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Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
Mon May 4, 2015, 08:08 PM May 2015

An offensive image that could goad some to violence:



Context here.

Of course, to many here, there is no offense, even among many of the Christians here on this board, this would be an affirming image. However, for some, both here on this board and in mostly conservative Christian circles, this image would be very offensive, on several different levels. The most obvious being that it seems to indicate that Jesus is endorsing what is a sin in their eyes, this is the debasement of a sacred image to quite a few people.

The context actually makes it worse, if you think about it, it was drawn by a political cartoonist, to be provocative, in the heavily Catholic country of Brazil.

There's a simple point to this, damn near everything we do to endorse any view will be viewed as offensive by some. In many cases, we are provocative, either inadvertently or purposely, but the key is this, none of this excuses violent behavior.
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An offensive image that could goad some to violence: (Original Post) Humanist_Activist May 2015 OP
The worst it would provoke is vandalism, not murder LittleBlue May 2015 #1
Never discount the lone nut, or even small group... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #2
Has anyone been shot for drawing a cartoon image of Jesus? oberliner May 2015 #9
Not in particular, that I'm aware of, but Christianity has different hangups compared to Islam. Humanist_Activist May 2015 #10
IDK, but plenty of violence from rightwingers against govt, abortion, minorities, etc. JaneyVee May 2015 #24
The Jesus in piss water did not result in violence so I doubt this would yeoman6987 May 2015 #29
When they start shooting, let us know seveneyes May 2015 #3
Dead Jesus is creepy no matter he's wearing. nt valerief May 2015 #4
Do you spose the cartoonist intended to incite hateful Christians Voice for Peace May 2015 #5
Does it matter? n/t Humanist_Activist May 2015 #8
legally, intent does matter. Although drawing cartoons certainly isn't illegal KittyWampus May 2015 #13
Intent matters when determining the severity of the crime that was committed. Humanist_Activist May 2015 #14
yes and no, depends on who you are and what you care about Voice for Peace May 2015 #17
It depends on what you are talking about tolerating, I don't tolerate bad ideas... Humanist_Activist May 2015 #19
1st amendment DustyJoe May 2015 #6
There's no escaping it pipi_k May 2015 #7
I competely agree with your point but... Mosby May 2015 #11
I'm not familiar with the artist, evidence? n/t Humanist_Activist May 2015 #15
he uses classic Antisemitic tropes Mosby May 2015 #16
Mosby: that's NOT antisemitism. Voice for Peace May 2015 #18
Big difference to you melman May 2015 #20
I suppose they seem extreme to some, but I found them accurate. Voice for Peace May 2015 #36
comparing Jews to Nazis Mosby May 2015 #32
No: Comparing Israeli military to Nazis Voice for Peace May 2015 #35
I'm not sure if you're Jewish or not, but my personal experience has been Voice for Peace May 2015 #37
Read this report: "Anti-Semitic Cartoons on Progressive Blogs" Mosby May 2015 #40
Where the fuck are the people that were the "M" "C" and "A?" alphafemale May 2015 #12
They were busy jberryhill May 2015 #28
When Christian's Are Offended.. Sparhawk60 May 2015 #21
Laughable. Mapplethorpe did no work 'against Christians'. I don't even know what you are talking Bluenorthwest May 2015 #22
Doh! Sparhawk60 May 2015 #27
Now explain to me how Serrano's work involving his own spiritual and physical body is 'against Bluenorthwest May 2015 #33
Really? Sparhawk60 May 2015 #34
Nobody is denying the existence of "offensive" or "provocative" behaviors. What is being contested WinkyDink May 2015 #23
keep in mind there are MANY MANY MANY MANY PEOPLE calling themselves Christians Voice for Peace May 2015 #38
In 1988, a group of extremist Christians fire bombed a crowded cinema in Paris which was screening Bluenorthwest May 2015 #25
We're talking United States yeoman6987 May 2015 #30
We are? The image in the OP is from Brazil, and the reaction to it not US but Brazilian. Bluenorthwest May 2015 #31
If they could get away with more, many would. Voice for Peace May 2015 #39
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2015 #41
"democrat party" cyberswede May 2015 #42
gosh I totally missed that response to my post, Voice for Peace May 2015 #43
Check your DUMail cyberswede May 2015 #44
I don't find this at all offensive. JaneyVee May 2015 #26
 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
1. The worst it would provoke is vandalism, not murder
Mon May 4, 2015, 08:13 PM
May 2015

