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CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 05:00 PM Apr 2015

The Rape of Persephone by Gianlorenzo Bernini

Last edited Mon Apr 27, 2015, 08:21 AM - Edit history (1)

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The Rape of Persephone. Gianlorenzo Bernini. 1621. Galleria Borghese. Rome.

The rape --- or abduction, as the word rape was defined in 17th century in Rome -- in ancient myth was a popular theme, among others, in its time. And Gianlorenzo Bernini was a man of his time. As a visual artist Bernini was up against the older (by 27 years) and very famous fellow Rome artist, Caravaggio. He had to make a name for himself all of his own, against that competition.

Bernini did it in sculpture. And with high drama to enact the old myth that Hades, the god of the underworld, wanted Persephone, goddess of flowers, to be his wife and queen. When she is out among her flowers, he erupts from the underworld to carry her forcefully down to his kingdom.

We see in this sculpture the moment he grabs her. Persephone’s hand smashes into Hades’s head, causing him to flinch and his head to reel back from the blow. The muscles in the calf of his flexed leg bulge as she struggles to free herself. He is determined to carry her off, but she will not go without a fight.

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The artist has presented this Greek/Roman god of the underworld as a large violent hulk, in dramatic contrast to the lovely goddess of flowers, daughter of Demeter (goddess of the harvest). According to the sad myth Demeter is so grief stricken that she goes to earth looking for her daughter. She goes to Zeus asking for his help to get Persephone back, threatening to withhold all vegetation from the earth. Persephone is then returned, but since she has eaten the forbidden pomegranate seeds given to her by Hades while she was in the underworld, she will have to spend three months of each year with him. Demeter inflicts barrenness upon the earth during the time she is gone. This is the ancient Greek/Roman myth explaining the season of winter.

Bernini captures the terror of this girl in a kind of lurid beauty. There is the rush upon seeing this huge sculpture in its entirety, experiencing the girl’s sheer panic and Hades’ cruelty, with Cerberus, his middle head in full open mouthed snarl at their feet. In the Borghese Gallery, an ornate 18th century house museum in Rome, it is a stunning masterpiece meant to be walked around and viewed from every angle. Paired with Bernini’s “Apollo and Daphne” in the same gallery it is a one-two punch at your senses.

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“Apollo and Daphne,” 1622-1625.

Both sculptures are, in the Hollywood lingo, “boffo.” They kill. And Baroque artists knew all about that. Certainly Bernini, who was also an actor and director in the burgeoning popular theater and opera which flourished in 17th century Rome, was quite an enthusiast. He knew the staged lighting of his day and theatrical presentation. Fare la bella figura, indeed.
Bernini does it exceptionally well in his depiction of Hades’ hands on his prey. A viewer cannot believe they are making that impression on stone...Bernini has succeeded in making her flesh, carved in cold, hard marble, seem elastic as Hades’ fingers dig into her thigh and around her waist...an incredible feat of artistry.

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In his “Power of Art" series Simon Schama makes reference to Bernini’s “silky nudes” --women’s bodies the sculptor has made lush and fluid and smooth in their marble. In this work her gesture is physically intense but delicate. In contrast, there is the pulsing muscularity of Hades’ arms and back, buttocks and his stalking feet as he makes his attack.

Bernini’s use of contrapposto (or counterpose) -- e.g. the classic pose of Michelangelo’s David -- is riveting. But here not one, but two, subjects of the sculpture are intricately involved, Hades and Persephone, twisting and turning. Bernini also employs the upward spiral pose known as La Figura Serpentinata of the Mannerist period (after High Renaissance and before Baroque) sculptor, Giambologna, who preceded Bernini by nearly 40 years.

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Rape of the Sabine Women. Giambologna. 1583. Loggia dei Lanzi. Florence.

By the late 16th century the center of Italian art had left Florence and moved to Rome. Caravaggio and Bernini, along with the architect Borromini, were transforming the artistic and architectural appearance of the Eternal City into the Baroque style that we can still see today.

The myth of Persephone is not lost on our sensibilities in our own time. Two modern, prominent women poets have pondered deeply about this myth. Rita Dove writes in “Persephone, Falling”

One narcissus among the ordinary beautiful
flowers, one unlike all the others! She pulled,
stooped to pull harder—
when, sprung out of the earth
on his glittering terrible
carriage, he claimed his due.
It is finished. No one heard her.
No one! She had strayed from the herd.

(Remember: go straight to school.
This is important, stop fooling around!
Don’t answer to strangers. Stick
with your playmates. Keep your eyes down.)
This is how easily the pit
opens. This is how one foot sinks into the ground.

In a longer poem entitled “A Myth of Devotion”, Louise Gluck traces Hades’ plotting and carrying out the kidnapping of Persephone, ending with the lines

A soft light rising above the level meadow,
behind the bed. He takes her in his arms.
He wants to say I love you, nothing can hurt you

but he thinks
this is a lie, so he says in the end
you're dead, nothing can hurt you
which seems to him
a more promising beginning, more true.


