I agree with mom, were they going to just wait until the kid committed suicide or the school allowed the bullies to beat her son (senseless? to death?)

I'm really glad this is getting some coverage. I hate seeing this stories AFTER the GLBT teen has suffered real harm (or death). If the school isn't going to be proactive about keeping the students safe, they've opened themselves up for a lot of people trying to do what they can to keep themselves safe.

K&R for more exposure. Thanks Brigid for a thought-provoking OP. My daughter saw Bully last week with her school mates (her school bussed ALL of the freshman class to the local theater to see it). Its prominently on the news right now and the schools that aren't stepping up their game on helping bullied kids have no excuses anymore.

Something wrong with that?

Did you not read it?

See the word Gun in the title?

I know it was easy to miss.

Here's what our code of conduct says:

WEAPONS
Weapons, including guns, knives, mace or any items designed to inflict injury to others are prohibited on school grounds. In compliance with the “Gun Free Schools Act” (Federal) and §160.261 RSMo (Amended 1995): If it is determined that any student brought a weapon (as defined in this subparagraph) to school in violation of this policy, the student shall be suspended for a period of not less than one year or be expelled and referred to the appropriate legal authorities.

guns, plural

A weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise

A device for discharging something (e.g., insecticide, grease, or electrons) in a required direction

A gunman
- a hired gun

Used as a nickname for a ship's gunnery officer

A starting pistol used in track and field events

The firing of a piece of artillery as a salute or signal
- the boom of the one o'clock gun echoed across the river


A stun gun is not a gun.

If the school considers it a weapon, it's a weapon.

The school considering it a weapon doesn't make it a weapon any more than you calling it a gun makes it a gun.

I don't understand why you don't get that.

Just don't bring it to school.

Agreed

she finally felt empowered.

She hasn't been caught with it yet but it made a difference in how she was treated since her attitude changed. She felt like she had something to fight back with. Her parents enrolled her in a basic martial arts class and after she was pelted with tomatoes by some anonymous shithead kids from her school, she decided to carry this as well.

She's never had to use it (the bullying she endures is usually far more subtle and hideous than outright assault) but it has changed how empowered SHE feels about herself.

I'm glad it's helping.

My niece bringing a weapon to school (in her situation) - is okay.

But the boy in the OP bringing a weapon to school - not okay.

That doesn't seem consistent.

If it helps her feel better I see no problem with this. In fact I think it's a good idea.

The kid in the story pulled out his stun gun and threatened other kids. That's a completely different situation.

Even when it's against school policy? I'm not seeing your logic on this at all.

The only difference between my bullied niece and the boy in the OP is that he was surrounded by six thugs who wanted to beat him up. He was put into a position where he was so seriously threatened with real harm he pointed the stun gun into the air and fired it. My niece's bullying is different but no less threatening. She hasn't used her pepper spray but she would have if she was in that situation.

Both kids are breaking the rules because their respective schools aren't keeping them safe.

come that doesn't mean a real gun, stop the silliness

Even a toy gun gets you suspended in MO. I believe other states have similar safe schools laws.

I'm kind of guessing you're not being entirely honest in your assessment.

No where does that poster suggest that self-defense shouldn't be allowed. If you truly believe that wanting accountability for SYG cases equates to wanting self-defense to be outlawed, your thinking is so flawed I don't believe having a discussion with you is even a possibility.

(short interview with the mom) said that the school was not doing a thing to keep the young man safe, or penalize the bullies in any way. The mom seemed truly frightened for her son.

Where the hell is the world headed?

How dare this mother send her son to school with protection; he's just supposed to kill himself like a good citizen when his schoolmates decide he doesn't belong in society! Or at least give the acceptable kids the joy of beating the hell out of him. She's messing with the natural order of things in this country.

It becomes an endless cycle.

Sadly, that appears to be what the school was looking to do.

Parents who are upset often say "the school didn't do anything". But they don't know that. All they know is the bullying has not stopped. That doesn't mean the school hasn't tried to stop it.

The parent also has no right to witness what the school DID try to do. In other words, if you call me as the teacher and complain that Billy is bullying your son Bobby, I'm going to talk to Billy but not with you there as a witness. That's a private conversation between Billy, his parents (if necessary) and me. You and Bobby won't be there.