from western Christians. Most of us, regardless of our religious beliefs, have been conditioned to not react violently to religious images.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
2. Never discount the lone nut, or even small group...
Mon May 4, 2015, 08:16 PM
May 2015

think of the amount of harassment and even physical danger the LGBT people endure in this country, particularly in schools, small towns, etc.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
9. Has anyone been shot for drawing a cartoon image of Jesus?
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:26 PM
May 2015

If so, I'm not aware of such a thing happening.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
10. Not in particular, that I'm aware of, but Christianity has different hangups compared to Islam.
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:27 PM
May 2015

So comparing like with like is difficult.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
29. The Jesus in piss water did not result in violence so I doubt this would
Tue May 5, 2015, 08:45 AM
May 2015

Christians will complain about it. That's about it.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
13. legally, intent does matter. Although drawing cartoons certainly isn't illegal
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:35 PM
May 2015

most people certainly do take intent into consideration when considering others actions.

That's why there are hate crime laws, for instance.

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
14. Intent matters when determining the severity of the crime that was committed.
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:39 PM
May 2015

No crime was committed here, so it doesn't matter. In addition, people are in control of their reactions, the killers are responsible for their own actions, period.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
17. yes and no, depends on who you are and what you care about
Tue May 5, 2015, 02:15 AM
May 2015

I personally don't think that hate + hate = peace, illumination, insight, tolerance

 

Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
19. It depends on what you are talking about tolerating, I don't tolerate bad ideas...
Tue May 5, 2015, 03:40 AM
May 2015

for example, anti-blasphemy laws, theocracy, homophobia, sexism, racism, etc. These ideas should not only not be tolerated, but should never be given endorsement or force of law in any nation on the planet. No pluralistic society can survive with such ideas being not only propagated, but the actions that follow encouraged.

We can tolerate people just fine, its ideas that are the problem, you want a society with free expression, free thought, and equality? Fine, but don't blame the victims of violence for the actions of those who don't know how to live in a pluralistic society.

DustyJoe

(849 posts)
6. 1st amendment
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:24 PM
May 2015

As far as I know, no shootings or deaths or attempts as such were made when the controversial 'Piss Christ' was foisted as first amendment art, so the image above shouldn't evoke any other life threatening action. Sure, threats might fly on the interwebs, but it's doubtful any religous extremists would drive a thousand miles to try to shoot up a venue where the above image might be displayed like Dallas just saw.

on edit
The image above could cause some palpitations in the 'shroud of turin' believers

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
7. There's no escaping it
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:25 PM
May 2015

Like you said...

There's a simple point to this, damn near everything we do to endorse any view will be viewed as offensive by some. In many cases, we are provocative, either inadvertently or purposely, but the key is this, none of this excuses violent behavior.



Sometimes people see exactly what they're looking for in just about anything.

Also, as you said, none of it excuses violent behavior.

Unless we're severely brain damaged or suffer some terrible mental problem that causes us to act out against our will, we always have the choice to not react with violence.

People who excuse their actions by blaming it on someone else are no better than abusers who blame their victims when they say, "Look at what you MADE ME do!!"

"You MADE ME starting drinking!!"

"You MADE ME hit you!!"

People need to take responsibility for their own actions. That goes for people who exercise free speech as well. Sure, there are certain things we can say, but if we know what we say could provoke an unstable person to violence, then we shouldn't be surprised or shocked when it happens.

It's a two-way street.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
18. Mosby: that's NOT antisemitism.
Tue May 5, 2015, 02:23 AM
May 2015

Those are political cartoons against Israeli occupation and oppression.

very very very big difference.