140 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Rape of Persephone by Gianlorenzo Bernini (Original Post) CTyankee Apr 2015 OP
Feedback, anyone? CTyankee Apr 2015 #1
Marble/rock/whatever looking like flesh n/t UTUSN Apr 2015 #71
It's wonderful...and thanks for posting..... KoKo Apr 2015 #130
The way that the marble looks like silky warm flesh is just incredible. djean111 Apr 2015 #2
My pleasure. So glad you like this. It was quite a marvel to me, too. CTyankee Apr 2015 #3
I can't stop looking at it. I think the way you concentrate on just one work of art at a time djean111 Apr 2015 #6
Thanks for the info and your kind remarks... CTyankee Apr 2015 #8
That's why they are called the Old Masters. hifiguy Apr 2015 #29
Yeah, Bernini was pretty much untouchable in terms of competition... CTyankee Apr 2015 #34
Yet somehow today we are expected to accord the same degree of hifiguy Apr 2015 #39
Um, no. CTyankee Apr 2015 #43
it is amazing Liberal_in_LA Apr 2015 #78
K&R Solly Mack Apr 2015 #4
thanks for posting Snow Leopard Apr 2015 #5
Well, I don't think the David will not be the top sculpture in the world soon but Bernini is CTyankee Apr 2015 #13
These are great , but I disagree . .. PosterChild Apr 2015 #57
I don't mean to denigrate David Snow Leopard Apr 2015 #65
Glad you had the opportunity to... PosterChild Apr 2015 #94
In person they are as amazing as you would imagine and more stevenleser Apr 2015 #140
I don't think that I have ever seen sculpture brer cat Apr 2015 #7
I know. It is the utter theatricality of the early Baroque. Their "thing" as it were. CTyankee Apr 2015 #11
I always enjoy these, CT awoke_in_2003 Apr 2015 #9
Yeah, I need a break from the BS too. Art research just gives me a lift... CTyankee Apr 2015 #12
I will be on the lookout awoke_in_2003 Apr 2015 #14
Oh, the Kimbell is a great museum! Lucky you... CTyankee Apr 2015 #15
Yep, little Fort Worth awoke_in_2003 Apr 2015 #16
Have fun, yank, elleng Apr 2015 #22
Well, who knows what I'll find when I get to to MoMA and see the thing in reality... CTyankee Apr 2015 #28
Right, and nice time to be in the city! elleng Apr 2015 #31
I know exactly how you feel! The BS and all that - and personally, what went into making calimary Apr 2015 #127
Hey! good luck to you and your son and his band...I have a son in a band and I know CTyankee Apr 2015 #128
K&R! Sherman A1 Apr 2015 #10
I'll see your Rita Dove and raise you Edna St. Vincent Millay malthaussen Apr 2015 #17
that movie is a faint memory of mine...I think we all moved on from that thing... CTyankee Apr 2015 #30
You're in danger of receiving my 25 cent lecture on Strength to answer that. malthaussen Apr 2015 #66
um, ok. does this apply to brute strength vs. lesser strength? CTyankee Apr 2015 #67
Not really. malthaussen Apr 2015 #87
I''d like to think that we are moving past that paradigm, but it is a slow process... CTyankee Apr 2015 #88
As I was about to add... malthaussen Apr 2015 #89
I use those terms as applied to this sculpture, which demonstrates them nonverbally and CTyankee Apr 2015 #91
That poem about undid me, when I think of what I wrote during my own daughter's wild years... Hekate Apr 2015 #74
In Bel Kaufman's novel Up the Down Staircase, malthaussen Apr 2015 #90
Someone who loves that girl, that's for sure Hekate Apr 2015 #110
What a stunning presentation. pangaia Apr 2015 #18
Oh, pangaia, thank you...I was looking for your feedback and your thoughts... CTyankee Apr 2015 #23
I find it interesting that I never thought pangaia Apr 2015 #73
Go to youtube and watch the 4 part series on Bernini. The music accompanying CTyankee Apr 2015 #85
Oh, your mention of "trouser role" made me flash back to "Voi che sapete" with CTyankee Apr 2015 #86
Ah ha ! von Stade.... pangaia Apr 2015 #92
Let me know if you are planning to visit Florence...I did an art intensive there in 2010... CTyankee Apr 2015 #93
That would be GREAT 'secret' info to have. pangaia Apr 2015 #95
I have not been to the MET in years...I really should and while I am uptown I could go see CTyankee Apr 2015 #98
Oh, they are not "secret" really. They are just not usually on the average tourist's radar screen... CTyankee Apr 2015 #99
They were secrets to me. pangaia Apr 2015 #133
You could probably spend months and months in Florence and not go to the same CTyankee Apr 2015 #135
I saw her sing that at the Met. longship Apr 2015 #131
thanks. I just checked it this morning and a strange thing happened... CTyankee Apr 2015 #134
Just perfect! Canoe52 Apr 2015 #19
You are so welcome, Canoe52! CTyankee Apr 2015 #26
UTTERLY AMAZING, yank! elleng Apr 2015 #20
Hey, Ellen! Nice to see you here and glad you like the posting... CTyankee Apr 2015 #24
Got back here late, yank, elleng Apr 2015 #27
If you missed the Borghese Gallery you didn't see it...not in the Vatican... CTyankee Apr 2015 #32
I think I got to the Borghese during my college days, elleng Apr 2015 #33
good for you! Sometimes we don't have a second chance after college days... CTyankee Apr 2015 #40
Right, and fortunately I've been back a few times. elleng Apr 2015 #42
Spectacular! 2naSalit Apr 2015 #21
The Host of Seraphim seveneyes Apr 2015 #25
The first thing I noticed was his fingers digging into her skin LittleBlue Apr 2015 #35
I know. I showed this exact photo to my husband and he was unbelieving that it could CTyankee Apr 2015 #36
Me too. nt msanthrope Apr 2015 #38
Oh, wow, these are wonderful sculptures! CaliforniaPeggy Apr 2015 #37
Hey, Peggy, I was hoping you would stop by...thanks so much and glad you saw them. CTyankee Apr 2015 #51
Masterpieces in DU! fadedrose Apr 2015 #41
Thank you and please come back! I love doing these essays...it is my fun and joy... CTyankee Apr 2015 #46
I think of this work every time I open a pomegranate. displacedtexan Apr 2015 #44
It's weird. I think because it has layers of interpretation...there is Demeter and her CTyankee Apr 2015 #54
Speaking of early Baroque art, you might appreciate this: The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #45
Yes, that is Caravaggio's "Judith Beheading Holofernes." CTyankee Apr 2015 #48
It doesn't seem like the best choice to promote the product. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #49
interesting comparison with Caravaggio's contemporary, a woman... CTyankee Apr 2015 #50
Gentileschi's Judith gets right into it The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #52
I made a big point in my Master's paper about HER painting vs. HIS... CTyankee Apr 2015 #53
That makes sense. Her Judith looks almost vengeful. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #55
Yep. That was exactly MY reaction too... CTyankee Apr 2015 #56
The whole early Baroque period in the arts is fascinating. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #47
I am not the best fan on Monteverdi...hubby was once a cello major in college so we CTyankee Apr 2015 #58
The early Baroque is much more interesting, IMO. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #60
The music is lovely but el greco leaves me cold... CTyankee Apr 2015 #62
El Greco was an idiosyncratic Mannerist. The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #64
That's a madrigal, is it? It's light years away from "Flora Gave Me Fairest Flowers"! Hekate Apr 2015 #75
The Italian madrigals were more complex and used more serious texts The Velveteen Ocelot Apr 2015 #77
I last learned madrigals in high school many decades ago.... Hekate Apr 2015 #80
Stone becomes flesh becomes stone...What a staggering feat. Hekate Apr 2015 #59
That was exquisite. Thank you. CTyankee Apr 2015 #61
wonderful post...more tomorrow when I have worked what you have said thru my head... CTyankee Apr 2015 #63
kick blogslut Apr 2015 #68
Borghese Gallery LynnTTT Apr 2015 #69
I go to Europe once a year and need to get back to Rome... CTyankee Apr 2015 #83
Thank you for this.. virgdem Apr 2015 #70
Thank you for these! As someone who has spent my entire life working with my hands OffWithTheirHeads Apr 2015 #72
looks like truck tires elehhhhna Apr 2015 #76
Other Bernini things I like. kwassa Apr 2015 #79
Amazing! romanic Apr 2015 #82
Oh yes, that Baldachinno in the Vatican is quite ornate... CTyankee Apr 2015 #84
K&R!!!!!!!!!!! burrowowl Apr 2015 #81
The story of Persephone ismnotwasm Apr 2015 #96
Hmm. The Greeks and Romans used it to explain the season of winter, but there are feminist analyses CTyankee Apr 2015 #100
It's honest art ismnotwasm Apr 2015 #102
Absolutely stunning, though I must admit, hughee99 Apr 2015 #97
I'm afraid you've got me there...not sure exactly what you mean... CTyankee Apr 2015 #101
This message was self-deleted by its author hughee99 Apr 2015 #103
If anyone dared to do that they would never hear the end of it from me! CTyankee Apr 2015 #104
I agree, and if you'd like, I can remove my posts. hughee99 Apr 2015 #105
Of course you weren't. n/t JTFrog Apr 2015 #107
Funny that I offered to pull my post before you decided to chip in your 2 cents. hughee99 Apr 2015 #108
Funny that you posted it at all. n/t JTFrog Apr 2015 #109
Really, in my first post, I intentionally didn't post hughee99 Apr 2015 #111
Yea, because I took the bait. JTFrog Apr 2015 #112
They wouldn't dare. JTFrog Apr 2015 #106
Hey, it's all good... CTyankee Apr 2015 #114
I love your art threads. JTFrog Apr 2015 #119
OK, then my challenge to you is to find them in books and online. CTyankee Apr 2015 #120
I'll give it a go! n/t JTFrog Apr 2015 #123
I really want to see these (and others) in real life ismnotwasm Apr 2015 #113
Bernini was an undisputed master. Beacool Apr 2015 #115
Well, the original title IS the title. To change it is to obliterate its historical accuracy. CTyankee Apr 2015 #116
I'm an avid reader of history. Beacool Apr 2015 #117
Have you ever been to Florence? If not, you really should try to go. CTyankee Apr 2015 #118
Thanks for the link. Beacool Apr 2015 #124
thank god Rome and Paris were open cities during WW2... CTyankee Apr 2015 #125
K and R panader0 Apr 2015 #121
thanks! glad you like it! CTyankee Apr 2015 #122
STUNNING work. calimary Apr 2015 #126
I know. I can't figure it out. I guess he worked it on the clay model he made before the CTyankee Apr 2015 #129
I have been absent from DU for the past 3 days, FourScore Apr 2015 #132
Thank you...you are very nice! It's great sculpture. CTyankee Apr 2015 #136
I've been there and seen these. nolabear Apr 2015 #137
Hey, nolabear, thanks for dropping by! Glad you've seen these two sculptures... CTyankee Apr 2015 #138
Amen to that. nolabear Apr 2015 #139

