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cali

(114,904 posts)
Thu May 21, 2015, 05:19 AM May 2015

It's not Hillary's vote for the IWR so much, it's that she's a nationalist hawk.

I'm more concerned about the future than the past. Hillary's record and rhetoric are not reassuring- and neither is "she's better than a republican". The choice between bad and worse is not of much comfort. Her views on Afghanistan, Libya, Syria and Ukraine, are instructive. Based on her history, trusting her to keep the U.S. from launching military adventures as solutions, is folly. And arguing that she's a liberal on foreign policy flies against the evidence.


Hillary Clinton is running for president not only on her record as secretary of state, but also by presenting herself as tougher than Barack Obama on foreign-policy issues. With this stance, she presumably plans to distance herself from a president increasingly branded as “weak” in his approach to international issues, and to appeal to the supposedly more hawkish instincts of much of the electorate.

It is therefore necessary to ask a number of related questions, the answers to which are of crucial importance not just to the likely course of a hypothetical Clinton administration, but to the future of the United States in the world. These questions concern her record as secretary of state and her attitudes, as well as those of the US foreign-policy and national-security elites as a whole. They are also linked to an even deeper and more worrying question: whether the country’s political elites are still capable of learning from their mistakes and changing their policies accordingly. I was brought up to believe that this is a key advantage of democracy over other systems. But it can’t happen without a public debate—and hence mass media—founded on rational argument, a respect for facts, and an insistence that officials take responsibility for evidently disastrous decisions.

<snip>

Even more important and difficult than any of these problems may be the fact that designing a truly new and adequate strategy would require breaking with some fundamental American myths—myths that have been strengthened by many years of superpower status but that go back much further, to the very roots of American civic nationalism. These myths, above all, depict the United States as—in one of Clinton’s favorite phrases—the “indispensable nation,” innately good (if sometimes misguided), with the right and duty to lead humankind and therefore, when necessary, to crush any opposition.

<snip>

Neither in her book nor in her policy is there even the slightest evidence that she has, in fact, tried to learn from Iraq beyond the most obvious lesson—the undesirability of US ground invasions and occupations, which even the Republicans have managed to learn. For Clinton herself helped to launch US airpower to topple another regime, this one in Libya—and, as in Iraq, the results have been anarchy, sectarian conflict and opportunities for Islamist extremists that have destabilized the entire region. She then helped lead the United States quite far down the road of doing the same thing in Syria.

Clinton tries to argue in the book that she took a long, hard look at the Libyan opposition before reporting to the president her belief that “there was a reasonable chance the rebels would turn out to be credible partners”—but however long she looked, it is now obvious that she got it wrong. She has simply not understood the fragility of states—states, not regimes—in many parts of the world, the risk that “humanitarian intervention” will bring about state collapse, and the inadequacy of a crude and simplistic version of democracy promotion as a basis for state reconstruction. It does not help that the US record on democracy promotion and the rule of law—including Clinton’s own record—is so spotted that very few people outside the country take it seriously anymore.


