the less shit you eat.

rule of thumb.

But let's say they are correct, what if the jobs created are better jobs, last longer, etc. And, the total they calculate is less than 1% of the total jobs we have here. Even if accurate, hardly enough to throw our future away over.

In 1970, a family could live reasonably comfortably on the income of one earner. In 2015, two earners need 3 jobs between them to make it. Are you seriously trying to claim that we common folk are better off now than we were 30 or 40 years ago? Jobs are not "better," pensions are gone, poverty rates have climbed across that period…

What color is the sky on your planet?

Truth is, we found out 40 or so years ago that German and Japanese cars were better than ours, and the electronics were too.

I think we actually got a little ahead of ourselves in terms of the standard of living back then. Now it's kind of equalizing, and some people are having a hard time adapting.

that we Americans deserve to have our standard of living, our wages, and the number of jobs here lowered, as payback for what we have done overseas. Bombing, etc. So when he is also saying the TPP will make things better here, he is being disingenuous at best - and looks like "better" does not mean what we think it means, it is not for us. Assuming that no one else has critical thinking skills leads to posting that hey, the situation will be better for the US and then no it won't, but that is what the US deserves. Sometimes in the same post. Like here - in the same post - yes, jobs will be better, and No, things will get worse but that is "equalized". Amazing.

equalizing. It's becoming more and more unfair.

BTW, Hoyt is not alone. Susie Orman began trying to get us used to the "New Normal" soon after the crash of 2008. If you tune in when PBS is fundraising, you might even see a re-run of that program.

Eat your peas.

Not anything about equalizing in the US itself.

I'm 71 years old. I watched the trade agreements kill our economy.

The only Americans they help are, in theory, corporations. And they aren't really American anymore. They are international.

We humans are not international.

The TPP will offer nothing good to Americans. Please.

It will harm our country. Talk about national security. The biggest threat to our national secuirty at this moment is the TPP.

A large number of high paying manufacturing jobs fled for the maquiladoras, exactly as Perot suggested. These workers didn't all get to retrain as software engineers or robotics repair techs. The better jobs are being replaced by service work, temp and contractor jobs.

It"s difficult to protect those jobs. I don't think peasants were ready for high skilled jobs.

And some folks didn't take advantage of the opportunity to move into other industries.

That's not to say that some folks weren't screwed far beyond anything they did, or failed to do. They should have received assistance, as should those displaced by technology.

These days, even X-Rays are being electronically sent to Indian docs to be read. Any time now, they're going to outsource medical & psychological interviews. The results needn't be good for the patient, but they will be cheap.

me, nor do I think it hurts quality of care. I know a lot of Americans think no one can do as good as them, but they are finding out the hard way that's not true.

"peasants". It clears up my mind to where you come from!
Funny, because I like farmers and ranchers; perhaps that
reminded me that your attitude is the same as"let them eat cake"!

Lots here seem to be.

illusion that those poor people would get the
profit from this deal. Perhaps you should wake
up to the fact that the repugs don't care about
exactly these people. They support it to give
the gains to the large corporations.
But you know that, therefore the quick switch.

Last edited Mon May 18, 2015, 05:31 AM - Edit history (1)

Agreed they should benefit more, and the TPP will help.

That argument is just a rationalization for refusing to give foreign countries a chance to share in some progress.

And we know some Mexicans who were making 50 cents a day, are holding jobs at $8 an hour in foreign auto plants. Ask them if they are better off.

Or should that read "outliars"?

Thanks.

Mexicans making $8/hour. Yep, that's true too.

. . . . . . .comparably skilled Mexican workers are paid an average of $8 per hour. Compared to Mexico’s minimum wage of $4.50 per day, this has been a boon to the 675,000 Mexican auto workers. The country’s automotive workforce has doubled in the past decade, contributing to the country’s steady return to economic stability.

Read more: http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/mexico-the-next-great-automotive-battlefield.html/?a=viewall#ixzz3aVz7RlPd

What else do you need to know. If you don't think a country benefits from having businesses invest there, you are too obtuse to try to convince, much less do a little research yourself.

...of burning to death in a factory fire with the exits locked!

I bet every time a plant opens up, they have no trouble finding workers.

Any company that runs an operation like that, should be sued, and managers imprisoned. I doubt there are many plants like that in most countries in TPP, and there are preventive measures in the agreement.

A chance to do most of the service rep and paralegal jobs.

No doubt next they will ship our teaching jobs overseas.