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
1. Feedback, anyone?
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 05:33 PM
Apr 2015

It's kinda dramatic. At least I was pretty impressed just looking at it...and at the time I knew nothing about Bernini...

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
130. It's wonderful...and thanks for posting.....
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:49 PM
Apr 2015

..the hands in the flesh...quite amazing how that could have been sculpted...the technique...(will have to do more research) is breathtaking.

Thanks for these posts. Its much appreciated!

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
2. The way that the marble looks like silky warm flesh is just incredible.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 05:41 PM
Apr 2015

The more I look at it, the more amazed I am that anyone could bring this out of a block of cold hard marble.
Thank you.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
3. My pleasure. So glad you like this. It was quite a marvel to me, too.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 05:47 PM
Apr 2015

Bernini was an interesting character. It's amazing what the influence of his works (including architecture) did to the city of Rome.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
6. I can't stop looking at it. I think the way you concentrate on just one work of art at a time
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 05:56 PM
Apr 2015

is so good.
I used to monitor auctions for a small company that wrote software for online auctions.
Mostly cars and construction equipment and cattle, until they contracted with one of the two biggest auction houses. I was mesmerized at the art - and the money - that flows through auction houses. Still log in and watch, every once in a while. The money that was bid when Star Trek items were auctioned off - for models made of foam! And then one day I idly noted that The Peaceable Kingdom was being auctioned off. Not exactly my cuppa, but damn! Not a poster!

Anyway, there is so much beauty in the world. Thanks for bringing a tiny part of it here.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
8. Thanks for the info and your kind remarks...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:03 PM
Apr 2015

art is such a big business these days...I do a lot of research on art as you might imagine and it amazes me how little some artists as recent as Warhol in the 1960s got for their works, now probably priceless.

Thank god that during WW2 Rome was an open city and works like these did not have to be practically entombed in brick to preserve them, like they were in Florence.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
34. Yeah, Bernini was pretty much untouchable in terms of competition...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:51 PM
Apr 2015

that Baroque era in Rome was pretty fabulous and pretty pissy, too. Lotsa sniping and nastiness among artists. That's why I LOVE this era...

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
39. Yet somehow today we are expected to accord the same degree of
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:56 PM
Apr 2015

artistic respect to a cow that has been sawed in half and dunked in a vat of formaldehyde.

 

Snow Leopard

(348 posts)
5. thanks for posting
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 05:52 PM
Apr 2015

those statues are amazing. Hope to see them in person some day. Makes "David" seem rather pedestrian.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
13. Well, I don't think the David will not be the top sculpture in the world soon but Bernini is
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:13 PM
Apr 2015

certainly up there in the rankings. Of course, they were in two different art eras so that is a point to be taken...

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
57. These are great , but I disagree . ..
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:28 PM
Apr 2015

... David is truly exemplary. Standing before David is an awe inspiring experience. Believe, Hon.

 

Snow Leopard

(348 posts)
65. I don't mean to denigrate David
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:07 PM
Apr 2015

and I have stood before him in Florence, but this one , to me is a step above. I'm just marvelling that something tops David for me.

PosterChild

(1,307 posts)
94. Glad you had the opportunity to...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 10:48 AM
Apr 2015

.... see David. The great thing about great art is that it can ALL be enjoyed and admired!

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
140. In person they are as amazing as you would imagine and more
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 09:48 PM
Apr 2015

I've been to Rome and Florence twice in the last six years and I could go again and not feel seeing the same things again to be the slightest bit redundant

brer cat

(24,578 posts)
7. I don't think that I have ever seen sculpture
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:00 PM
Apr 2015

that is so alive. Wow. Hard to believe that is marble. His hands especially look like they could move at any moment.

I always have a problem with art that depicts violence. I really recoil. The pain on her face and obvious struggle to be free are haunting. Yet as I looked at it more, I began to appreciate the art and push aside my negative feelings. It is a magnificent piece.

Thanks for bringing us the Friday art lesson. I really enjoy it.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
11. I know. It is the utter theatricality of the early Baroque. Their "thing" as it were.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:07 PM
Apr 2015

Which is why I brought in the two modern women poets and their take on the myth of the abduction of Persephone and what the ancient myth can mean to us today.

However, Bernini wasn't nicest guy to women...I did another piece on his bust of Costanza a year or so ago...great sculpture but he was an SOB and a goddamn criminal...

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
9. I always enjoy these, CT
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:04 PM
Apr 2015

I wish the admins could give you a dedicated spot on the front page- art enriches everybody, if only they let it in. And it is a great break from political BS

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
12. Yeah, I need a break from the BS too. Art research just gives me a lift...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:11 PM
Apr 2015

going into Manhattan on Tuesday to see Warhol's "Campbell Soup Cans." Be warned...there will probably be a Friday essay in your future, if you choose to look...

I know this is really a political website and I am grateful that Skinner has allowed my art threads to be posted in GD (I asked in ATA and he was very nice). So it's all cool...

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
14. I will be on the lookout
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:19 PM
Apr 2015

I haven't delved into Warhol, so I will definitely find it interesting. As soon as time and money frees up a bit I need to get back to the Kimbell. I think I want to join at at least the Family level.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
15. Oh, the Kimbell is a great museum! Lucky you...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:23 PM
Apr 2015

Fort Worth is a great town. Showed Dallas, didn't they?