If Billy continues then to bully Bobby, Bobby may go home and report this to you. It's understandable for you to assume I hadn't done anything to stop the bullying. It's also okay for you to be angry. But just because the bullying didn't stop doesn't mean I didn't do anything.

Teachers learn to watch the bullies very closely because it's very common for them to need several interventions with the teacher and maybe even with the principal before they stop. I've also seen plenty of kids bully for years in spite of constant intervention by the school.

and student (no parents present)? That sounds awfully suspicious to me.

When your child is accused of misbehavior, would you want his teacher discussing this with him in front of other students?

with the teacher, student and parents? Just as we do with a teacher's conference discussing grades?

But you don't then report to the accuser the details of that meeting or conversation. Personally, I would let him know I took care of it. But that's all. The details are confidential.

On edit - I'm sorry. I just read your question again. It would depend on the kid. If this is a child no one has ever accused of bullying, and this is the first time, it isn't really necessary to talk to the parents. If it's a chronic or repeated problem then I would involve the parents.

It all depends on who is involved, the seriousness of the incident(s) etc. You really need to deal with this individually.

I really should stop posting on my phone. It's hard to compose meaningful text.

I appreciate that you took the time to answer. I know it has got to be rough from the teacher's perspective as well, especially when you have parents who don't work with you.

But yes, the few who are oppositional can cause a lot of stress.

One bullied kid gets hurt, maimed, or worse kills themselves. The bullies just find another target.

It's a very complicated problem. And it's important that we learn how to solve it.

So what do you suggest the mom do, short of pulling her son out of school (which just means those kids are going to find another target who may really kill themselves?)

She may not have had the luxury of being able to home-school her son or have another school option for him. Really, what should the mom have done?

We only know the bullying hasn't stopped. That doesn't mean the school hasn't done anything. It means whatever they did didn't work.

Giving a child a weapon isn't going to stop the bullying. It only turns her child into a bully.

If I were her I'd go to the superintendent. Maybe ask to speak at a school board meeting. Keep complaining until the bullying stopped.

A friend whose son was being bullied had it stopped when the high school asked the quarterback of the football team to walk her son to class. I thought that was a brilliant idea. According to my friend, the quarterback told the bullies he'd get the entire team to escort every kid they bullied if that's what it took to stop the bullying. And it stopped.

Including taking it to the superintendent. This is a top school in the western suburbs of Chicago too. They bring in the bullies for a talk and then ASSume everything's fine. But it isn't. It persists. The teachers turn a blind eye, the other students get more clever about their attacks - its awful. The hideous things that have been done to her... jesus, I'm surprised she didn't kill herself. She contemplated it, many times. Thank god my sister has enough resources for counseling. I will say my niece started carrying pepper spray the last two years to fend off some of the worse assaults.

I presume there are some schools out there who are effective in stopping bullying but I have yet to see one. Don't get me wrong proudtobelibKansan, I 110% support public schools, I help in my daughters' schools regularly. I just know that effective means to stop some of the relentless torment don't appear to be working very well and too many kids fall through the cracks.

I'm sorry to hear others do.

We take it VERY seriously. Our principal is hard on bullies too. It's pretty much an automatic suspension at our school. The exception is when kids who are bullied fight back. Then they're in trouble also.

Great way of solving the problem, there.

Mental repercussions of repeated violent assault stay with a human being for a long, long time. Take it from me.

is her last day of school ever. She doesn't have a single friend to share the day with and she wants absolutely no part of being around any of them for even a single second more than she has to.

My sister agrees. So do I. I truly wish it were different but her school years have been a living hell with teachers, administrators, support staff and other parents as part of the problem.

We as a society, and schools, MUST get a grip on how to handle this or many more of our kids will simply give up and kill themselves. My niece has effectively "given up" at this point - while she will get a high school diploma, she hates her life and states that she'll never set foot in a classroom again. It truly does have enormous ramifications that are permanent and life long.

If the child only used it to stop a pounding, then I don't consider it bullying.