You are not in America because if you were you would know how frustrating it is for us to have to deal with someone in Timbuktu just to make an appointment with someone here in America.

Let poor people in foreign countries do work for their neighbors in their own economy. They are not being paid well. If they were being paid decently, our corporations would not transfer the jobs to their economies.

You have no idea how Americans have lost out and how discouraged they are because of these trade deals. We are turning into the poor in foreign countries. Surely other countries have television, and the people in other countries can answer the phones of customers in their own countries and repair their own computers, etc. We want jobs that service Americans to be done in America. We want to buy or at least be able to buy lots of products made in the US. We can't because of these trade deals. No more trade deals. We have had enough of this.

Bloody hell, you're getting deperate.

probably throw in good ole American greed.

But of course, you give wide berth to that spectre. Instead bashing the proletariat of the US as though they were willing agents in the plunder of the world's resources.

Unwittingly, you point out how te US working class actually drives the US economy...."trickle up" as it were. Hence your bashing of that group, even as they're hollowed out by your beloved corporate interests.

From where I sit, it looks like American Working Class survival.

WHO THE FUCK DO THEY THINK THEY ARE FOOLING?

Where do you live?

You are the ultimate goal post mover.

On one hand it's dead on about you. On the other, I can't believe ( as a sports hater ) I used that anology.

right wing neighbor when I can't hide from him.

I guess you feel like her?

And some folks didn't take advantage of the opportunity to move into other industries.

And lawyering was only one example.

Last week I spoke to a service representative for my telephone company. She was a nice young lady -- in the Philippines.

Do you know that in the late 60s early 70s while I was finishing my Masters of Arts in languages I was a service rep for a Ma Bell subsidiary. That was the best paying job I could get at the time. A top job in the service industry. And now those jobs have been exported. And the TPP will just make the export of our good jobs all the easier.

Really. Please don't insult the American workers.

Do you seriously think that people in other countries are that much better educated than American workers? Have another think, please. I am astounded at that assertion.

We have farmers like one of my cousins who has degrees in his field and who farms acres and acres of land very profitably.

The people who are anti-TPP are sophisticated, knowledgeable and have seen the havoc reeked by the past trade agreements we so naively entered into.

I don't think you are in the US. You are not talking about our sophisticated, well prepared workforce.

The products we are getting from these third world countries are horrible compared to what we could buy before NAFTA -- buy at prices that were affordable with our pre-NAFTA wages.

I still have cotton sheets from pre-NAFTA times. They are still great. The weave of our textile firms, the close weave holds up over time. I bought some fabric a few years ago, made some pants, loved them, wore them. My sewing held. The fabric shredded. That can happen but the American fabrics were so much better than the lousy stuff we are importing. If you are young, you don't know the old products and therefore can't compare the new ones to them. But it is a big mistake which suggests ignorance about what our economy was traditionally to say that you don't think our "peasants were ready for high skilled jobs."

Boy, that is so far from the truth. The best washers, Maytag washers, were made in Newton, Iowa. The workers were skilled and had a wonderful work ethic. I have lived in other countries. No people on earth has a better work ethic than Americans.

Again. What country do you live in?

because of greed and xenophobia among Americans.

government to enforce labor and environmental restrictions supposedly imposed by the trade agreements.

http://www.warren.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=819

And listen to this Elizabeth Warren speech to the delegates at the California Democratic Party's convention in Anaheim this year.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12653926

The crowd went wild with applause and affirmation when Elizabeth Warren began to speak out against the TPP. The convention is full of people picked specifically to represent California Democrats by the Democratic Clubs and the leadership of our p

I don't think that trade deal is going to happen. And if it does, it will signal the beginning of a great political movement to rethink trade in the US.

These trade agreements are bad for America, and not really good for anybody else.

The WTO has usurped one of the powers or authorities granted to our Congress in our Constitution which is Article I, section 8, the authority to regulate trade.

The TPP is dead in the water.

We Americans have no reason to continue to allow international courts to limit our ability to impose safety and other regulations on our commerce.

It's just a corporate coup.

We are a sovereign nation, and we don't need the TPP or even NAFTA for that matter.

But, Canada and Mexico might retaliate with tariffs that hurt our meat producers. We get to decide if it is worth it, and appeal the decision.

We could put tariffs on their products if they put them on ours. I think I will try to find a farmer who will sell meat directly to me. That will be the next "in" thing. Too bad I don't live in the Midwest. I know some there.