<snip>

http://www.thenation.com/article/191521/hawk-named-hillary

31 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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It's not Hillary's vote for the IWR so much, it's that she's a nationalist hawk. (Original Post) cali May 2015 OP
"On the big issues, HRC is an afterthought; that's a good thing." Divernan May 2015 #1
Comparing HRC to other recent secretaries of state Divernan May 2015 #2
excellent article! m-lekktor May 2015 #10
Powell and Rice were better than Clinton as SOS? Dr Hobbitstein May 2015 #17
Author wrote she was "no better than" & gave his reasoning. Divernan May 2015 #18
Even no better than is bullshit. Dr Hobbitstein May 2015 #20
Foul language is not a credible substitute for reasoned debate. Divernan May 2015 #23
Republican-lite loses elections Android3.14 May 2015 #3
It IS the IWR vote reddread May 2015 #4
Yes, it IS Martin Eden May 2015 #8
This message was self-deleted by its author InAbLuEsTaTe May 2015 #11
no one said any such thing. Now how about addressing her history as a hawk? cali May 2015 #12
This message was self-deleted by its author InAbLuEsTaTe May 2015 #29
nm, you obviously mistook my comment for sarcasm, but if it makes you feel better, I deleted it. InAbLuEsTaTe May 2015 #30
amend to multi-"nationalist" corporatist reddread May 2015 #13
Margaret Thatcher's ghost swilton May 2015 #5
Thatcher, for good or bad, at least acted on her conscience. My fear is HRC lacks any true sense of Nuclear Unicorn May 2015 #14
Spot on! Thatcher had no need or use for consensus politics or a middle way. Divernan May 2015 #19
Yes, yes, and yes. Hillary Clinton ranges from Republican-lite to full Republican on foreign policy anti partisan May 2015 #6
Ya. She criticized Obama for not getting more involved in Syria and is skeptical of his Iranian deal Chathamization May 2015 #7
She's pretty typical of the Washington policy class. They don't learn because they leveymg May 2015 #9
well Robbins May 2015 #15
Our foreign policy has not changed significantly in 30 years. Maedhros May 2015 #28
I don't even know about THAT. She's just a DC insider, honorary BFEE member, who does whatever Doctor_J May 2015 #16
and Honduras MisterP May 2015 #21
"It's not Hillary's vote for the IWR so much" not so much. a decade ago, a different time. nt seabeyond May 2015 #22
exactly- which is why I focused on MORE than that vote. cali May 2015 #24
i commented on what i wanted to address. a point a lot of people do not get, on du. nt seabeyond May 2015 #25
your comment makes no sense in relation to the op cali May 2015 #26
ok seabeyond May 2015 #27
If Obama is "weak" Flying Squirrel May 2015 #31

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
1. "On the big issues, HRC is an afterthought; that's a good thing."
Thu May 21, 2015, 06:20 AM
May 2015
On the big issues, Clinton is an afterthought. That's a good thing.
by Robert Dreyfuss on June 12, 2012
http://www.thenation.com/blog/167992/opinionnation-hillary-clinton-state-department-hawk-or-humanitarian
Sub-headline:
It’s hard to think of recent secretary of state who’s been worse than Hillary Clinton. On the plus side, it’s hard to think of one who’s been more irrelevant.

Perhaps Barbara Crossette focuses so heavily on Clinton’s work on secondary and tertiary issues – such as Bangladesh, Myanmar, and women’s rights in the Congo – because as secretary of state Hillary Clinton has been stripped of nearly all the important portfolios. Since its start, the administration of Barack Obama has aggregated the making of foreign policy to a small group inside the White House. Maybe that’s because Obama didn’t trust either Clinton or Bob Gates, a Republican appointed by George W. Bush: Clinton because during the campaign she attacked Obama from the right on foreign policy, and Gates because of his GOP ties and shady past as a manipulator of intelligence at the CIA in the 1980s. In any case, it’s nearly universally accepted that when it comes to foreign policy, the White House runs the show. By and large – except for her hawkish advice, often in tandem with the secretary of defense and the military – irrelevant. On the big issues – Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Israel – Clinton is an afterthought.

On Iran, for instance, where war and peace looms in the balance in talks over Iran’s nuclear program, Clinton has hardly been a factor. Following the conclusion of the May 23 Baghdad talks between Iran and the P5+1, I asked Aaron David Miller, a longtime diplomat and Middle East expert, who was in charge in Washington on Iran, and he said that the policy is “made, controlled, and micromanaged by the White House.” That, he noted, is true of most important areas of work. Clinton, he said, “doesn’t own any issues.”

On Iraq, the administration’s point man for policy was Vice President Joe Biden. On Afghanistan and Pakistan, it was Richard Holbrooke and his successor, Marc Grossman, along with a team of exceedingly independent-minded ambassadors who owed little or nothing to Clinton. Cameron Munter, the outgoing U.S ambassador to Pakistan, “was an ally of Richard Holbrooke, Obama’s larger-than-life envoy to the region before he died in 2010.” And while Obama relied too heavily, especially in 2009, on tendentious advice from the generals on Afghanistan, if Clinton played any role at all it was echo the military brass.