When I was in elementary school this kid that claimed he knew karate would kick me every recess. One recess I had the idea of just grabbing the leg when he kicked me and lift up. It worked and he no longer bothered me again. Was I the bully in that situation or defending myself? I never sought him out or anything that is typical bully behavior.

What this kid did was completely different from what you did (which was actually pretty smart, IMO). He brought a weapon to school. Should that ever be okay? I say no. I like the idea that kids can come to school and walk down the halls without having to worry about being assaulted with a weapon.

I also don't like the fact that the kids who bullied this kid were not punished enough to stop the bullying. The school bears a responsibility here. But that still doesn't justify this kid bringing a weapon to school.

This is how things like Columbine happen.

If this were Florida, there'd be a statue built of the kid standing his ground.

Or maybe not. Florida is pretty effed up, after all.

Bake

How much does a victim have to TAKE before doing something about it? Is a bloody nose enough for you? A broken arm?

When does the victim get to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH?

Bake

Last edited Thu May 10, 2012, 04:38 PM - Edit history (1)

Truth is, I moved on to other topics.

You do have a point about the weapon (which I prefer to call a self-defense too but can be used as a weapon like a hammer). Obviously if you allow kids to bring stun guns, they will most certainly misuse them. My main point of contention was this kid in this incident isn't a bully if he only used it to fend off an assault.

I do feel like pointing out that what I did was potentially more lethal because when you lIft an extended leg straight up the first thing that will make impact (besides a hand to brace for the fall) to the ground is the head.

He is doing a dual enrollment at the local community college. 11 and a half years of bullying was enough. Schools and cops are useless. Kids are vicious. Parents are convinced their children are all precious little angels.

I'm now desperately working to get us out of the town by this summer and far away from the only kids that will accept him... because frankly it's a choice between no friends or friends that are bringing him down a very wrong path.

I'm sorry to hear this.

If he can drop 30 pounds he is going to join the af nat guard like his brother. I'm thinking boot camp and tech school might do wonders for his self esteem and give him a real sense of accomplishment.

I dropped out in 10th grade & got my GED immediately not because of failure in school but because I was behind in credits due to them not transferring when I moved 2 times from 9-10 grades. Hanging out w/ adults and working jobs was refreshing from the HS environment. However, when I joined the Army, Basic Training & regular Army in general was an extension of high school. I think it is because of a lot of fresh out of high school adults because there was bullying, teasing, and a rumor mill. I personally hated it but there was things I liked about it but the HS atmosphere is there. If it is National Guard, that could be better since he'll work & live w/ civilians when he isn't deployed or on weekends.

I hate that schools either really ARE powerless to help these kids or they are willfully blind to the problems so they can feign ignorance when the shit hits the fan.

Its just a damn shame. I hope you and your son can find peace in a different community.

I blame the parents of these bullies who never taught their children how important being good to other people is for society. Bullies often breed more bullies.

Thank you for the hug! We are going to move close to my older son's college so he, his girlfriend and another friend can live off campus with me and save on dorm fees and the younger one wants to follow in his brothers foot steps.

I'll have a long commute for a while, but I plan to go to community college myself

My niece is a wreck at this stage. She's been bullied her entire school career and I'm not sure she's in nearly as good mental shape as your son. My sister's just grateful she's going to graduate and didn't kill herself but her grades are terrible. She HATES school with a passion - there's no way she'll ever go to another class ever. She's completely scarred.

I agree 110% that the schools sometimes just don't know what to do. The bullying can be very insidious, very clever, and very, very difficult to track. Who put the used tampons in her lunch bag? Who tripped her so she broke her arm in gym? Who lobbed rotten tomatoes at her over the hedge (got in her contacts so she was painfully blinded on that one)? Only another parent whose lived it first hand can understand.

I really gotta say, that mom in the OP probably was at her wits end. My niece started carrying pepper spray 2 years ago. Completely against the school rules but I have no idea what else she could have done. It's probably been the most "empowering" action she's ever taken and was the key to getting her to graduation, and maybe kept her alive.

There are no easy answers here....

in the neighborhood. In those situations, I definitely blame the parents.