I'm art lucky here...a train ride to NYC and a drive up to Boston to the Museum of Fine Arts (a great museum with terrific curators). Even some great stuff here in New Haven what with Yale's gallery which is terrific.

I usually post these every two weeks or so depending on family stuff and travel...

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
16. Yep, little Fort Worth
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:30 PM
Apr 2015

whooped Dallas in this regard. I envy your location, though. You have a pretty great theater district, too. I miss Playhouse Square in Cleveland (second only to NYC in seating capacity), and the orchestra, too.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
28. Well, who knows what I'll find when I get to to MoMA and see the thing in reality...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:38 PM
Apr 2015

it can be a heady experience indeed...

calimary

(81,322 posts)
127. I know exactly how you feel! The BS and all that - and personally, what went into making
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:11 PM
Apr 2015

the Viper Room show Thursday night for my son's band the success it turned out to be! HUGE job. Even bigger stress! But it was great! So MY personal essay is in the Lounge. We have a bird's nest tucked up under the overhang at our front door. It's that time of year again, and we are watching the hatchlings grow! GREAT new photo I posted in that thread just a few minutes ago!

Check it out! Post 21!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018750193

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
128. Hey! good luck to you and your son and his band...I have a son in a band and I know
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:15 PM
Apr 2015

a lot about this...

Good luck to him and to you...

malthaussen

(17,204 posts)
17. I'll see your Rita Dove and raise you Edna St. Vincent Millay
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:31 PM
Apr 2015

"Prayer to Persephone"

Be to her, Persephone,
All the things I might not be:
Take her head upon your knee.
She that was so proud and wild,
Flippant, arrogant and free,
She that had no need of me,
Is a little lonely child
Lost in Hell,—Persephone,
Take her head upon your knee:
Say to her, "My dear, my dear,
It is not so dreadful here.

As for that last sculpture, seems like a good place to post this insidiously evil tune:



Try that in a movie now, and it'll never see the light of day.

-- Mal

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
30. that movie is a faint memory of mine...I think we all moved on from that thing...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:42 PM
Apr 2015

but the persistence of memory in this myth is one that fascinates me and one that feminists have taken up and analyzed. Why does it persist?

malthaussen

(17,204 posts)
66. You're in danger of receiving my 25 cent lecture on Strength to answer that.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:15 PM
Apr 2015

Probably not appropriate for an open forum. But in sum, I think it has something to do with Western culture defining "strength" as the ability to force others to do your will. It persists because it is so seductive to the weak-minded.

-- Mal

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
67. um, ok. does this apply to brute strength vs. lesser strength?
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:19 PM
Apr 2015

what if the lesser strong is still strong minded?

malthaussen

(17,204 posts)
87. Not really.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:47 AM
Apr 2015

Since a "strong" mind can also enforce its will. It applies simply to the fact that we think it is a virtue to be able to force other people to do as we will them to, not as they will. The more ability an individual has to create this result, whether by muscles, personality dominance, or even enough fetch-and-carry boys to force compliance, the "stronger" he is, and therefore the more to be admired.

It should be noticed that we also recognize another form of "strength," the strength to endure adversity. But oddly, those who display this sort of strength tend not to receive the kind of recognition those who have the other kind do, unless the conditions are extraordinary. It is also an "oddity" that this sort of strength to endure is typically attributed more to women than men, whereas the former is attributed more to men than women. So one might go so far as to say that these characteristics are regarded as masculine and feminine, and if a member of one gender demonstrates significant ability in the other gender's area of strength, he is more despised than commended. Consider, if you will, the odium that has traditionally applied to "strong" women (even among a measurable percentage of women), and the consider also how a man who suffers the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune is also mocked and degraded. It does appear that certain kinds of behavior are only virtuous if one has the right sort of plumbing.

-- Mal

malthaussen

(17,204 posts)
89. As I was about to add...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:54 AM
Apr 2015

... considering that you ask about "brute" strength and "lesser" strength, by the very way you cast the question you show how pervasive is the defintion. I think it is one of the more insidious subtexts of our culture.

-- Mal

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
91. I use those terms as applied to this sculpture, which demonstrates them nonverbally and
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 09:06 AM
Apr 2015

literally. It is why I used the term "hulk" to describe Hades. He is rippling muscle and large, she is smaller and more delicate.

In Italian, brutto means ugly...interesting...

Hekate

(90,714 posts)
74. That poem about undid me, when I think of what I wrote during my own daughter's wild years...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 10:42 PM
Apr 2015

She survived, as did my son, but I think it was a close thing.

Millay has it right: in the myth, Persephone greets each soul as they enter the Underworld at last -- having been conveyed by Chiron across the Styx, then seeing Hekate at the Crossroads, finally there is Persephone. And it is to Her that a grieving mother would pray, yes.

malthaussen

(17,204 posts)
90. In Bel Kaufman's novel Up the Down Staircase,
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:58 AM
Apr 2015

... the teacher reads this poem to her class and poses the question: who is the narrator? Parent, lover, friend? One kid in the back of the room raises her hand and offers "Maybe a teacher?"

-- Mal

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
18. What a stunning presentation.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 06:46 PM
Apr 2015

You ask for feedback.. What can one say?

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
............."


Maybe your best effort yet. Your writing is as powerful as the sculptures.

All I can do is quote someone else...



CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
23. Oh, pangaia, thank you...I was looking for your feedback and your thoughts...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:24 PM
Apr 2015

I know. The art stuns us into silence sometimes. I know you understand that...but eventually, don't we have to make sense of it in our modern time? How we feel about the role of women in society and how that is shaped by ancient myth? And how is that translated in today's world?

This, to me, is why art fascinates. And central to this this is how a 16th century artist relates to me NOW...

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
73. I find it interesting that I never thought
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 10:36 PM
Apr 2015

of the relationship between this sculpture and the role of women in society until you mentioned it. So I am pondering that.

As with any art form, I try to see, as I am sure you do, the layers of 'meaning,' whatever 'meaning' means. Being a musician, my perceptions of 'art' and sculpture are not as well-informed as yours. In Greek mythology I tend to see the characters, events,...myths, representing the 'big' aspects of life. Big is not the right word.---maybe gargantuan, is better. I see the concept of 'man' and 'woman,' rather than men and women. Does that make sense? So your comment about women in modern society in relation to this sculpture I find very interesting.

I see the idea of the masculine and feminine. Above and below, affirming and denying, reconciling, and perhaps in this case, with the concept of the seasons representing life, winter as death, and so on... fighting to give birth in the 'spring,' fighting against the coming of death...winter... and thus, Thomas.
And then there is the absolutely stunning craft displayed here.... Just experiencing the extraordinary technique is enough to give one the shivers.