It’s hard to think of single major accomplishment of Clinton since she took office. To the extent that America’s image in the world has improved since 2009, it’s almost entirely due to the fact that allies and adversaries alike saw Obama himself as a breath of fresh air after the heavy-handed, bungling warmongers of the previous administration. Crossette says that Clinton “has done more than any other Obama administration official to chip away at the image of the United States lefty behind by George W. Bush.” But that’s faint praise. All the softening up was done when Bush packed his suitcases, and – at least at the beginning – Obama had most of the world’s leaders at hello.

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
2. Comparing HRC to other recent secretaries of state
Thu May 21, 2015, 06:25 AM
May 2015
Crossette asks us to think about Thomas Jefferson and John Quincy Adams, but I’ve forgotten whatever I once knew about ancient history to understand why she mentions them. As far as more recent secretaries of state, I find myself going all the way back to Al Haig (1981-1982) to come up with one worse than Clinton. Condi Rice, for all her faults (and there are many), presided over the exile of the neoconservatives from the Bush administration. Colin Powell, who disastrously served as the White House’s mouthpiece in the run up to war in Iraq, at least argued internally against that reckless fiasco. Madeleine Albright, perhaps as hawkish as Clinton, didn’t succeed in drawing Bill Clinton into major wars outside the Balkans mess. And the array of white men who preceded them – Warren Christopher, Larry Eagleburger, James Baker and George Shultz -- were Cold War hawks but mostly realists who understood that the United States is limited by balance-of-power politics abroad. If Clinton is not worse than any of them, she’s certainly no better.

Crossette cheers Clinton’s role in promoting “the office of global women’s issues at the State Department” as well as her efforts to “expand diplomatic action on lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights.” All to the good – but hardly the big-think issues that a secretary of state ought to focus on. If, in extricating the United States from the Afghan quagmire, the United States has to finesse its commitment to the rights of women in that exceedingly male-dominated, tribal society, will Clinton be the grease under the wheels on the exit ramp or the anchor that entangles us further?


http://www.thenation.com/blog/167992/opinionnation-hillary-clinton-state-department-hawk-or-humanitarian

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
18. Author wrote she was "no better than" & gave his reasoning.
Thu May 21, 2015, 10:51 AM
May 2015

You start right out misquoting the article. The author did not say "better than". He said "no better than".
You are more than free to debate his reasoning.

Condi Rice, for all her faults (and there are many), presided over the exile of the neoconservatives from the Bush administration.

Colin Powell, who disastrously served as the White House’s mouthpiece in the run up to war in Iraq, at least argued internally against that reckless fiasco.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
20. Even no better than is bullshit.
Thu May 21, 2015, 12:18 PM
May 2015

This author clearly has their head up their ass if they find condo rice and Colin Powell on the same level as HRC.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
3. Republican-lite loses elections
Thu May 21, 2015, 06:27 AM
May 2015

In the fast food world, HRC is the BK to the GOP's MCD.

You want fries with that?

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
4. It IS the IWR vote
Thu May 21, 2015, 06:51 AM
May 2015

but it is because she is a "nationalist"/corporate minded WAR HAWK that she cast that HORRIFIC vote.
NOT because she was deceived by deceivers.
which would be worse, actually, if that is possible.
she is a steadfast supporter of coups against countries like Honduras.
just a sample of what she is all about.

each and every piece of her past says enough.
supporters cant begin to discuss her record.
they have to disparage liberal critics and make ridiculous claims.
sad.

Response to reddread (Reply #4)

Response to cali (Reply #12)

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
13. amend to multi-"nationalist" corporatist
Thu May 21, 2015, 09:21 AM
May 2015

her hunger for H1B workers speaks clearly of her priorities.
how can voters be expected to accept that sort of economic treason?

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
14. Thatcher, for good or bad, at least acted on her conscience. My fear is HRC lacks any true sense of
Thu May 21, 2015, 09:27 AM
May 2015

principle. I think she voted for the IWR so as to not be seen as weak in the GWOT. We don't need a Follower-in-Chief.