Ignoring bullies doesn't work. In fact if you are made a target early on, there is almost nothing that can change things. Kids are vicious.

We need to clamp down harder and we need to erase this attitude that kids are just being kids. Sadly, we still hear that excuse too often.

then you let it go.

Seems fine to me. The bully can choose to continue it or he can end it.

That's a choice you would be making in this situation.

it is a choice.

One thing that's obvious is that doing nothing doesn't end the problem either.

A lot of parents do that, especially if there are obvious physical injuries. That's assault.

Just because a law/rule exists, it is not automatically just. This would be a great opportunity for my son to learn to do what is right and suffer the consequences from an ignorant authority.

If I was still in high school, it would be no contest. I'd be more than happy to take a suspension, detention or even an expulsion in exchange for giving a bullying piece of shit the beating he deserves.

Are any of the people against self-defense going to give an alternative to violence? I have yet to see one that works. The teachers don't do shit, the principals don't do shit, the cops don't do shit, the bullies keep it up day after day after day after day. What's a kid supposed to do? Commit suicide? That's what some choose.

Bullying is psychological and physical abuse. That kills. And bullied children have a right to force the bully to stop by any means necessary. Including violence. Including weapons to even the odds.

Yes. I advocate violence against bullies. Hit the alert button, get me PPR'd, I don't care.

Because nothing else works. Domination and force are the only things a bully understands, and that means the only way to get a bully to stop is to damage him. You have to make the bully fear you enough to stop, because that's the only way to get through to him.

Give me an alternative that works if you don't like my advice. If you can.

If I was the parent in this situation, I'd file a police report. Assault is a crime in all 50 states. That's what my friend did when her son was bullied. She also got a restraining order. The police went to the school to interview kids who had witnessed the bullying, and the judge sent a copy of the restraining order to the principal. IMMEDIATELY, the school called my friend and her husband in and they had a long sit down where they explored several alternatives. The school counselor suggested they ask the quarterback of the football team to walk the kid being bullied to class. That stopped the bullying. The football player also told the bullies he would get the entire team to escort every bullied child in the school if necessary. Last report was the bullies had stopped.

The problem with sending your child to school with a weapon is that you then risk your child being placed on a long term suspension or even permanently expelled. In my district, it's a year suspension. Plus you haven't stopped the bullies. They'll just find another child to bully. Trust me, I understand this mother's frustration. But she really hasn't helped her child. He loses and the bullies won because they chased him away. And they've probably already moved on to their next victim. I think we would all like to see a solution where the bullies are held accountable, the bullying stops and all the kids still get an education.

They just told him to stop acting gay - blaming the victim.

What do you do when the authorities refuse to act? You as a teacher do act, and I applaud you for that, but there are so many teachers in so many schools who will sit and watch, and do absolutely nothing when it's happening right in front of them.

I don't see that in the story at the link - that he went to the cops and they didn't do anything.

She let him know she is willing to stand up for him no matter what.

She showed him she is willing to go through great lengths to try to protect him.

She is showing him that she loves him unconditionally, no matter what other people think or say.

She is teaching him to stand up to authority when authority is wrong.

She is publicizing the issue and showing her son she will go public - to stick her neck out to help him and other kids.

She is improving the school system by bringing to light their massive incompetence.

That mother SAVED her child. He probably wouldn't be around if his mother was indifferent or was like my mother and didn't like to 'make waves'. Every child should be so lucky as to have a mom like that.

I don't call that a victory.

I admire her for standing up and contacting the media. That couldn't have been an easy decision. But I disagree with her decision to give her son a weapon.

as someone who had parents that would have blamed me for being the victim, I admire that mother. Sure, her son's kicked out of that school but it honestly is not the worst thing that could happen to him. He will find another school (or be homeschooled, there are so many online options now) and he will ALWAYS know his mother loves him unconditionally. THAT is more important to any child than whether or not he gets kicked out of school.

And the bullies won't be bullying anymore, not with this kind of attention.

As for the whole weapon thing - I agree, I'd have pulled my kid out of school before giving him a weapon, but for people who really believe that a child must be in school to get a decent education, and that education is everything, I can see the dilemma.

