We have to be insulted and outraged every day by what we see and what we read. By slaughter and murder. Slaughter and murder and barbarism and insult and superstitious nonsense, we do not reply in kind, we don't say, "We'll go and kill you if you're going to insult us like this."

"Do we get no credit for saying this? When has anyone ever said what's it like to be insulted as someone thinks that civilization is a real thing? Why is it always interfaith, why is it always interdenominational? Why can't we say that all of these cults are equal and equivalent glimpses of the untrue?" Christopher Hitchens

irony, and the chopping down of self-flattering egos.

and slaughter innocent people in their own homelands, please don't fucking talk about enlightenment.



Ask this little one what she witnessed
https://www.google.com.jm/search?q=photo+of+iraqi+family+killed+at+checkpoint&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=EAhJVcvtBMaXNv7VgegN&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=789&bih=365#imgrc=f7ugb3adRgTuTM%253A%3BkU-Vym3S8R2ZSM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252F%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fcathiefromcanada.blogspot.com%252F2006_06_01_archive.html%3B280%3B366

who cares to can discuss anything we please.

If you don't think there's a problem when over half of Muslims in each middle eastern country want sharia law and over half in each middle eastern country wants the death penalty for leaving Islam, then perhaps you're part of the problem when you DEMAND we don't fucking talk about it. Read this article and tell me again how it isn't a problem for EVERYONE.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

and we are supposed to concede these most critical of freedoms to hostile antiquarians with anger problems? No. I refuse.

If anyone had to wait until their country were perfect world citizens before being allowed to have opinions, it would be pretty fucking quiet everywhere. "antiquarians with anger problems" - that's fabulous and I hope you don't mind if I shamelessly steal.

Just as the Enlightenment and colonialism existed next to one another, so does the USA's policies of war and policies of free expression.

It is the only possible position any thinking person can take .

I appreciate not being accused of knowing too little about Islam to understand the first amendment of the USA.

Most Muslims around the world express support for democracy, and most say it is a good thing when others are very free to practice their religion. Given a choice between a leader with a strong hand or a democratic system of government, most Muslims choose democracy. In 31 of the 38 countries where the question was asked, majorities of Muslims say people of other faiths can practice their religion very freely. And of those who share this assessment, overwhelming majorities consider it a good thing.



Muslims around the world strongly reject violence in the name of Islam. Asked specifically about suicide bombing, clear majorities in most countries say such acts are rarely or never justified as a means of defending Islam from its enemies. In all but one of the 36 countries where the question was asked, no more than one-in-five Muslims express worries about Christian extremism, compared with 28 countries where at least that many say they are concerned about Islamic extremist groups.

In general, American Muslims are more at ease in the contemporary world. About six-in-ten Muslims living in the U.S. (63%) say there is no tension between being religiously devout and living in a modern society ... U.S. Muslims are much less likely than Muslims worldwide to say that all or most of their close friends are Muslim (48% vs. global median of 95%).

American Muslims are somewhat less likely to believe in evolution than are Muslims in other parts of the world (45% vs. global median of 53%). Indeed, when it comes to evolution, U.S. Muslims are closer to U.S. Christians (46% of whom say they believe in evolution) than they are to fellow Muslims elsewhere in the world. American Muslims are even more likely than Muslims in other countries to firmly reject violence in the name of Islam.

the "cause"? I certainly don't. That there are some that question the most egregious parts of Islam doesn't even compare to those who want to KILL people for leaving Islam. I find those numbers extremely disturbing. That you don't is entirely your business but I was under no obligation to do anything but link to the entire poll. Are you accusing me of hiding that information or just that you don't like my focus?

That is vastly different from claiming "enlightenment" for a group or person - I would not ever do that.

anything that might bother someone else, ever, ESPECIALLY if it offends the sensibilities of the deeply religious.

It is vitally important that we all comport ourselves in such a way that we never offend anyone's deeply held religious beliefs. This is why it is vitally important that we not teach things like evolution, in schools. WHO CARES if it is "true", it MIGHT HURT SOMEONE'S RELIGIOUS FEELINGS and THAT is what matters! NOTHING ELSE.

It's why "the gay agenda" must be stopped. Lots of fundamentalists are profoundly BOTHERED by gay people. Do we want to DELIBERATELY BOTHER them? Isn't that INCITEMENT? Making them mad!

It's "fighting words" and just like yelling fire in a crowded theater! Which you CANT DO so obviously the 1st amendment stops the minute you say ANYTHING that bothers anyone. IT'S THE EXACT SAME THING!

When you offend a fundamentalist, it is NOT PROTECTED SPEECH! If you say something that makes a, say, Eric Rudolph so mad he needs to go bomb a lesbian bar, that's YOUR FAULT and WHY DID YOU NEED TO INCITE HIM with your anti-religious ideas and lifestyle?

Again INCITEMENT and all you free speech weenies are just ignoring the point which is YOU CANNOT SAY ANYTHING THAT OFFENDS THE RELIGIOUS. PERIOD. THAT'S THE LAW because fighting words and incitement and why do you incite and cause people to get so mad they HAVE to commit violent acts because YOU OFFENDED THEIR GOD!?!??!?!?

STOP IT. Free speech is not nearly as important as making sure the world is non-offensive to the most narrow, authoritarian fundamentalists on the planet.

