People of color wanting to be safe from the police- are chasing an illusion?
Wow- please do elaborate.

One cannot exist without the other.

Without social justice, there can be no economic justice.
Without economic justice, there can be no social justice.

They are not mutually exclusive. The 'one vs the other' meme is manufactured outrage.

exactly, and it can't be said enough.

We need to be suspicious of people who are portraying these issues as "versus."

Is a response to being told by some DUers that social issues are less important. People have made a point of separating the two, or arguing that the economic issues take precedence. Now they want to pretend they never created that distinction in post after post. It's a little late for that.

A handful of people on DU, who have crafted these 'social VS economic' OPs have done this on purpose, it's bait. I have pointed out once or twice that the same people post virtually identical OPs every few weeks 'Can we just have an honest discussion about Social issues VS economic issues???' I have asked why they do this, and what they do in response is accuse me of having 'financial interests'. They are liars and bullies of malicious intent.
When not doing 'social VS economic' materials, the same folks make endless anti gay and anti woman OPs. Ask them why, they either refuse to answer or post some emoticons. In threads they like, they post this: Huge K and R!!! Thank You!!!!
They are constructs, contrivances and fakes.

Except Hillary supporters. They don't want to discuss matters of economics because Third Way® economic policies are right wing and right wing economic policies erode civil rights. They are stuck in a catch 22. What they see doesn't match what they believe. It is cognitive dissonance.

It is a non issue invented by people with nothing to go on.

Results in charity rather than empowerment in the best case scenario. Free bread in the soup line. Substance abuse counselling on the reservation...continue to treat the symptom, when your are causing the disease. Then give yourself a life time achievement award for running sheltered workshops. The false narrative revolves around the notion that these are somehow separate systems. They are both subsumed under the suprasystem of Human Rights.

They are very transparent.

conservative" down the nation's and the party's throat?

Where was your outcry at that absurd snake oil being sold for years, dear "Marxist" friend of the status quo? No your squealing only comes as response to the way too little pushback against that absurd ideology in our party.

There is no reason to pretend anything and fuck no we didn't create this divide, that was generated by your greedy asshole "fiscally conservative" friends. We just said their happy horseshit won't fly anymore.

However, you have been among those in the past who have dismissed social justice as less than economic issues.
Frankly, it never occurred to me to separate the two until I saw people here do so, dismissing social issues as less.

I have never dismissed any kind of justice.

It is a non issue that only exists in your head.

You haven't said that Third Way Dems support social issues but not the right economic ones?

Because 'Third Way®' economic policies are right wing and empower the oligarchy, which erodes civil rights.

Those who push them are stuck in a catch 22. It is cognitive dissonance.

In short the economic policies that you support, erode the civil rights that you support. That is your dilemma, thus you try to ignore those economic policies, and only talk about civil rights. It is cognitive dissonance 101.

I have never dismissed any form of justice, and you know it. They are not mutually exclusive, which I have repeated ad nauseum.

For me, social justice are the social issues that you have in fact dismissed as Third Way.

Nobody has 'dismissed' social issues as 'Third Way®'. You just made that up too.

Your economic beliefs undermine your civil rights beliefs. That is my point. Cognitive dissonance.

driving while black or Hispanic, or heaven forbid, worse. For example, Chris Rock puts a selfie online whenever he gets stopped for no reason. As he is the first to say, "And I'm rich."

However, I don't want to pretend to be able to speak for DU's African American members. I'm only guessing.

So yeah, I'm not buying this money solves everything. Humans being what they are - for every step forward there is a backlash to try to put us back in place.

Nobody has said that. That has nothing to do with anything.

It is a phony issue. Are you guys so devoid of ammunition to fight back with that you have to invent these silly vague memes to rant about?

you just make it up as you go. if that doesnt work for you, you call it nonsense and manufactured outrage.

how serious is anyone suppose to take you

And nobody takes it seriously.

if i read correctly last night, if sanders believes economic address social, and he is not passionate about social, he is dead in the water.

He can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time, and he has a vast record on issues of social justice, and you already know that.

You are being dishonest.

You read incorrectly. It is a manufactured 'issue'.

Those "nobodies" do not belong here. They shld decamp to a CT website where their paranoid fantasies are given their due.

Nobody takes the manufactured outrage seriously, except the tiny group who made it up.

Third way economic policies wreck social justice, because they empower the oligarchy who then take away civil rights in order to hold onto power. We are seeing it now. The civil and voter rights acts are being ruined by the oligarchy. The Oligarchy are buying elections.