He may have to stay at home though because you usually can't enroll in another school after being expelled. There's a list of expelled kids in my state and even private schools check it before enrolling new students.

He's probably better off at home for now anyway.

I disagree the bullies will stop bullying. I think they'll just find a new victim. Of course, the school could take this all more seriously and work with the bullies to stop their bullying behavior, but so far, I don't see anything that has happened that will stop them. As for the attention, the bullies will thrive on it. I think they'll see that as permission to bully. After all, nothing happened to THEM.

That school clearly chose to blame the victim instead of dealing with the bullies.

Maybe getting kicked out of that Lord of the Flies situation is a blessing for this kid.

Are there other schools in the area? Where I used to live, the alternative school in the area was actually quite good.

Like I said, sometimes the punishment is worth it. I made that decision myself when I was in school - a bully was spitting in my shoes every single day in the gym locker room, and I got suspended for a couple days when I finally gave him the right-hook he was asking for. TOTALLY WORTH IT!

Unless if you're Jackie Chan in the movies, it's not possible.

or grind up glass in his food.

/may have watched too much Oz as a kid.

Don't try to fight when it's six-on-one.

Wait until the bullies separate, stalk one and smash him in the back of the head with a baseball bat.

Many years experience working with kids. I've probably seen and dealt with more bullying than anyone in this thread.

I was actually being kind suggesting you don't know the definition. The other conclusion I can draw is far less charitable.

I take it you don't know much about bullying? When kids fight back, that's bullying. Yes, it happens a lot. Kids who are bullied become bullies. And no, it doesn't really solve anything. This kid in the story got himself kicked out of school. And the bullies will just move on to a new victim. I don't see that as a good solution at all.

Schools clearly (especially this one in the story) need to do more to address bullying. It's a growing problem. If it was solved by fighting back, it wouldn't be a problem.

Here are a couple good articles about bullying and bullies who were bullied:

http://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2010/07/bully-victim.aspx

http://www.askmen.com/entertainment/special_feature_3700/3762_how-do-bullies-become-bullies.html

When kids fight back, that's bullying

We're done here.

Seems to me your definitions are a bit askew. Six people encircled the kid, threatening to beat him. They sought him out for the purpose of intimidating. While I agree that having kids at school with stun guns is not a good idea, this was a total failure on the school's part (as evidenced by the administrator's "kids will be kids" response). How you can call what this kid did -- even if you generally disapprove of kids carrying stun guns, as I certainly do -- "bullying" is just beyond comprehension!

Reverse the roles and put the stun gun in the bully's hand. What would you want the school to do?

I'm dealing in what actually happened here.

A threat is not necessarily, by definition, "bullying." And I question whether one can claim that shooting a stun gun in the air even constitutes a threat. It is an intimidating gesture, to be sure, but the intent of the intimidation was preservation of one's own safety. If someone breaks into your home and is menacing you, there is no law enforcement agency in the country that would claim shooting a gun in the air constitutes a "threat."

What really happened here is a kid used a stun gun to intimidate another kid (kids). Currently, that's against this school's rules.

If these kids approach him on the street - off of school grounds - and he pulls out his stun gun to intimidate them, then local and state laws would apply (if there are any).

... "If you hit me, I'll hit you back." Would that likewise have constituted "bullying?" I'm sorry, but once again I think your definition of "bullying" is way off.

If we hear kids threatening to hit each other, school policy requires us to intervene.

I'm sorry you don't agree with my definition of bullying. I do my best every day to prevent it and can report it doesn't happen often with my students. I make building a safe respectful community a priority and insist my kids treat each other respectfully. So I really don't deal with a lot of bullying in my classroom. I consider that a success so how you define bullying is really not relevant to my real life experience. Sorry.

... But part of the problem here is school administrators who, in the interest of "zero tolerance," exercise zero intelligence in tbeir administration of policies. By expelling the kid who was the victim of bullying, and who was merely trying to defend himself (even if his method was against policy), the school officials (a) fail to come to grips with their own colossal failure, and (b) wittingly or not, give a green light to other bullies. This is sheer idiocy.

They expelled him for the weapon.