Divernan

(15,480 posts)
19. Spot on! Thatcher had no need or use for consensus politics or a middle way.
Thu May 21, 2015, 11:12 AM
May 2015
On this day in 1979, the British press gave its reaction to one of the most important speeches of Margaret Thatcher's political career. Known as the 'this is my faith' speech, the Conservative leader comprehensively rejected consensus politics and the middle way.
I disagreed with Maggie, but she did have the courage of her convictions.

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/from-the-archive-blog/2013/apr/17/thatcher-margaret-speech-cardiff-1979

What a hoot to imagine HRC giving a "this is my faith" speech. It would have to labeled "This is my focus group's latest statistically significant consensus, subject to change as the political winds shift or my donors' millions dictate." If Margaret Thatcher was The Iron Lady; HRC is the malleable Gumby of politics. Her focus groups leave her playing a political policy form of Twister - that old Milton Bradley game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twister_%28game%29
It is played on a large plastic mat that is spread on the floor or ground. The mat has four rows of large colored circles on it with a different color in each row: red, yellow, blue and green. A spinner is attached to a square board and is used to determine where the player has to put their hand or foot. The spinner is divided into four labeled sections: right foot left foot, right hand and left hand. Each of those four sections is divided into the four colors (red, yellow, blue and green). After spinning, the combination is called (for example: "right hand yellow&quot and players must move their matching hand or foot to a circle of the correct color. In a two-player game, no two people can have a hand or foot on the same circle;


So the green circles are for the environment; the red circles are pro-war; the blue cirlces are pro women & children (except the ones in the war zones or the ones in countries giving money to the Clinton foundation but which treat women like chattel); the yellow ones are profiteering corporations/One Percenters. You get the picture?

Chathamization

(1,638 posts)
7. Ya. She criticized Obama for not getting more involved in Syria and is skeptical of his Iranian deal
Thu May 21, 2015, 07:14 AM
May 2015

She's set herself out to be more hawkish than him on foreign policy. It seems to be something that many are ignoring because it's inconvenient for them.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
9. She's pretty typical of the Washington policy class. They don't learn because they
Thu May 21, 2015, 08:34 AM
May 2015

don't make mistakes (only "unintended consequences", even if policy failure is widely foreseen by dissidents) and there is no accountability (ever, for those at the top) and no alternative (to them). If there are consequences to their repeated failures, it's always someone else's problem.

Too big to fire. They can only be promoted.

Robbins

(5,066 posts)
15. well
Thu May 21, 2015, 09:32 AM
May 2015

I have said there isn't much difference between Hillary and republicans.They are all hawks.

I remember well Bill Clinton on foreigen policy wasn't that different than Poppy Bush.

Many of us were hoodwhinked by Obama thinking we would get out of middle east.Even before iris we only pulled out of iraq because government wouldn't grant immunity to Us forces.Now after years of funding and training iraqi forces we are more in middle east than ever.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
28. Our foreign policy has not changed significantly in 30 years.
Thu May 21, 2015, 04:21 PM
May 2015

Each successive Administration, from Reagan to Obama, has continued the policies of the previous one while perhaps adding a wrinkle or two.

Bernie Sanders represents the only real chance to alter the course of American foreign policy.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
16. I don't even know about THAT. She's just a DC insider, honorary BFEE member, who does whatever
Thu May 21, 2015, 09:41 AM
May 2015

the rich want done in DC. I can't find a single issue on which she has any conviction. She is either silent, or has flip-flopped on every issue of importance. Certainly her pro-TPP stance indicates she doesn't mind ceding our laws to transnationals. She voted for the IWR because that was the thing to do at the time. Now it's a clusterfuck and she regrets it.

Just a politician, and she will not fight the Republican congress in 2017 at all. She'll make Obama look tough in contrast.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
24. exactly- which is why I focused on MORE than that vote.
Thu May 21, 2015, 03:53 PM
May 2015

it's the entirety of her record on military use. care to comment on that?

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