The same things, of course, happen in classical music.
That the Anton Webern "Konzert" Op24 for Nine Instruments is a cancrizans, that is, the piece, which is based on a series of 12 constantly repeating pitches, reaches the middle, at which point the order of pitches in the first half reverses and goes in reverse order until the end.
The skill with which Mozart used "only the notes necessary." Whereas Beethoven, 'got rid of the unnecessary notes.' Pretty simplified but, a good representation of how they worked. So with Mozart one can easily be oblivious to the stunning technique. Beethoven more easily seems to ask, "What did he do there?"

The total understanding of women's voices that let Strauss write the trio and duet at the end of Der Rosenkavalier - the trio for the Marschallin, Sophie and Octavian--three totally different soprano vocal qualities (Octavian actually a trouser role written for a mezzo-soprano.) and then the duet for Sophie and Octavian. Breathtaking to listen to, sends chills up your spine, but even more so when one realizes how he did it. Of course it doesn't just 'happen.'( You might try it. It comes right at the end of the opera.)

It is like how several people have commented on the fluidity in Persephone's leg and side where Hades is grabbing her---- the complete understanding of the human body and then the skill to bring that off...and the visceral impression it makes.. the conflict of the entire piece.. which is just frozen right there in front of one... there IS no resolution. I mean, it is almost impossible to look at because of that.

it is the same reason if I had to chose one or the other, I would rather play the Beethoven 7th Symphony than the 5th Symphony. (I was a timpanist/percussionist) because of how, for me, the entire last movement exists as a set up for the totally unexpected dominant seventh chord toward the end. And as if playing it once was not enough, he even did it twice! YEA !! That moment is pure fortissimo balls to the wall- on an intellectual, emotional and physical level. And every single player in the orchestra knows it is coming! There is no escaping it. Does anyone in the audience have ANY IDEA what is happening to players at that point? I doubt it. Of course Beethoven DOES resolve all that angst. ... I think.

So, the Durham Bulls just beat the Gwinett Braves 8-6 on a walk off home run in the bottom of the 9th. I've been streaming the game while writing this between innings... an interesting study of above and below, wouldn't you say.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
85. Go to youtube and watch the 4 part series on Bernini. The music accompanying
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 06:48 AM
Apr 2015

the visual art will just thrill you. It is The Power of Art with Simon Schama. It was also a book but not nearly as magnificent as the BBC show.

My guess is that the pieces played during the presentation approximate Bernini's era but you would know better than I. It is a wonderful merging of art forms.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
86. Oh, your mention of "trouser role" made me flash back to "Voi che sapete" with
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:41 AM
Apr 2015

von Stade singing Cherubino! We used to go to the opera series we once had here in New Haven, but Der Rosenkavalier wasn't one of them . I would probably love it...



pangaia

(24,324 posts)
92. Ah ha ! von Stade....
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 09:33 AM
Apr 2015

My then-girl friend had several lessons/coaching sessions with her her way back...in the '70s right after von Stade first hit the 'big time.'.

I didn't know your knowledge of music. Maybe I wrote a little simplistically. :&gt )

Do see Rosenkavalier if you ever have the chance. I grew up with the Bernstein, Vienna recording and just listening to Lucia Popp and Christa Ludwig makes life worth living. He takes some of the cuts that were not uncommon then, but.....

I have never been to Italy. A trip is on my bucket list--If I can make that happen I will definitely be sure to see Benini.

Thank you for this wonderful introduction.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
93. Let me know if you are planning to visit Florence...I did an art intensive there in 2010...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 09:53 AM
Apr 2015

wow, 10 days and every day was packed full of stuff to see...

I developed a little one page listing of works that are found off the beaten path but near to the places everybody goes...so if for instance you are going to see the David at the Accademia you are only a few blocks from the Convent of San Marco where every cell has a small fresco by Fra Angelico...and so on...and then you'll have bragging rights...I have shared this with friends and family...just my little contribution...

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
95. That would be GREAT 'secret' info to have.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 11:15 AM
Apr 2015

You are so kind.
Florence.. I have ALWAYS wanted to spend some time there.
Bragging rights are a good thing...

I may have told you, whenever I am in the city I try to go to the MET..just to see one black on blue bowl in the Persian exhibit. Of course while there one can not pass up seeing the miniatures again..



CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
98. I have not been to the MET in years...I really should and while I am uptown I could go see
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 11:38 AM
Apr 2015

the Twomblys on exhibit at the Gagosian on Madison Avenue...

If you are uptown anyway, go to the Neue Galerie and see "Adele Bloch-Bauer" by Klimt.

BTW, much of my musical knowledge I learned from my onetime cello major husband. It was from him that I learned terms like "sonata form" and the "concert A" as well as symphony appreciation, particularly Brahms loveliness...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
99. Oh, they are not "secret" really. They are just not usually on the average tourist's radar screen...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 11:55 AM
Apr 2015

Last edited Sat Apr 25, 2015, 05:08 PM - Edit history (1)

it's nice because these sites are much less crowded and you can walk just about everywhere in Florence. I always recommend that folks spend less time in the Pitti Palace and more time with the frescoes by Masaccio and where to find the two Last Suppers by Ghirlandaio (probably my favorite Early Italian Renaissance painter) and which one has the little cat...

(You probably know the old New Yorker cartoon of a guy rushing into the Louvre and saying "Quick, where's the Mona Lisa? I'm double parked!&quot

It makes for a fun visit to discover these gems...

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
133. They were secrets to me.
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 08:30 AM
Apr 2015


Thanks for all the great info.
I also have good friends in toronto who have been to Florence. That would help also.
But you are a fountain of knowledge and info...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
135. You could probably spend months and months in Florence and not go to the same
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 09:20 AM
Apr 2015

amazing site twice.

longship

(40,416 posts)
131. I saw her sing that at the Met.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 10:18 PM
Apr 2015

The only time I have been there. My girlfriend was attending Barnard and got student standing room tickets, at the back of the nose bleed section. But so many attend just to be seen and not see or hear, opera fans know they can snag an empty seat after the first act. The only other role I remember of that performance was (I think) Sheriill Milnes, as Figaro. That was decades ago.

Le Nozze is amongst my favorite operas. And yes, Von Stade was great as Cherubino. I am also a fan of Fiorenza Cossotto in that role.

BTW, missed your OP yesterday. I am glad it bubbled back up today so that I could catch it.

Amazing sculpture. Wow!

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
134. thanks. I just checked it this morning and a strange thing happened...
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 08:40 AM
Apr 2015

one of my photos that I uploaded for that thread magically changed into a photo of the face of an Indian woman. WTF? I went back and edited the thread and uploaded the correct photo but I am mystified. It's never happened before and I've been using tinypic.com for a few years for these posts. I just went to ATA to inquire how that could possibly happen...

Canoe52

(2,948 posts)
19. Just perfect!
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:10 PM
Apr 2015

I'm listening to classical music and reading your post. Totally enjoyed the history of the sculptures and mythology behind them.

Thanks for sharing!

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
26. You are so welcome, Canoe52!
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:29 PM
Apr 2015

Lots of people find art stuffy but this is really exciting! That museum is a treasure...

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
24. Hey, Ellen! Nice to see you here and glad you like the posting...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:26 PM
Apr 2015

that Borghese Gallery is a mind blowing experience in Rome. Helluva ride there!

elleng

(130,974 posts)
27. Got back here late, yank,
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:30 PM
Apr 2015

but wouldn't miss this!