I definitely agree about administrators. And zero tolerance. It's ridiculous. Kids are individuals who need to be dealt with individually, with consequences that fit both the misbehavior and the child. That varies from one child to another. And that is an argument many of us made when zero tolerance policies and state laws were initially proposed.

I can also see bullying getting even worse at this particular school. The administrators had an opportunity and they failed. Miserably. If they had done the right thing from the beginning, this kid wouldn't have thought he needed to bring a weapon to school and everyone would be getting an education in a safe environment.

It's a sad story all around.

... would be if the school officials who failed to act to protect this kid likewise lost their jobs.

What do you think the school should do in that situation? Clear the halls and let the kids have at it?

.... 99% of bullies when confronted with a taste of their own medicine turn tail and run.

If her actions caused her to go in front of a jury, and I was on it, she'd be acquitted of all charges.

Schools need to get a clue and get with the program.

Guy tries to defend himself when the school refuses to - expulsion.

School administrators in a nutshell. If you told them to open a locked door to let you in, they would unscrew the hinges and break it down.

good for the kid, good for the mom. now to look up more info in the indy papers....
6 people circling me....nope, not a good thing. also time for karate/martial arts classes maybe.

the question.....since the mother had notified the school, the principal blamed the young man who wound up carrying the stun gun....why wasn't some school admin/security staff walking that kid to classes or carefully/ pointed loitering in the halls? and i'm not asking in snark....if a parent tells you specifically there is a problem, why wouldn't it be addressed ( too naieve?...my 1970s high school, urban/racially charged had 2 bouncers for drugs and smoking so i assumed all urban schools have security)

by modifying the son's behavior:

Young is known as a flamboyant dresser and Larry Yarrell, the Tech principal, said school staff had been trying to get him to "tone down" his accessories.

the principal bears responsibility too, and should initiate a zero tolerance policy for bullying.

idea that any kind of threatening gesture/image/expression is a threat of violence and must be treated as credible no matter the source or circumstances around them often resulting in kids being expelled.

Yet we are still in the early stages of dealing with bullying and seemingly this school/administrators/etc thought they could fix it by having this young man stop acting so 'flamboyant' much like telling women to stop dressing so sexy so they won't get raped classic blame the victim.

Where were these administrators on the taunting/threatening/bullying of this student, regardless of how he acted, provided he wasn't taunting these kids?

Should he have brought a stun gun to school, probably not but the school should have stepped in to punish those other kids and make it clear that kind of behavior isn't tolerated the SAME way so many schools overreact and clamp down on any kind of gun references with ZERO tolerance.

... I support this kid, and anti-bullying measures, but zero-tolerance policies have resulted in colossal stupidity on the part of administrators across the country.

Zero-tolerance policies are completely brain-damaged.

Zero-tolerance was devised as an excuse to not have to use judgment. And as a result, the kid who brings a paring knife to cooking class to use only on food gets expelled, while the little psychopath beating up other students is ignored because he's on the football team.

Teachers and administrators should be given discretion to use their judgments in these kinds of situations, and they should be expected to use it!

schools need to have a zero tolerance for bullying or parents just might decide to arm their kids with real guns.

They hurt, but they usually won't really damage someone.

He didn't hurt anyone. He just protected himself. That principal should be fired. The school system should be sued for creating a hostile environment for the kids and doing nothing to stop bullying.

And, no, telling the gay kid to stop wearing what he wants to wear is not handling the bullying at all. It is blaming the one who was being bullied.

damages for failing to protect him. They want to be hardasses about the rules? Fine. The school also broke the rules by failing to protect him. They need to pay. Then the mom can move to NYC and the kid can go to school in an area more accepting of the LGBT community.

I was a 16 year old girl and threatened by this girl that she would kick my ass. She was in my math class and I dreaded going to that class everyday. The teachers and school really did nothing. I threatened to have my older brother and his friends go after her. It was the only thing that worked and she backed off. To this day I have no idea why she picked on me but she did it to some of the younger girls in high school.
This was the 90's. It is sad that bullying is even worse now. Schools really need a wake up call, if they haven't gotten one already. I understand the mother felt helpless. Sometimes the only thing a parent can do is just take the kid and go to a different school.