I don't see why that's so hard to understand.

...

, by the way.

demonstrated by your post - so that a group that thinks their 13% are going to heaven and the other 87% of humanity is going to burn forever in hell can feel even more insulated.

Blasphemy is the smallest of challenges to faith. What happens when a real test comes along?

Incitement and yelling fire in a crowded theater are my favorites...

This mistake is so common it nearly drives me to racquetball.

Obviously if there IS a fire in a crowded theater bringing it to people's attention is completely justified.

'fighting words'. They actually expect to make others stop criticizing any religion while religions will be free to hold 'God Hates Fags' rallies and continue with hate mongering sermons and billboards and church marquees.

"asking for it." The usual response from us, "I'd like to get that man where there are no witnesses."

Were I sitting on a jury of someone accused of battery against someone from the Westboro crowd, and if they used "fighting words" as a defense, I would definitely vote "not guilty". Were I sitting on a jury of someone from the Westboro crowd accused of assault against a gay man, and if the prosecutor cited "fighting words" as the evidence of the assault, I would easily vote "guilty".

Why do we even have assault as a law? If I hit you, that is battery. If I pick a fight, aka use "fighting words", that is assault.

any actual organized opposition from any segment of the Straight community, not 'people of faith' not 'populists' and not the 'fighting words' crowd. All of them just stood around watching us get bullied and attacked. For years, in all 50 States meaning near you.
Take him to court? For what? What they did was legal and unopposed by any counter actions form the American public.
When Phelps started going after Veteran's funerals, straight people finally started to care. Until then, basically it was not a fucking word.

So it's great that folks rush to defend Muslims, but it does very much highlight the times those folks have not defended others under attack. It puts a spotlight on the years of apathy both actual and rhetorical on the part of straight Americans in regard to vile mistreatment of your LGBT neighbors.

Attempt v murder.

We showed him.

Ah, I see he was a democratically elected leader of Iran who was critical of the accounting of major oil producers like BP...

He was a western-educated lawyer and completely committed to democracy.

Which made no difference to the malevolent and Manichaean Dulles brothers. Mossadegh's insane thought that Iranian resources belonged to the Iranian people meant one thing - COMMIE. And they had him overthrown in favor of their brutal buddy, the Shah.

That worked out great, didn't it?

I am not in favor of religious rulers - our own included. I am not in favor of much of the nation-sculpting the USA has participated in either.

It's the basis for a lot of the ill-will we receive from the Middle East. Our need for our own cordon sanitaire around the USSR led to a lot of shit. I'll bet if we'd never meddled in the region to the extent that we did, a lot of this Death to Infidels stuff would never have emerged.

While I didn't mean to imply the USA embodies principles in all places and in all times, I should have been more careful to point out some of the many and obvious ignorant actions it has taken through history as well.

supremely bad move.

One of many that took place under Ike.

However, that doesn't justify shooting people over cartoons.

than Hitchens.

Some people can't handle a paradox.

want from a nation of free speech and expression. Do they want pre-emptive censorship of what they consider blasphemes?

which claims to be the final revelation of the creator of the universe and that claims to provide governance for every area of life?

Cultural shifts are often difficult.

An awful lot of Muslims do want blasphemy to be criminalised, but quite a lot don't, too.

they dont want minorities to even vote.

Sure, Islam has some sick ideas about gays too.

But then ALL religion is fucked up in one way or another.

I think it's generally a mistake to try to turn aside criticism of Islam by replacing it with criticism of religion in general - yes, there are plenty of valid criticisms of other religions, but I think it's not a good idea to obfuscate the fact that Islam is far worse at any given centile than any other religion (*not* "all Islam is far worse than all of any other religion&quot , and should be singled out for criticism.

to speak of Islam like it's a spoiled toddler rather than a religion with hundreds of millions of individual (and individually-minded) adherents is... shortsighted. i'm just going to leave it at that.

Last edited Thu May 7, 2015, 05:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Any significant number of individuals getting together to demonstrate against this behavior or to organize a reformation will be a welcome sight.

Any significant number of individuals getting together to demonstrate against this behavior or to organize a reformation will be a welcome sight.

I also don't expect apologies from the 1000s of millions of Muslims. I hope for a reformation from within their own religion.

Which factions within those sects?

Islam is not a monolithic entity, any more that "Christianity" is.

Who in your mind should decide what Islam wants? What Christianity wants? What Atheism wants?

or is it like congregationalists and baptists? I have no idea. That's not my problem.

Islamic tradition? Because that's not the subject.

yet somehow you expect thinking, rational human beings to accept your arguments about how Islam should behave.

We'd have to be pretty stupid to do that.

Last edited Thu May 7, 2015, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)

I also don't find not knowing the intricate details of the various denominations of Islam a hindrance to articulating my concerns. I also - and this is important - don't care about these denominations or details of a religious system. I don't care about these details of any religion. Yet I intend to carry on asking questions and criticizing beliefs.

You ask questions, but don't listen to the answers. You criticize without understanding.

You belong on the ignore list. Bye.

I don't have one myself - I am not the type to shy away from what is challenging to my own thoughts and beliefs.

It isn't feigned when you are willing to kill blasphemers and kill them in public, horrible ways.