General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBernie, it won't be good enough until
your campaign brings pandering to HRC's level. How are we supposed to get behind all this sincere economic woo? It won't be good enough until you collect tons of cash from corporations, pay lip service to social justice for minorities, and hide from reporters. Then we'll know you're the real deal!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)He seems to have sincere feelings about those issues. He has to excite those groups if he wants to win, but that doesn't mean pandering. He speaks about economic issues he cares about and excites a lot of people. He can speak about discrimination issues he genuinely cares about and also excite a lot of people. I want him to win, and I plan to vote for him, but I recognize that he won't win if women and people of color vote heavily for Clinton.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)reason that black people think that they are left out of the plan? Aren't these issues also important to them?
They are to my family.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)but as a woman I expect a candidate to speak specifically to the issue of abortion rights. A candidate who doesn't talk about that, even if I agree with them about other issues, hasn't given me confidence. I suspect people of color feel the same way about racism. They want it specifically talked about and on a regular basis. I have read his voting record and I know he cares about these issues. He can talk about it without pandering.
Economic issues aren't enough when your civil rights are threatened. You need those problems handled too.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)view. I just plain expect both he and Hillary to continue to back these long time Democratic issues.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)but he has to excite these groups of people if he wants to get them to the polls and vote for him. I do want to see him do that. I don't think he will. Or maybe he will change tracks and talk about these kinds of issues more as we move toward the primaries.
The fear is the Supreme Court. What if he finds a wonderful candidate as far as economic issues go (let's say personhood of corporations, etc.) but who is anti-abortion? Or who isn't strong on voting rights or police issues? I don't think he'd nominate anyone like that, but people have to see that. He has to regularly talk about these issues to gain people's confidence.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)The Clinton campaign has to know they are in HUGE trouble after that. This is a pre-emptive attempt at deflection. When the 2008 reminders start coming in, they will say, "but Hillary has Black friends and Sanders doesn't."
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It appears to me that they remember and still support her over Sanders. It is a big thing, the level of support she has, and it isn't because people of color have bad memories. It will be difficult for Sanders to overcome this.
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)So, yes, I would say they have largely forgotten.
Remember every Rightist saying on 9-12-2001, "bet you're glad your guy didn't win now"? The response to that was obvious. Yet, I never heard or read the obvious response to that in the media even once on that day.
Most people readily forget what they don't want to remember.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)but as I'm white I can't speak to this. I know that 87% (or whatever the number is) of African American voters support Clinton. I don't think 87% have horrible memories. I remembered that and it didn't even directly affect me. There must be something else about Clinton that gains their confidence, or something about Sanders that doesn't gain their confidence.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)have you run out of good things to say about Bernie and now you have to attack Hillary's campaign process?
Your ass will be saved when Hillary appoints 4 liberal Justices to the Supreme Court. She can only do that by competing against the right on equal terms and that takes money in 2016.
So go pat your conscience on the back for being a good Bernie supporter talking about the money he won't be spending, not because of his virtue but because you can't run for President on $10 contributions. He can't raise enough to enter the General election campaign. Your day in the sun is limited!
Response to upaloopa (Reply #2)
99Forever This message was self-deleted by its author.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)BeanMusical
(4,389 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)You would become educated enough to know this is an area she is not pandering. Don't let that get in the way of your little screed.
This is straight up Fox News shit here.
"pay lip service to social justice for minorities, and hide from reporters. "
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I'm sure he has sincere feelings about each of them, and I'm sure Clinton does as well.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I seem to have the ability to stand up for Clinton while not bashing Sanders. I also seem to have the ability to stand up for Sanders without attacking Clinton.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)reprehensible OP that inspired this one?
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I like that you are able to directly link to your inspiration. We should all be this honest when our petty side shows. Kudos for that.
I don't do tricks for people making blatant right wing arguments. "It won't be good enough until you collect tons of cash from corporations, pay lip service to social justice for minorities, and hide from reporters. Then we'll know you're the real deal!"
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Considering that sanders has actually DONE things to combat racism both as an activist and a legislator...
I rate doing things to fight racism far more important than a few platitudes thrown out on it before running from hard questions about economics.
Besides, Bernie was among the first of politicians to speak out on Ferguson. Pretending that he doesn't have a record or whatever is bull. And anyone who spins to "optics" are the very ones rubbing mud on the telescopic lens.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)But optics are so much more important dontcha know.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)because he won't win with how things are going. I don't know what he has to do to change that, but I feel confident he can.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)You are judging a single 35 minute speech. One speech. You are trying to say he can't win because of something ginned up by 20 people on DU. People need to learn about who he is and what his issues* plural are. As Hillary ran a racist campaign in 2008, plenty of people remember that, trust me.
PS. I see your avatar changed overnight.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Sanders' dad was the only survivor in his family of the holocaust, this may have influenced his early fight for equal rights.
In his second year of college, for example, he fought for equal housing rights for blacks with whites.