My grandfather had a farm and a meat locker. He had someone slaughter his meat or did it himself and put the meat in his own locker. He always knew where it came from. You can buy an Amish turkey for Thanksgiving, a big one fed good feed, if you live in the right parts of Ohio and Indiana and I imagine other parts of the Midwest.

Americans who really care about the origins of the meat they eat will get around this horrible decision.

Seems simple to me.

If I'm not mistaken, we take the same approach - not wanting to label GMOs - being sent to Europe. I think it's lame, but seems countries are afraid people elsewhere think their food sucks, so they try to hide it.

I was a seamstress and custom upholsterer. Nobody wants to pay for fine work anymore. It is cheaper to buy and throw away every year than pay for things that last for decades.

It is true what you say about the textile industry, I can't find fabric that doesn't unravel as soon as I cut it or shred after one wash. Even the thread snaps at the slightest tug.

This statement caught my eye: "The best washers, Maytag washers, were made in Newton, Iowa."
I have one of these fine machines. I will go to great lengths to keep this beauty operating. I would never consider wasting my money on the crap on the market these days. I also still hang my bedding on outdoor clothes lines to dry (talk about sweet restful sleep).

I also have a 1940's circa O'Keefe & Merritt gas range. It is a splendid example of American Craftsmanship.

I think hoyt is clueless about the state of peasantry in this country. We are many.

It's just a hobby. But nowadays I do buy a lot of knit tops. Interesting that you were a seamstress. Back in the day I learned to sew in the seventh grade. I was the worst student in the class. Barely passed. Probably sewed more in my grown-up life than any other girl in that class. Funny how life works.

She did beautiful needle work.

My other grandmother gave me my first sewing machine (Singer peddle). I made all my clothes in Junior and Senior High on that thing. LOL.

Now days I do most of my sewing on a Necchi Supernova (getting hard to find parts).

Hell I still hook rag rugs.

Nice to meet a fellow needleworker.

pushing their new fake free trade toy for Wall Street, and he is doing his best TPPeeing from that list of excuses they gave him.

Deny that you are a hired gunn why am I not surprised.
Did your favorite girl the ex gov. Hire you?

you post.

jobs "doesn't bother" you?

Critical reasoning kills TPP in the crib. No previous corporate racketeering act masquerading as a free trade deal has done anything other than destroy thousands of good paying jobs and gut our manufacturing sector. To believe this time is different, and to take our politicians words of assurance rather than believe our own eyes is clearly not working towards critical reasoning. If I didn't know any better I'd say you're a propagandist.

Are as critical as it gets.

I'd say the people believing the corporate drivel are the ones who lack critical thinking skills

the secrecy alone pisses me off.

I know that were I a Senator, I'd want to read at least part of the damned thing before I decided how to vote on it.

Only those with high security clearances were allowed to read selected parts. They were not allowed digital devices, nor could they take any notes.

This is unacceptable. Only those who have been completely bought can possibly be for this stinker, no matter what's in it.

Has he secretly been a fanboy of the 1% all along and just stringing the rest of us along in order to get votes?

... written of the 1%, by the 1% and for the 1%.

And being written without congressional input; instead being written by corporate lobbyists.

That would be my guess.

Even us stupid, far left liberals can see thru the phony ruse.

Add up all the GDP of the countries in the TPP. We already have free trade agreements with the countries that make up 80% of that GDP. Japan is another 12%, but their tariff is only 1.2% on US goods - trivial, and not a significant trade barrier.

So we don't need the TPP to "open these markets". Those markets are already wide open.

The wealthy want the TPP because it reduces risk to capital. Right now, if you buy a strip mine in some of the TPP countries, a new environmental law could close the mine and wipe out your investment. The TPP lets you "sue" the country with the new law and recover not only your investment, but your expected profits.

It means there's no way US capital can lose in these investments. It also means capital leaving the US instead of investing in our "safe" economy. So that angle isn't going to work to "sell" the treaty.

Obama and some others believe that the labor and environmental protections would be a large improvement over the status quo in sweatshop countries. But that isn't going to work to "sell" the treaty either. The costs to US workers are way too high, and people will ask for good-old trade barriers instead - pile up a hefty tariff unless they have those labor and environmental protections.

So that leaves lying as the only way to "sell" the treaty to the public.

The concept that the Corporate and Individual Investors should have their investments protected is absolutely not needed in a capitalistic economy.