 

melman

(7,681 posts)
20. Big difference to you
Tue May 5, 2015, 04:34 AM
May 2015

To many others those images are pretty extreme.

BUT, nobody gets shot over them.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
36. I suppose they seem extreme to some, but I found them accurate.
Tue May 5, 2015, 06:03 PM
May 2015

The Israeli Government is not the Jews!!

Mosby

(16,313 posts)
32. comparing Jews to Nazis
Tue May 5, 2015, 09:32 AM
May 2015

Claiming that Jews have supremacist beliefs, and control the US or world is classic Antisemitism.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
37. I'm not sure if you're Jewish or not, but my personal experience has been
Tue May 5, 2015, 06:12 PM
May 2015

some Jews do have supremacist beliefs, believing they and
their relatives are particularly special to a divine Creator.

Some Muslims do, too.
Don't forget the Christians!! Lordy, lordy.

Antisemitism is very simple. It is the same as racism.
I see no difference. Hatred of gays, the same. It's a big
error for Jews or Israelis to presume they are more
special, in need of greater protection for their rights and
safety. There have been many holocausts, not only one.

But an Israeli state was created for that purpose, and
militarized beyond all reason, and now they are grabbing
land, threatening and oppressing others.

Mosby

(16,313 posts)
40. Read this report: "Anti-Semitic Cartoons on Progressive Blogs"
Tue May 5, 2015, 06:48 PM
May 2015

-snip-

Carlos Latuff

Carlos Latuff is a Brazilian political activist and cartoonist with a staggering portfolio of political cartoons, many of which openly express anti-Semitic themes. He advances the narrative that Israel is a unique and immutable evil in the world.[60] His work includes imagery clearly indicating moral equivalence between Israel and Nazi Germany, which he has explicitly acknowledged to be his view.[61] The Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Antisemitism and Racism noted that Latuff’s “portrayal of [former] Israeli Prime Minister Sharon is reminiscent of the antisemitic caricatures…in Julius Streicher’s [Nazi publication] Der Sturmer.”[62]

Latuff’s works have been posted on various Indymedia websites and blogs as well as several newspapers and magazines such as JAMI, the magazine of the Islamic Front for the Iraqi Resistance,[63] the Lebanese newspaper Al Akhbar,[64] and other formats such as anti-Israel academic Norman Finkelstein’s official website.[65] Latuff participated in the 2006 Iranian International Holocaust Cartoon Competition, and won second place for his cartoon comparing Israel’s West Bank barrier with the Nazi concentration camps.

Ian Black, writing for The Guardian, a daily not known for its philo-Semitic tendencies, noted that Latuff was among those cartoonists “drawing, without inhibition, on judeophobic stereotypes in the service of the anti-globalisation movement.”[66] Latuff also has employed antiblack racist themes in criticizing President Barack Obama.[67]

http://jcpa.org/article/anti-semitic-cartoons-on-progressive-blogs/

This is how the piece of shit portrays our President:











 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
12. Where the fuck are the people that were the "M" "C" and "A?"
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:32 PM
May 2015

Dammit, are they just going to leave him hangin' out there like that?

 

Sparhawk60

(359 posts)
21. When Christian's Are Offended..
Tue May 5, 2015, 07:57 AM
May 2015

...they clutch their pearls and exclaim "well, I never!" and walk away in a huff.

Mapplethorpe produced some extremely offensive works against Christians. That resulted in some Christians writing strongly worded letters of protest, but no one was killed. Of course, that did not stop Time magazine from listing him as one of the top ten persecuted artists.

Wonder what would have happen if Mapplethorpe targeted Islam instead of Christianity?


/I would rather get a strongly worded letter of protest over a bullet any day

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
22. Laughable. Mapplethorpe did no work 'against Christians'. I don't even know what you are talking
Tue May 5, 2015, 08:09 AM
May 2015

about. What works ARE you talking about? How in the fuck do you think his work 'targeted Christianity'? Explain your thinking. I think you are a confused art critic.