Check it out.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... is a great way to get those same people (who Bernie would desperately need to win the primary) to switch from Hillary to Bernie.
There is a reason the progressive wing of the party struggles to win elections.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)insulting those they want to encourage to their side. they kick some of us outta their side, lol
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)You do realize that, right? I could probably go to the Greatest page and find a couple right now.
It was only a matter of time until some of Hilary's supporters returned fire.
Look ... feel free to believe that democrats who already like Hillary will switch and support Bernie in the primary if you attack her more.
That strategy will be about as effective as demanding some progressive launch a primary challenge against Obama back in 2011.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Only Hillary can win voters. The opinions of her supporters aren't a factor.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And to beat her in the primary, you'll have to get lots and lots of them to switch from her, to him.
This is simply a fact.
So what you should definitely do attack her non-stop, and talk down to those folks.
That will definitely sway them.
And I'm the one with silly notions.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)he is persuasive enough to make converts for Hillary? Most adults will weigh the words and deeds of the candidates themselves. Only the weakest of minds will be swayed by posts on an internet forum. Yeah it's a silly notion. I notice you didn't admonish the poster of the "Not good enough, Bernie" OP for the same thing.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Which is why most Democrats already believe she'd beat any Republican. They believed it to be true in 2008, and they believe it now.
It is YOU have who needs to convert people away from Hillary, and over to Bernie, in the primary. Or not. Its completely up to you.
The first issue those people will care about when they "weight the facts" and compare the candidates will be "Which one WILL ABSOLUTELY ensure that the GOP does not take the White House."
That is the top priority, because a candidate's positions on every other issue are MOOT if they lose the general.
And so, I do not need to convince any one to "switch" to Hillary. I'd happily vote for her. And if Bernie were to win the primary, I'd happily vote for him.
It is Bernie's supporters who will need to do the convincing if they intend on winning the primary.
This is a straight-forward math problem.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)The idea that I will make people favor Sanders by being nice on DU is lame.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Clearly, that's not going to happen, and it would be silly for me to suggest it.
What you need to be, if you want to help Sanders I mean, is be smarter in terms of how you position Sanders relative to potential GOP opponents.
I really do not expect the members of the DU Combustible Hair Club to figure any of this stuff out. They'll scream about the need for better more progressive candidates, and do nothing to advance that cause.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)You've got a whole fantasy world going. How do I position Sanders relative to potential candidates? That's Sanders' job. And at whom would I be aiming this effort, suggestible DUers? You don't really think the crap you post in here is helping Hillary in the real world do you?
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)I don't need to help Hillary.
Read my posts in our exchange ... do I promote her in those posts? nope.
I'm describing a math problem.
A math problem you clearly do not understand.
I think Bernie probably does get this math problem. And I bet he knows he can't change the math on his own.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Circular logic fail.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)The math problem I describe is about the real world.
But then DU is not the real world, is it.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Your posts in this thread are a road to nowhere.
JI7
(89,264 posts)He got support from a large number of democrats who loved her and still did love her when they voted for Obama.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)Some of Bernie's loudest supporters here don't get this simple fact.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Dismissing minority concerns, ignoring our thoughts and beliefs and pissing all over us as a constituency is apparently the in-thing to assure your candidate's presidential win in 2016. Who knew?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)-- He became leader of an NAACP rally called the Congress of Racial Equality at a time when most civil rights activists were black.
-- He was arrested while demonstrating for desegregated public schools in Chicago.
--In his second year at college in 1962, the 20-year-old from Brooklyn stood on the steps of University of Chicago administration building and railed in the wind against the colleges housing segregation policy:
We feel it is an intolerable situation, when Negro and white students of the university cannot live together in university owned apartments,
Source: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026741111
peecoolyour
(336 posts)crowdsourcing his speeches and policy positions to the people who brought the biggest briefcases full of cash.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)There you have it folks in a fuckin nutshell. This here is the exact bullshit that will cost someone the election. Do you think we want fuckin lip service about our social justice? Fuckin clueless ass white privileged assholes that don't have a clue about social justice. You can be a black or hispanic millionaire & still not receive social justice. This is this fuckin problem economic status has nothing to do with social justice & you people that have never suffered through this shit seem to think it's a big fuckin joke.
So keep making your snide little comments & playing your silly ass little games but social justice isn't something we are asking to be pandered to about, this is our's & our children's lives your talking about. It's not a fuckin joke.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)your post. absolutely. it is so simple and basic. it has been said repeatedly and YET... hte very simple words do not seem to sink in.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)The OP clearly thinks "pandering to minorities" is just a nonsensical misnomer.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Very strongly worded. I hope you don't get hidden because that would be crap. People need to hear this stuff - that people are worried about their and their children's lives.
(If you do get hidden, take solace in the fact that your post wil get read 100x more if "this post was hidden by jury decision" becomes the subject line.)
