I'm comparing the process- and that just as it was obvious to many that voting yes on the IWR was a bad vote, so too is voting yes on TPA.

I've never come close to claiming that TPA and the resultant TPP are going to end the world or destabilize it or create a violent conflict. I have said and will continue to say that TPP is a bad deal that will lead to greater trade deficits, curtail access to life saving generic drugs, put into place pieces of the failed SOPA, create job losses, create further harm to the environment, create food safety issues, give corporations more power, etc.

does anyone think exporting the U.S. patent system is a great idea? Or giving corporations more power? Or potentially putting TPA into republican hands?

American troops.

Those who voted for it are not fit to be leaders after making such a horrific, tragic (for the victims) error.

The TPP vote is comparable in that a vast majority of the people here and in the other countries involved can see the devastating effects this will have on this and other nations.


We need leaders who have the ability to see when something is going to be so wrong for this country BEFORE it happens rather than ten years later.

Why are you supporting the TPP?

Maybe?

No one here is saying that TPP is going to result in people being thrown into gas chambers or WWIII is going to start.

But undemocratic? The Investor State Dispute Settlement part of it certainly is. Perhaps a better term would be Neo-Feudalism where most of the population is debt slaves or serfs dominated by wealth and the corporate state.

this is going to be good for this country?

NAFTA devastated the Working Class here. It allowed child labor to replace American jobs, it effectively ended manufacturing in this country, it created a HUGE Trade Deficit for this country. And those are just a few of the reasons why most Americans now oppose these Trade Bills.

So what will the TPP do for this country to fix eg, the huge trade deficit created by NAFTA?

"Here we are. Again."

No. There you are. Again. Conflating two things that are unrelated in any way. I'm sorry, but this is a terribly weak attempt.

You are reserving judgment- until it's a done deal. Because passing TPA, which I believe you support, means passing the TPP.

I find that to be the best approach to decision-making.

But, your weak attempt to draw a parallel between a trade agreement and a decision to go to war is over the top. The two things are not related in any way.

Please do not make statements about my thinking. You have no idea of what I am thinking, nor of what I think of the TPP. You appear to be so focused on fighting Obama and Hillary Clinton that you have to resort to false parallels. You post multiple times a day about your dislike of both Democrats. Please at least try to make your attacks somehow relevant and accurate.

This OP is way, way off any reasonable mark. You could self-delete it, but I suppose you will not.

That is when we get to see it. Or, I understand, some of it.

assuming the negotiations are complete. I'm sure it includes helpful things as well as non-helpful things. Right now, we're only hearing about the provisions that some think will be harmful. Only a tiny fraction of the contents of the TPP are available for discussion. For the rest, we have President Obama's words that the agreement will have benefits for the United States.

So, I'd like to learn more about the majority of its contents that are not being discussed. In every multinational agreement, developed during long negotiations, there are bound to be areas that are less beneficial to one country than to others. The US is not the only country involved with this agreement, so I do expect that there is a lot of give and take in it, as there is in any agreement based on negotiations with multiple interests.

For me, it's interesting that the opponents of the TPP are the same people who have been opposing President Obama since he first took office. That fact alone makes me even more interested in seeing what is in the entire agreement, not just the parts that support their opposition.

So, I'm waiting. I find that to be the only way to find out what the entire agreement contains. On one side is President Obama. On the other side are those who have been opposed to his administration since its first days. I'll wait and see before voicing my opinion. I don't opine on things I haven't seen completely.

you are saying that if you agree with, say, 51% of what is in it, then you will be OK with it? Because, on balance, it will be good? Or are there non-negotiable issues for you?

see what is in the entire agreement. That's all it says. Once I do, or at least hear from other sources what it contains, I'll form a judgment. I do not expect to agree with everything in it. I almost never agree with everything in anything. Percentages? I don't work that way, either.

I do have non-negotiable issues, but my opinion rarely changes the course of events, I've found. I expect that my opinion of the TPP will not affect whether or not it goes into effect. Still, once I have formed an opinion, I'll communicate it to my representatives.

I doubt if you will. I'm not going to keep my powder dry in the hope that I am wrong.

it.

Thanks to the leaks from Wikileaks, the objections to this Bill are based on WHAT WE KNOW. Now, how do you suggest we 'fix' the threat to our Environmental Laws and our Internet Freedom by WAITING UNTIL it's TOO LATE?

Once it is Fast Tracked, there is NOTHING even CONGRESS can do.

So if you don't mind those of us who pay close attention to these matters will continue to join the Majority of our Democratic Representatives who fighting hard, (and they have seen more of it than we have) against the Republicans to stop this disaster from passing.

Because I have a lot more faith in Democrats than in Mitch McConnell, for one thing.

that's why the battle over TPA is being fought. If the votes are there for TPA, they're there for the TPP. 100% of trade agreements brought under the auspices of a TPA have been passed.