Was in Roma 31 years ago TODAY, on honeymoon, ate at Vatican cafeteria according to my notes, and did some gardens, I think. On to Orvieto for lunch tomorrow, and next, Firenze.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
32. If you missed the Borghese Gallery you didn't see it...not in the Vatican...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:47 PM
Apr 2015

but the church was certainly in Bernini's corner, so to speak. Cardinal Borghese was Bernini's major champion and supporter...until he died Bernini had it made...

elleng

(130,974 posts)
33. I think I got to the Borghese during my college days,
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:50 PM
Apr 2015

as I surely recall seeing these up close.

2naSalit

(86,647 posts)
21. Spectacular!
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:21 PM
Apr 2015

Thank for sharing these works and your interpretations, I've missed the last few weeks and lament that fact.

Since I was a child in New England I have longed to go to travel the world to experience the great works of art and architecture, at least I can see some of it from time to time with your Fridays sharing!

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
35. The first thing I noticed was his fingers digging into her skin
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:52 PM
Apr 2015

Amazing. Makes the statue look so lifelike

Thanks as always.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
36. I know. I showed this exact photo to my husband and he was unbelieving that it could
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:54 PM
Apr 2015

have been in sculpture...

CaliforniaPeggy

(149,640 posts)
37. Oh, wow, these are wonderful sculptures!
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:54 PM
Apr 2015

When my husband and I were in Italy a few years back, we got to see these.

Omigod, I wanted to photograph them, but we were not allowed. I was sooooo frustrated. It's a wonderful gallery and the statues are magnificent. As you say, it doesn't look like marble at all.

Thank you for bringing them here.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
51. Hey, Peggy, I was hoping you would stop by...thanks so much and glad you saw them.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:18 PM
Apr 2015

IRL at the Borghese they are just wonderful. It brings you into the setting so to speak...

fadedrose

(10,044 posts)
41. Masterpieces in DU!
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:58 PM
Apr 2015

Rising above the masses of mediocre political posts, complaints about the President, and a lot of other dumb stuff about other Democrats and especially the Republicans, these sculptures fill me with awe that a human hand created them.

DU is normally not the place to be filled with awe.

Thank you.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
46. Thank you and please come back! I love doing these essays...it is my fun and joy...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:02 PM
Apr 2015

I've got more...stay tuned, I'm here every two weeks or so...

displacedtexan

(15,696 posts)
44. I think of this work every time I open a pomegranate.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 07:59 PM
Apr 2015

Whoever originated this mythic explanation of the seasons had no idea we would still be discussing it. And this 3D work captures the story magnificently.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
54. It's weird. I think because it has layers of interpretation...there is Demeter and her
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:24 PM
Apr 2015

devotion to her daughter. There is the haughtiness of Zeus to Persephone's fate. There is the eating of the pomegranate seeds (why them?).

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
48. Yes, that is Caravaggio's "Judith Beheading Holofernes."
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:08 PM
Apr 2015

Interesting that they would use this image to promote tomato sauce, given the whole picture...I did an independent study on that artist in grad school and still treasure his works...I even still have my reference books (before Google). I LOVED doing that study!

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
49. It doesn't seem like the best choice to promote the product.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:09 PM
Apr 2015

Her worried expression makes me wonder what she sees in the tomato sauce....

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
52. Gentileschi's Judith gets right into it
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:18 PM
Apr 2015

while Caravaggio's Judith looks conflicted and a bit horrified. In the Gentileschi painting she just looks determined. Interesting.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
53. I made a big point in my Master's paper about HER painting vs. HIS...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:21 PM
Apr 2015

she was a rape survivor and had her own ideas about sexual assault...

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
55. That makes sense. Her Judith looks almost vengeful.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:24 PM
Apr 2015

Caravaggio's Judith has a look like she's doing something she has to do but that's extremely distasteful, and she's keeping her distance so she doesn't get blood on herself. Gentileschi's Judith is like, "Take that, you son of a bitch!"

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
47. The whole early Baroque period in the arts is fascinating.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:06 PM
Apr 2015

Listen to the music of Monteverdi and Gesualdo while looking at these sculptures and the paintings of Caravaggio. It all fits together.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
58. I am not the best fan on Monteverdi...hubby was once a cello major in college so we
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:42 PM
Apr 2015

big fans of Baroque music, which is mostly Bach and Handel. Interesting point...

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
60. The early Baroque is much more interesting, IMO.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:47 PM
Apr 2015

I was a music major. When I discovered the early Baroque composers I was absolutely floored at their creativity and the elements of drama and experimentation that you don't find in Bach and Handel (though I love them, too). Here is Gesualdo's most famous madrigal, Moro Lasso, which is so harmonically extreme that you think of Wagner or Strauss - but he did it 400 years earlier. Of course, he was nuttier than squirrel shit, too.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
62. The music is lovely but el greco leaves me cold...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:58 PM
Apr 2015

for some reason I can't get on his wave length and I don't really like is works...

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
64. El Greco was an idiosyncratic Mannerist.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:06 PM
Apr 2015

I wouldn't have used one of his paintings to illustrate Gesualdo; I don't think his stuff fits.

Hekate

(90,714 posts)
75. That's a madrigal, is it? It's light years away from "Flora Gave Me Fairest Flowers"!
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 10:59 PM
Apr 2015

I looked up the translation. The sentiment is what I might expect, but the music is

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
77. The Italian madrigals were more complex and used more serious texts
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 11:05 PM
Apr 2015

then the English ones, for the most part. Gesualdo was the most adventurous of all of them (and he was probably insane, having murdered his wife and her lover and spending most of the rest of his life in seclusion having himself flagellated), but in general you won't find so much happy "fa-la-la" stuff among the Italian madrigals. They were pretty emo, obsessing over stuff like the anguish of unrequited love. And lots of sex.

Hekate

(90,714 posts)
80. I last learned madrigals in high school many decades ago....
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 02:47 AM
Apr 2015

I was in the big choir, and we learned some madrigals in that setting. The small choir was called the Madrigal Singers, and they were the really good singers. I actually remember snatches of those songs, some in French as well as English. They did tend toward the fa-la-la, it is true. Who knew there was an insane Italian waiting for them in college?

Hekate

(90,714 posts)
59. Stone becomes flesh becomes stone...What a staggering feat.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:43 PM
Apr 2015

I soaked myself in the myth of Demeter and Persephone some 20 years ago. Many women have reworked it in various media in the past half-century or more, and my own dissertation definitely went there.

Early on I read Christine Downing's The Long Journey Home: Re-Visioning The Myth Of Demeter And Persephone For Our Time, a collection she edited. The girl is all unwilling, clay fills her mouth, terror fills her heart... I knew this story all to well already, but it grew and achieved so many dimensions in the (re)tellings.

A friend had singer-songwriter Cosy Sheridan's CD The Pomegranate Seed and it blew me away, as yet another interpretation. Later I got to meet her. Here's the title track:
Cosy Sheridan "The Pomegranate Seed"



Like Bernini's statue, the story twists and winds in the telling.