Theoretically, the chance that changes in environmental laws would wipe out an investment will currently be priced into the return of investment in considering whether to make the investment. The capitalists should approve of this concept since it is leaving it to the market to value an investment. Investments that are risky because they have bad results on the population (worker abuse or environmental issues) will increase the likelihood that the investment will be made at the same time not prevent government from doing the right thing on workers rights and environmental law. Making the investor take the monetary risks in their investment seems like what investment is about regardless of the source of this risk be it competition, natural disasters, changes in technology, changes in consumers, or government actions.

Allowing risk free investments and tribunals will stifle needed government action in environmental and workers areas because of the threat that such laws will result in corporate lawsuits. These threats can be both explicit from industries and implicit in enacting any such new law.

Protecting investors simply is not needed whether one believes in the concept of investment capital or thinks it is a destructive system.

... and people of average intelligence even like Bush can fill in the rest...

We're NOT going to put up with the lies and subsequent SHIT again, wether or not the corporate PTB try to use a Democratic president to sell this shit to us again!

Plus six years of betrayal have hurt his credibility badly

pushing the trade deal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/17/mitch-mcconnell-tpp_n_7300842.html

They know there is no way a Republican could ever get away with something like this. The only way to pass NAFTA or TPP is to coopt a Democratic President to do it for them. I don't know what the Republicans held over Clinton's head to get NAFTA or what kind of blackmail/bribes are being employed to get Obama to carry TPP, but the old advice has never been more relevant.

Follow the money !!!

Another horrendous piece of Republican centric legislation they needed a Democratic president to sign off on.

But yep, that is the equation. And there are so many clear examples even on this board, of people that are willing to let a Democratic pol do what they want without question just because they are "Democrats" we should trust. That is why they needed someone like Obama to sign this through, so that those just wanting to cheer parties like they cheer football teams to enable them to do this.

...by offering to cut it himself. He has turned off the power to the deadly "3rd Rail".
Expect to see SS "on-the-Table" every time there is a budget negotiation.
(Unless, of course, Bernie or Elizabeth are elected President).

I have this awful feeling of dread in my stomach that
it is time for a Republican President to push us even further into a Police State. The Democrats have endorsed and co-signed the NSA, Spying on Americans, the War on Terror, The Patriot Act, the NDAA, the Drone War, the persecution of Whistle Blowers, attacking sovereign countries that haven't and can not threaten us,
and ever more Republican goals.They have scored BIG the last 20 years.

No more NAFTA-style trade deals!

Perfect ending line to this article.

What Stan won't tell you, or anyone else, is President Obama doesn't need his permission to sign this trade agreement.

the TPP- and by that I mean, so that it is in full force.

and at this point, there are still points of contention, most notably regarding Japan and Canada.

when they don't know if the negotiator can close the deal in our Congress.

I understand his fears of countering the big corporate donors that supported him if he doesn't push this through. Perhaps he believes in the neoliberal bullshit that you do, perhaps not. But he does feel beholden to the plutocrats and I would imagine he would at least try to assuage them by pushing this. If he fails, at least he could say he tried and could thus live.

His fear is palpable. His vitriol toward TPP opponents is much stronger than against the GOP obstructionism that stymied him at every turn hertofore. I tell ya', there's some serious desperation there. Not that you'd notice, being the tool you are.

people are too myopic to see it.

Don't know about him, but I find the xenophobia and greed among many opposed "palpable." Disgusting actually.

And he knows if he told the public what's really going on he'd probably get impeached the next day.

honed by one of the smartest men on the planet.

And because the naysayers just don't 'get it'. Not to disparage anyone here, by any means.

This is a visionary plan intended to pave the road for global trading protections for the next century; it's not about tomorrow and this generation, it's about future generations.

I get it, and I trust him to do the right thing. I don't see anyone else more capable of making sure that this deal is done correctly.

Because he isn't demagoguing on it 24/7? Just a couple of possibilities. . .

Then why is he in (and losing) a pissing match with Warren?

via tribunals made up of foreign Corporate Lawyers, who are empowered to levy unlimited fines and seize public assets as compensation, over laws and regulations that may impair their future imagined profits...with no ability to appeal the awards...

we recognize that TPP simply codifies Corporate Rule of the signing countries.

By the Corporation, Of the Corporation, For the Corporation...know your place, peasant.

Yep, it has to be important to our future to allow multinational corporations to sue the US.

Obama is in the Mitch McConnell camp on this, in cahoots with the righties, yet some, not many, seemingly 24/7, defend/rationalize his support of this travesty.

I'd hate being someone would would defend any politician no matter what, Blind loyalty is dangerous.