And it's interesting that you completely dismiss the opinions of those who have read it- from members of Congress to an official USTR advisor. You dismiss the history of FTAs. You dismiss the three important late round draft chapters. You dismiss the cynical move reflected in TPA that takes money from Medicare to fund a job retraining program in the TPP. You dismiss the FACT that the U.S. has been ineffective and unwilling to pursue enforcement of labor infractions in other FTAs. You dismiss the alignment of interests opposed and pro.

There is more than enough evidence for any thinking person- let alone any thinking liberal- to oppose the TPP.

Your claim that those opposing it "are the same people who have been opposing President Obama since he first took office." is utterly false. Many of his strongest allies in Congress, Public Interest Groups that supported him, Environmental Groups that supported him, people like Paul Krugman, are LEADING the opposition. Why make stuff up????

You are trusting President Obama. That's all it boils down. Fine, but don't present misinformation about who opposes it.

upcoming vote, most Democrats KNEW it was based on lies, that it would be extremely bad for this country and were vehemently opposed to it.

But a few our 'leaders' went ahead and voted for it anyhow, for a variety of reasons, none of them good.

Later, after it was too late, most of them apologized, claiming various excuses none of which were accepted generally speaking.

Now we are at that point again, with this upcoming vote.

Why do you support the TPP? I never hear those who jump into threads in defense of the TPP give any reasons why those who oppose it are WRONG.

Personal attacks on the OP doesn't give us a reason to support it. That too reminds me of that other disastrous vote.

to my representatives. You keep bringing up the fact that I was not on this site at the time. That does not mean that I supported the Iraq War in any way.

I also do not support the TPP. I don't know enough about the entire negotiated agreement yet to make a decision. You are incorrect in saying that I support it. Neither do I know that its opponents are wrong. There is much more to the agreement than the small portion under discussion at this time. Most of its terms are as yet unknown.

As I said, President Obama supports it. Others oppose it. I have not yet decided, nor will I until I have additional information.

I know this much, though. We still can't look at it. Independent analysts cannot, either. When they can, which will happen if the TPA is passed, we'll learn more.

Unlike some, I am unwilling to take a strong position with insufficient information. Your opinion may differ from mine.

Some Democrats supported the IWR also, they were wrong and all have now admitted that. We do not want to see a repeat of having to listen ten years from now, to the few Dems who are wrong once again, AFTER it is too late.

I can only know by those who were here and on other Liberal sites, FIGHTING against the disaster in Iraq who was for or against it.

Democrats took a very strong position on the IWR but were betrayed by those in their own party who refused to stand up when it was necessary.

This issue has extremely strong opposition all over the world, not just here, same as last time.

But this time people have learned that it is necessary to take strong positions on important issues that will affect the lives of millions, perhaps billions of human beings.

I and most Democrats, oppose the Fast Tracking of any Bill. Which is why when Bush tried it in 2007 Dems made sure it failed.

Hopefully by taking as strong a position this time, it will fail again.

SOME Democrats oppose it. Not all.

You oppose it. Others on DU also oppose it. Not all, however, by any means.

Frankly, I do not take a strong position either way. I want to see what the entire TPP contains. That's what I want.

Now, we have come to the end of our discussion in this thread. As usual, I will not get into an endless round of bickering with you.

If you have no position on it, then why are you bothering with threads that strongly oppose it? Clearly you will have zero effect on any dem here, which is a majority of DUers, who represent the majority of Unions, Labor Groups, Environmental Groups, Net Neutrality Orgs, ALL Liberal Dem Orgs, Civil Libery groups etc, all Democratic organiations with hardly any exception.

The ONLY Dems who support this travesty and yes, we do know enough about it thanks to Whistle Blowers, are the usual Third Wayers, the few who are left in our party.

You will NOT see the entire TPP unless you are part of the Multi National Corporate Entities who helped write it.

That alone is reason enough to oppose it.

"I was mislead" while trying to pivot positions without admitting they made a mistake.

workers against child labor in Third World nations.

NAFTA is one of the main reasons to oppose the TPP.

Keep reminding us of that in case anyone forgets.

The TPP can only scrutinized if the contents are revealed to the American people, if they are presented to our Legislative Body without restrictions, if Amendments can be made to ensure that is as a FAIR TRADE bill from the POV of the American people.

You appear to be supportive of preventing all this from happening.

Once this bill is Fast Tracked, NOTHING can be negotiated, it is a Done Deal, in Secret with hundreds of Multinatational Corps knowing what the American people be deprived of, what is in the bill.

Which is why there is so much opposition to what the President is asking for right now.

What YOU say you are 'hoping for'. If the President gets his way on this vote, your hopes will come to nothing.

Some seem to value corporations over people. When will the corporations ever have enough money and power?