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)I'm tired of sitting back & getting kicked around. I've gotten 2 hides in the time I've been here & they've both been for complete nonsense. If I'm going to get one it might as well be for something I believe in.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Nowhere do I suggest the problems and struggles of minorities in this country are a joke or unimportant or any other bullshit characterization you can dream up. I take issue with the notion that HRC is the de facto champion of these issues, and that by comparison Bernie Sanders is not committed to social justice. Everything else is your projection.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)"Bernie, it won't be good enough until
your campaign brings pandering to HRC's level. How are we supposed to get behind all this sincere economic woo? It won't be good enough until you collect tons of cash from corporations, pay lip service to social justice for minorities, and hide from reporters. Then we'll know you're the real deal!"
You brought up paying lip service to social justice for minorities. Just because your candidate has laser focus on economic issues & can't seem to bring social issues into the forefront of part of his campaign is not my problem. You making light of said social justice for minorities is bullshit & you deserved to be called on it.
Economic justice will not fix the social justice atrocities that are occurring in our country & I'm tired of clueless ass people trying to equate, negate, or make light of the situation.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)I'm calling bullshit on the cynical attempts to paint Senetor Sanders as racially insensitive. It's complete garbage given his record and positions. Hillary talks the talk, but does she walk the walk? We'll see.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Your OP states...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6742469
This is the second aggressive and abusive post from giftedgirl77 in this thread. I understand if she doesn't like the OP, but she seems to be trying to provoke.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu May 28, 2015, 04:49 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Oh look! Another VanillaRhapsody/MaggieD sock. :yawn:
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Clueless people need to be told they are clueless
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is not about giftedgirl not liking the OP. This is about a member of DU's ever shrinking number of minority members screaming to be heard among the clueless fuckwits that decry even DISCUSSING Bernie Sanders' record on race. You may be trying to run off the handful of minority posters that can still stomach to post here, but I sure as hell will NOT be helping you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)no fucking shit juror 7
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Provoke, Provoke, Provoke... Give it a rest... lady.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Huh?
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Is is because I'm a female minority speaking my mind bluntly & to the point? Was I supposed to use sir/ma'am in my response, or am I just not allowed to stand up for social justice in this country? Is economic justice the only priority?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that would be it. you know. more with sugar than vinegar? be nice, play nice.
i thought your posts just fine.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)I was referring to the confused, dillusional politicians that you claim should just "pander" to minorities on social justice issues.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Which politicians, doing what? You're just ass covering with blatant bullshit now. Zero integrity.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)If you would have read it you would've seen that none of it was directed to you but I'm done trying to further elaborate.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I know many POC that will never ever forgive Hillary for her campaign of 2008.
That is from LISTENING to people of color too.
They are not monolithic (as I know you know).
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)in conversation and thought
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)are talking is lying fucking smears in a ln effort to circle the wagons around someone who doesn't have a better record on this or any other issue and plenty of inferior positions? No shame in Sanders game going back decades in the fucking trenches which I bet you are loathe to acknowledge because Bernie might shine even more brightly than your corporate star.
Don't get cocky, you have no advantage here no matter how lamely you pretend.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Tell it! Shake the haters and the loonies off and TELL IT.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)Just kidding. Relax, everyone. Move your cursor away from the Alert button and back away slowly.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)But so far, beyond messaging, there's really no reason to conclude her commitment to social justice is greater than Bernie Sanders.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)You know, on the level of "I want to empower communities and families".
He also needs to tell us what his most inspirational bible passage is.
Only then will he begin to approach the wonkish, concise, issue and detail clear policy proposal level of certain other candidates' campaigns.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)Now he's responsible for slavery!
We got to see the PUMAs in action 8 years ago. Well, guess what, they're back, and more evil than ever.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)*And* deploy a dishonest smear machine. The corporate candidacy is certainly making its MO clear early on.
Makes Bernie's honest, representative candidacy even more refreshing.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)That's why she's avoiding any discussion of the TPP. To distract from her silence on this issue, we get accusations that Bernie is ignoring minority concerns.
I assume this was a talking point distributed by the campaign. Bernie's 97% rating by the NAACP puts the lie to it.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)claiming Sanders doesn't care about social issues and civil rights because he didn't specifically address them in his kickoff speech. One speech. And there were white people there: shudder.
Did I miss Clinton's great rousing civil rights speech when she did her announcement? I mean, from all the posters who assure me she is a civil rights warrior, I can't wait to see it!
Oh wait, she didn't address that at all. She hasn't given an actual campaign speech to share her platform. She put out a video! With gay people and black people and brown people!! Well then it's all settled. I mean, who were we to ever doubt? Come on people, the primary is ovah!
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Appreciate your point of view and level headed commentary.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)And now I'm being told to pipe down, it was all in my head. Because white people's concern for the dark peoples is so much more important. It's like a charity ball up in here.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)There were yachts in the background so how could he possibly care about poor people?
Seriously, you are on fire in these threads, kudos.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)That was code because black people are afraid of the water!