 

Sparhawk60

(359 posts)
27. Doh!
Tue May 5, 2015, 08:34 AM
May 2015

My bad, I mistakenly thought Mapplethorpe did the 'Piss Christ". I realize Andres Serrano is the correct artist.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
33. Now explain to me how Serrano's work involving his own spiritual and physical body is 'against
Tue May 5, 2015, 09:34 AM
May 2015

Christians'. His work had nothing to do with Christians.

 

Sparhawk60

(359 posts)
34. Really?
Tue May 5, 2015, 10:52 AM
May 2015

How can you be so unaware?

But just in case you are new to this planet.....The crucifix is a holy/sacred symbol for Christians. Body wastes, such as urine is considered unclean and taboo. (we even have special rooms set aside to deposit such body wastes where they are then whisked away) Covering a holy symbol with body waste (urine) is considered defilement. Defiling a holy symbol is considered an insult and is offensive to that group.

Another example would include using the Koran to wipe your butt.

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
23. Nobody is denying the existence of "offensive" or "provocative" behaviors. What is being contested
Tue May 5, 2015, 08:18 AM
May 2015

are the REACTIONS.

SOME people simply do not GET that they and others have Free Will and can CONTROL THEIR BEHAVIORS WHEN OFFENDED OR "PROVOKED."

"Self-defense" is about it, when it comes to being excused from certain reactions. And even then the threat had better be severe and imminent.

I don't think a cartoon exhibit (or magazine) meets that last qualification.

"He called me a name!" "She insulted me!" "That drawing offends my beliefs!" "[Fill-in-the-blank]-shaming!" "That's bigoted!" "That's blasphemous!"

All legally-protected speech. The angry retaliatory punch in the face? Not protected.

Now, if one wants to argue manners, propriety, decency, and the Golden Rule---that is another kettle of fish altogether.



 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
38. keep in mind there are MANY MANY MANY MANY PEOPLE calling themselves Christians
Tue May 5, 2015, 06:17 PM
May 2015

and the only reason they CONTROL THEIR BEHAVIORS
WHEN OFFENDED OR "PROVOKED" is because of the law.

The laws of civilized countries generally prohibit such behavior.
If they could get away with it?

How many over-armed right wing Christians do you suppose
are itching to shoot some gays, some blacks, some libtards,
some ragheads? In the name of Jesus, even.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
25. In 1988, a group of extremist Christians fire bombed a crowded cinema in Paris which was screening
Tue May 5, 2015, 08:29 AM
May 2015

Martin Scorsese's 'Last Temptation of the Christ'. Many people were critically injured although fortunately they failed to kill anyone. They were of course 'offended' at the content of the film.

 

yeoman6987

(14,449 posts)
30. We're talking United States
Tue May 5, 2015, 08:52 AM
May 2015

In the United States nothing happened when they showed temptation of Christ except a letter or two to the editor. Christians don't resort to violence over a picture of movie.... As someone above said, they write a strongly worded letter. Letter over killing is much more reasonable.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
31. We are? The image in the OP is from Brazil, and the reaction to it not US but Brazilian.
Tue May 5, 2015, 09:31 AM
May 2015

And while there was no violence in the US, the protests here were vigorous and followed the Paris attack, the film was pulled from entire chains of theaters. They did far more than write letters, and they were not shy about invoking that fire bombing when staging protests with mock crucifixions and such.

This 'my religion is better than theirs' tactic is a loser. Because they are all of them flawed and culpable.

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
39. If they could get away with more, many would.
Tue May 5, 2015, 06:19 PM
May 2015

Many people calling themselves Christians would happily
exercise their second amendment rights in the name of
Jesus, if it weren't for the gubmint.

Response to Voice for Peace (Reply #39)

 

Voice for Peace

(13,141 posts)
43. gosh I totally missed that response to my post,
Fri May 8, 2015, 02:10 AM
May 2015

do you remember what it said? I'm intrigued by its
absence.

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