't trust secrets like this!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/28/opinion/krugman-no-big-deal.html?_r=0

Last edited Tue Apr 21, 2015, 11:14 PM - Edit history (1)

important to our future. I applaud him.

A lot of DUers are from other nations, although I'm not sure why someone who doesn't think it's a big issue would bother to come on this thread.

If this were a good agreement, I would think the specifics would be available to the general public.

I love DU polls.