and i believe it too

him no matter what, as that happens often here.

As TPA and TPP are nightmares, it is important for us to stand up and say so.

But the last person I am going to tolerate telling me about it is someone who attacks Obama no matter what, had enough of that for two lifetimes.

Not talking about you, but they are around here.

posted the link.

Anyways, I'll go read it now. Thanks.

I want to know also!

or virtually anything cali is posting...



So completely NOT surprised...

But a happy kickity kick for your thread again...

too busy etc.

Now it's because you don't want to.

Ok. Gotcha. It's all clear now.

rebutted.

board to play your little stupid "gotcha" games.

I hope that includes me. I would consider it a fucking badge of honor.

posted.. that'd be great, CTD.

when I clicked on reply I'd find a link.

the background of this but this is one of the reasons why he may be fighting for the TPP.

I also would like to trust him but if congress cannot see it and discuss it before the TPA then we have no chance for any input.

but they aren't allowed to take notes, discuss it, or allow aides with expertise in their respective areas to see it or know about the contents.

A document on the order of 15,000 pages that a Congress member has to get through without notes, discussion, explanations or assistance (because not all of them are economic experts, or big pharma experts, or have the necessary understanding of how multinational corporations will mediate, or environmental ramifications etc etc)...

...in other words, a document so vast and complicated that a single Congress member is literally unable to wade through alone and unassisted.

So yeah, they CAN read it now but in reality, it's a near impossible task.

So a person like Senator Warren has gone in and read some relevant sections on the banking, trade mediation etc. plus she's read some of the leaked drafts, and come to her conclusions based on the info she's gleaned so far.

before voting up and down.

But the multinationals have had free access, and a hand in writing it, since day one. 10 years to hide dog knows what under 15,000 pages of legalese.

Plus only those aides of Congress members who serve on either the Senate Finance Committee or the House Ways and Means Committee are allowed If they have the "proper" security clearance.

How many people is that to wade through this behemoth?

It's not Bernie Sanders' staff that's for sure, msanthrope (sic).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/05/bernie-sanders-michael-froman-tpp_n_6419874.html

1. The Congress person has to have enough money to employ numerous high security staffers - sorry but that's bullshit. The Trade Commission is making this a very high bar.

2. The Congress member must also be there. Exactly how many hours in a day do you expect them to allocate to this along with their other tasks?

They have staff and aides to help them with stuff like this. Not to be babysat by the Congress person while they read thousands of pages.

Whatever point you think you made with linking that thread only serves to weaken your position.

Typical. This is so not worth the effort.

as I have disagreed with him on a number of issues. I did not know that I had to choose between being an Obama supporter and a TPP supporter.

did).

Ask yourself this, Obama has advocated for an increase in the minimum wage, even addressing it in the State of the Union address why isn't it law? HINT: Because Sherrod Brown and other haven't passed the legislation.

http://nation.time.com/2013/11/07/obama-supports-10-minimum-wage/

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/08/business/10-minimum-wage-proposal-has-obamas-backing.html?_r=0

The fact is, Obama has advocated for the items Brown cited. What hasn't happened is Congress hasn't passed laws supporting those issues. That falls squarely on the likes of Brown, Warren and Sanders.

The real reason the issue of the TPP is gaining so much coverage is because Democrats are fighting Democrats and the corporate media and its right wing supporters are making it highly visible.

Also, I dispute some claims by the left that fast track is what they claim. I don't believe for one second that a trade agreement between 12 countries with 28 working committees can sustain amendments from each countries parliment. Yes, it will be a take it or leave it bill, but some things have to happen that way. Actually, more legislation should happen that way. The very notion that Congress should be allowed to offer amendments and send the amended legislation back to the other 12 countries for approval is absurd. It has taken almost 8 years to get this far, allowing congressional amendments is absurd.

I also don't agree with those on the left who are making a huge deal of the "secrecy". Many of us on the left recognize the need for Obama to negotiate with Iran in secret, AIPAC and Israel would have done anything to derail the process (and would likely have succeeded). Same goes with the countries who don't meet the labor and environmental standards to join the TPP (think China). The various affected elements and trade representatives got together and found common ground on the important issues. Having lobbyists trying to derail elements they didn't like would have tanked the deal. There was a need to negotiate in secret, and I understand that, but the bill itself is not secret. It will be put before Congress and they have 30 days to hear testimony, debate and decide on the deal. Same with the American public.