Demeter is not in that statue, but in The Homeric Hymn to Demeter she is the central character. In reading Homer I realized that Persephone was a bride-by-capture, a custom that still exists in some places today. Other realizations also came to me: It's a family story in so many ways (once again it is so evident why Freud chose the Greek myths to work out his theories of human psychology). It was her father who arranged the marriage, by giving her to her uncle. No one thought to ask either the mother or the daughter what they thought of the matter; no one thought to inform them.

No one heard her cry out, except one. Hekate, the third part of the Demetrian Triad, not just old but Oldest. At last the searching Demeter is given this information, and she goes to Zeus to demand her daughter's return.

Zeus is blunt: In his mind he has arranged a kingly marriage for his daughter, Hades, Lord of the Underworld and all the riches beneath the Earth. He will not go back on his word. Why should he: it was an arrangement between two males.

But he has met his match in Demeter, who furiously sets out to starve the Earth and deprive the gods of worship and sacrifices, until at last Zeus relents. (Did you know that gods without worship and sacrifice will fade away?)

But something else has happened to the terrified girl; in the interval, she has become a Queen in her own right. I was left asking: In the end, did she knowingly reach for the pomegranate seed?

And there's more: Persephone transformed. She becomes the focus of the Eleusinian Mysteries, a cult with psychedelic overtones that lasted for nearly 2,000 years.

Still, there is so much else for modern women to work with: the disempowerment of women, sexual abuse, the mother-daughter bond, sexual initiation, rape, puberty-motherhood-old age, rage, grief, terror, loss ..... reconciliation of mother and daughter, and finally transcendence.

It twists and winds. It stays with you. Bernini captures the opening act -- the terror, the outrage, the furious fight, the utter lack of consent by the girl herself. All of that in an utterly gorgeous image.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
61. That was exquisite. Thank you.
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 08:51 PM
Apr 2015

I did NOT want to finish this essay without including two modern women's poets interpreting it. You have brought a wonderful analysis to this picture.

This brings to bear the whole issue of what this sculpture portrays. I will be getting into the role of art in our modern time in later essays here and I hope it will be something you are interested in seeing.

Thank you so much for that input!

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
63. wonderful post...more tomorrow when I have worked what you have said thru my head...
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:01 PM
Apr 2015

I have many thoughts here...

LynnTTT

(362 posts)
69. Borghese Gallery
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:28 PM
Apr 2015

If going to Rome, make reservations on line ahead of time. You can't just decide last minute to go in. Tickets are sold for two hour time slots. You go in a group and they will sweep you out after two hours. Reserve as far ahead as possible. A 'must see" in Rome.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
83. I go to Europe once a year and need to get back to Rome...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 06:28 AM
Apr 2015

but this fall it will be back to Spain. I've been to Italy 5 times and would like to go back to Taormina, which is exquisite.

You are so right about reserving your timed space ahead. In Florence, there was a long line just to get a ticket to go into the Accademia to see the David. And then a long line of ticket holders. Going off season helps but even then it's dicey. But sometimes your hotel can make reservations for you. Group tours certainly do. I was with a Smithsonian group when I saw this Bernini in the Borghese.

virgdem

(2,126 posts)
70. Thank you for this..
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 09:35 PM
Apr 2015

I studied art history in college and was familiar with Bernini. He is one of my favorite sculptors of the Baroque period. I was fortunate to actually see his sculpture when I visited Florence and Rome. There is such fluidity and dynamism to his sculptures-they seem as if alive. Your post brought back vivid memories of his work.

 

OffWithTheirHeads

(10,337 posts)
72. Thank you for these! As someone who has spent my entire life working with my hands
Fri Apr 24, 2015, 10:22 PM
Apr 2015

it just blows me away what people created without electricity, artifical light, power tools etc. Now, with all those advantages, we get crap like this supposed sculpture of the Axtec god Quetzalcoatl in dowtown San Jose, Ca.


Sad

kwassa

(23,340 posts)
79. Other Bernini things I like.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 12:05 AM
Apr 2015

This structure he designed in the Vatican



This plaza design



The Ecstasy of St. Teresa

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
84. Oh yes, that Baldachinno in the Vatican is quite ornate...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 06:37 AM
Apr 2015

Glad you posted the undulating Teresa. It is fascinating.

Here is the segment on Bernini in Simon Schama's BBC series, The Power of Art.

ismnotwasm

(41,989 posts)
96. The story of Persephone
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 11:28 AM
Apr 2015

is too often not referred to as "Rape" but some sort of love story. I find it interesting that this fabulous art pull no punches, does no milder retelling of the tales-- the marble fingers indenting marble thigh, is incredibly moving and very truthful.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
100. Hmm. The Greeks and Romans used it to explain the season of winter, but there are feminist analyses
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 12:03 PM
Apr 2015

that center on Demeter's love for her daughter and her efforts to get her back. It's good to read them, which I did when I was researching this sculpture. It's hard sometimes to separate your emotions on women's issues and the love you have for great and beautiful art. I have other struggles with great religious art and my own agnosticism.

ismnotwasm

(41,989 posts)
102. It's honest art
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 12:12 PM
Apr 2015

The Greeks and Romans weren't known for their progressive stances on women's issues anyway, yet their philosophers and statesmen initiated western civialzation

The art here, is phenomenal, and although the artists certainly weren't making a statement about rape-- they were depicting truth--saw no reason to do it any other way.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
97. Absolutely stunning, though I must admit,
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 11:31 AM
Apr 2015

being the DU and given the title of the thread, I was expecting at least one specific non art-related type of post and haven't seen any yet.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
101. I'm afraid you've got me there...not sure exactly what you mean...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 12:11 PM
Apr 2015

but I think you are saying some folks here might be drawn to the sensational title of the sculpture. Of course, I explain that in my opening sentence so that might discourage any snark right from the start.

I am always happy to see so many DUers love of art. I had only one occasion where I had to admonish a DUer about his conduct back when I was doing the Friday Afternoon Art Challenge...never heard from him again in one of my art threads...

Response to CTyankee (Reply #101)

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
104. If anyone dared to do that they would never hear the end of it from me!
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 12:19 PM
Apr 2015

Just the thought of it makes me

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
105. I agree, and if you'd like, I can remove my posts.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 12:23 PM
Apr 2015

I wasn't intending to derail the discussion at all, and I don't want to give anyone any ideas.

hughee99

(16,113 posts)
111. Really, in my first post, I intentionally didn't post
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 12:30 PM
Apr 2015

what I was expecting, and only replied to the poster when they asked. Then I apologized for the disruption offered to voluntarily remove it, which I also did. It would seem the only one trying to stir shit up now is you.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
114. Hey, it's all good...
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 01:27 PM
Apr 2015

I"m just pleased that I can share my love of art here. We've had so many great insights shared as well from different perspectives.

 

JTFrog

(14,274 posts)
119. I love your art threads.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 05:18 PM
Apr 2015

I look forward to them and I always learn something new. (especially since I have had almost no exposure to great works of art)

Your passion is contagious.




CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
120. OK, then my challenge to you is to find them in books and online.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 05:28 PM
Apr 2015

I got started with this project when my husband was recovering from back surgery. While he napped I would go to the library and had realized that I needed something to keep me sane as his caregiver. I decided on a research project of the Early Italian Renaissance and started pulling books off my library's shelves. It was actually a fun project and it started me down this path. Before that, I had no formal education as an art historian and certainly not as a lofty "art critic" which I am not qualified to be.

One caveat: you might get "hooked" like I was. I think it acts like a drug on your brain. You keep wanting more.

ismnotwasm

(41,989 posts)
113. I really want to see these (and others) in real life
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 01:04 PM
Apr 2015

Someday *sigh*

Your art threads are a treasure, at once a challenge and yet an oasis.

Thank you

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
115. Bernini was an undisputed master.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 01:38 PM
Apr 2015

He could make marble into anything he wished. These statues are wonderful examples of his talent.

I actually think the original title of the Persephone statue is accurate. The statue represents the moment that Hades kidnaps her, it doesn't represent the actual rape. None of the statues with this theme do, it would have been too crass for the era.

The Renaissance commenced in Florence and spread from there to the rest of Europe. The Medici family in particular were big supporters of the arts. When Catherine de Medici was married off to Francis I's younger son (he later became king Henry II when his older brother died), she took to France a large entourage and brought with her the comforts of the Florentine court. Catherine was a smart and cultured woman who loved the arts and architecture in particular. The lists of "firsts" that she brought to France, and that were then spread to other European courts, is extensive. Such as the fork. People had only used spoons and knifes up to that point. She was short, so she and her shoemaker designed the first pair of heels. She was an excellent rider, but had a bad fall and it was hard for her to ride astride. The side saddle style of the era was dangerous and caused many falls. She helped design a new style that added a second horn. That feature is still in use today. She brought her own perfumer and popularized the habit of using perfumes on a regular basis. Perfumes have since become one of France's largest exports. Catherine also brought chefs that changed the country's cuisine until it became what we now identify as French haute cuisine. She brought ice cream to France. During her reign the style of dance we know today as ballet was created. Catherine was quite the Renaissance woman.

Thanks for this post. It's nice to talk about culture and history once in a while, instead of the constant political arguments.


CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
116. Well, the original title IS the title. To change it is to obliterate its historical accuracy.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 02:02 PM
Apr 2015

And thanks for the info about Catherine. She was pretty amazing. I'm glad her history has not been excised because she is a woman. And I'm glad she didn't die in childbirth as so many women did in those days.

Florence's history during the early Italian Renaissance was just fascinating. There is a great essay by Jill Burke, a socialist art historian, entitled "Florentine Art and the Public Good." It's a chapter in a book about Florence that was given to me by my son. The city was a republic, for one thing, altho a limited one by today's standards. The guilds were just as likely to support art as the rich banking families, such as the Medici. Modern banking was invented in Florence. Everybody benefited from the rich public art and from living in a beautiful and honorably maintained city. There is something quite noble in that...

Thanks again for stopping by and for your kind comments...

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
117. I'm an avid reader of history.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 04:16 PM
Apr 2015

I particularly like to read about strong women. I've always felt that Catherine was vilified because, as they say, history is written by the winners, and her Protestant son-in-law inherited the throne after her last remaining male child was assassinated. Most people think of the St. Bartholomew Massacre when they think of Catherine, but she fought for almost 30 years to keep peace between Catholics and Protestants.

Catherine didn't have a happy life. She was orphaned when she was a few weeks old and became a football for all who wanted to take over Florence. The "Duchessina" (little Duchess), was kept in a convent since the age of 8 to protect her from rebels that had taken over Florence. At one point the rebels threatened to pass her around to be gang raped by the soldiers or to kill her and hung her body from the city walls. Luckily, her uncle Pope Clement was able to free her and married her at 14 to the king of France's son. She fell in love with Henry, but to his dying breath at 40 he only loved his mistress, Diane de Poitiers. During the first 10 years of her marriage Catherine couldn't get pregnant. There were rumors that she should be banished and sent back to Italy, but Francis I rejected that advice. He loved his bright, spunky daughter-in-law who was well read and liked to ride and hunt with him. He took her during his travels through France because he found her to be good company. When she finally did become pregnant she continued to be quite fertile. She gave birth to ten children. Her oldest son Francis was married as a teenager to Mary Stuart.

Catherine was hated by the French. They didn't consider her to be noble enough to wear the crown (although her mother had been a French noblewoman and her Medici father a Duke). She was also reviled for being a foreigner. She was called "Madame Serpent", the "Italian Woman" and Mary Stuart labeled her the "Italian Merchant Woman" (it explains why Mary only received perfunctory help from France when she became Elizabeth's prisoner). Despite it all, she and Elizabeth I of England were the most powerful women of the 16th century.

I have to check out the book you mentioned, it sounds interesting.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
118. Have you ever been to Florence? If not, you really should try to go.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 04:46 PM
Apr 2015

You can walk around that city and see a LOT just on foot.

I did an essay here last fall on the city during WW2 where the German army blew up every bridge in the city except the Ponte Vecchio, including Santa Trinita which was partially designed by Michelangelo! Check it out http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025494043

In 1966 poor Florence suffered from a horrific flood, which is another story of loss of art and heroic efforts by hundreds of volunteers who came to save what they could. I think you'll be enthralled by the true stories from that.

Beacool

(30,250 posts)
124. Thanks for the link.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 06:31 PM
Apr 2015

I missed your previous post. I have never been to Florence. I intend to go some day. I remember reading about the flood, it ruined some important works too. WWII destroyed so many architectural masterpieces that it makes one want to weep.

calimary

(81,322 posts)
126. STUNNING work.
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:07 PM
Apr 2015

I've always marveled at how smooth and supple the master sculptor renders flesh. Makes cold hard marble breathe life and warmth and softness! Just AMAZING.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
129. I know. I can't figure it out. I guess he worked it on the clay model he made before the
Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:25 PM
Apr 2015

stone, but how did he do it THERE? I guess he had a way...

FourScore

(9,704 posts)
132. I have been absent from DU for the past 3 days,
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 01:04 AM
Apr 2015

so I made sure to search for this.

It's fantastic, CTyankee!!!

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
136. Thank you...you are very nice! It's great sculpture.
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 07:41 PM
Apr 2015

The more you look at this, the more you "see." It's a wonder...

nolabear

(41,987 posts)
137. I've been there and seen these.
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 07:50 PM
Apr 2015

They are among the most exquisite pieces of art I have ever seen. They glow. That flesh seems pliant. The movement is dynamic and expressive. The faces incredibly emotional. You can see light through the leaves of Daphne's fingers. Light!

Thanks for reminding me of how magnificent these pieces are.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
138. Hey, nolabear, thanks for dropping by! Glad you've seen these two sculptures...
Mon Apr 27, 2015, 08:00 PM
Apr 2015

makes you feel you've died and gone to heaven...well, not really, but still...art can cause your heart to beat harder...mine does, I know...so beautiful and lovely...

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