I understand the idea behind TPP and I support it. To make American jobs return to our shores, it has to become more expensive to keep jobs overseas. The reason it is cheaper overseas is because: no regulation, no patent protection, lower labor standards and pay and a country's internal economics and things like local cost of living.
The TPP attempts to bring other countries up to the standards for those things we have here in the US. Countries have to abide by patent protection (making goods more expensive), they have to have certain environmental protection (making goods more expensive), they have to allow unionization and certain worker protections (making goods more expensive). There are 2 ways to compete with low cost countries, lower ourselves to their standards or rise them to ours. It is pretty clear which path is the best.

The 2 trade agreements will include 2/32 of the world economy. Is the plan to isolate China? Probably, and I support it 100%. China isn't playing by the rules the rest of the countries are. Time to force them to change.

done while he's complaining about the President.

Say: "He wouldn't do this if it isn't good for the people" supporters out here factually countering the articles by Reputable Counters in Dem Party, Public Citizen, Left Leaning Economic Experts, and our own Dem Senators and Representatives who are describing a Huge Multi-National Trade Deal that is being negotiated in SECRET which they have little ability to view or even take notes from those who can view it?

The "Fast Track" vote that Obama wants means that Congress CANNOT AMEND OR CHANGE anything in TPP after the fact. It means that "TPP" will be passed without timely overview and Public Comment because "Fast Track" means Congress has given away its authority to make any changes.

How can this be seen as Good for the American People when a President has total control over a Deal Written by Corporations and other Special Interests who don't care about Working People ....just themselves.

If it's so Great then let them get their people out there telling us WHY and not trashing those who Question it from their Very Own Democratic Party and Dem Congress in both House and Senate.

And, WHY is this the ONLY ISSUE that Repubs support him on....after all this time fighting him tooth and nail to destroy his Presidency. But...oh no.... TPP is favored by Repubs. Can't blame this one on DINO DEMS alone!

Good post.

rebuttal.

But the idea that "Obama supporters" need to be called out, presumably by "Obama NON supporters" on a Dem web site is just about the most hilarious, damning thing I've seen on this web site this month.

It would be far more effective if others also followed the leads of organized labor and environmental groups. I've been involved in trade politics as well as major negotiations my entire life. Organized Labor is used to a process that has a timeline.
While it serves some agendas to wail on Obama right here and now, it would not demonstrate good faith to do so, and that would reduce the righteousness of the criticism when the time comes for it.

Having lots of affected passion about issues that very recently were not even on your radar is common enough and great fun, but just steaming and puffing does not really get the biscuit baked.

his EOs.. and.. ".. taken unprecedented action to build the foundation for a clean energy economy, tackle the issue of climate change, and protect our environment."

https://www.whitehouse.gov/energy/our-environment



the way President Obama is always fighting for Women's Rights..



And, Gay Rights.. He's done more than any other President on Gay Rights..

On Gay Rights, Obama Has Built a Legacy

http://www.nationaljournal.com/white-house/on-gay-rights-obama-has-built-a-legacy-20140617

As far as fighting hard for this.. it's something else he believes in that would be good for our country.

All these accomplishments don't just magically appear. No Senator Brown is not right.

Yeah, and I don't read the OP you're referring to either.

President was and has been over TPP, it struck me that I never saw him as worked up about a public option for healthcare.

Don't get me wrong, I know this president has accomplished some major things. I'm simply struck by his boosting for TPP and seeming lack of enthusiasm/panic over other issues already mentioned in WillyT's thread. If you didn't read it, then you probably haven't seen those examples where some of us feel he didn't fight like he's doing for TPP.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner but I was out drinking beer from yesterday afternoon until after midnight this morning and I've only just woken up moments ago.

didn't. This board doesn't see everything behind the scenes.. He had to fight the purist left and the rwankers on that too. If you don't think he wanted ACA as much as TPP then.. I can't help you.

You know this board doesn't rule the President.. so what if willyt or anyone makes a thread and calls out President Obama with their Opinion. I don't really care. It's not that big a deal to me. They're going to fucking rage over everything.. they have been for 7 years.

Why are we to assume that?

He also fights real hard for charter schools.