That is the dilemma. Many of those who invented this meme support 'centrist' economic policies that make the oligarchy richer and thusly erode civil rights. It is cognitive dissonance, IMHO.

Saying they don't want to share their victim card.
If you are too thick headed to see you the resentment toward women and POC expressed here lately, then you're fucking blind. Sad to see if any of these paranoid fantasies stick to Sander's candidacy. I hope he doesn't get linked with the regressive and bizarre conspiracy theorists here. He's already in danger of being painted as a loon, and cannot afford to lose huge segments of support due to "supporters" who completely dismiss those voters concerns. Good luck with that.

You just made that up.

Embarrassed this shit flies here. Good luck winning shit without us.

Another newly invented meme to attack with. Another manufactured outrage.

Manufactured outrage is manufactured outrage. It has nothing to do with women or POC. It has to do with inventing issues out of whole cloth to attack opposing candidates and their supporters with.

Are wanting to discuss racial and sexual discrimination?
Lol, weve been admonished to get in the back of the bus by smarter people than you for years. This troll thing is hilarious though. I'm sure it won't spread far enough to hurt Bernies campaign and his people will help him with wider outreach despite your pleas to write off significant voting blocks as trolls.

Those same people refuse to discuss economic issues. That is the crux of it. Why do you think they won't discuss economic issues?

Because right wing economic policies HARM women and POC. Those policies empower the oligarchy, who then take away rights and buy elections, as they are doing right now. See the disconnect?

The term for it is cognitive dissonance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

We multi-task.

style "questions".

Now, you may be moving along to try the same lame tactics elsewhere but what you are is Turd Wayer of the Mayberry Machavellian variety playing at Trojan Horse "support" to circle the wagons for your class interests in hopes that you will get full value for them like a white man of the same level.

re President Obama and now engaging in hero worship re Sanders.

I do support Sanders. I'm from a city hurt by NAFTA, and I'm the child of union members. I am very concerned about economic issues. I am equally concerned about social issues and I expect to see them explicity addressed and given the same weight.

His record on social and economic justice issues are stellar.

You assume too much, and ignore what is inconvenient. Not worth my time.

nt

That is a pretty twisted fantasy you got going there.
POC and women on DU are all a bunch of paid trolls, ha ha. Pssst - were also using the NSA to spy on you!!!!! and.... chemtrails! Lots and lots of chemtrails!

You obviously can't see the forest for the trees, so it is useless talking about it with you.

Have a productive day.

Will notice. Thank god at this point Sanders is not taking your dismissive tack. But if he continues to ignore us, he will fail big time.

we are a majority of the electorate.

The majority of Hillary supporters aren't pushing this either. About 10 Hillary supporters here are, ad nauseum. They are essentially throwing turds at the wall to see if anything sticks, then getting angry when it slides down the wall and plops on the floor.

You get the last word, have a nice day!

and we're not all Clinton supporters.

out of their mind.

As to Bernie - I do not hear him saying that money solves everything. Nor does he say the two issues are separate issues. They are so damned intertwined that I for one do not see how to separate them.

social is thru economic. so some of us are questioning it. now, it appears it was an OP. we need to hear from sanders.

nt

It's a piss-poor argument from supporters of a candidate who has NO supporting arguments on the economic and MIC war-hawk side, who is NEGATIVE on the economic and MIC war-hawk side, and so have to smear with disgusting innuendo. An innuendo that is totally untrue, and when examined it is immediately learned that the fact is the exact opposite. In fact Bernie has excellent ratings on social issues, better than the candidate who's supporters are resorting to this smear tactic.

But they went there, and they've doubled and tripled down, and they have support of the site owners. So that's where it's at.

Not sure there's a point here at all.

If you want to do it right, you would be comparing that against an affluent or middle class black community.

My point is that social justice with no economic justice is not sufficient and if I were as silly as some, I might make up some stupid term like "trickle down economic justice" and say that the other side wants us to think that social justice is somehow supposed to magically trickle down into economic justice.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I am not as simple-minded as that.

The proposed comparison treats each group separately, which is ignoring the social and cultural disparities that still exist.

You can literally see cultural segregation in the geographic racial maps: http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html

Redlining is very real, and it is a wholly social issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining

"Yeah, you can have your cheap rent, but you gotta live in this area over here."

"Yeah, you can get benefits, but you have to live in a certain zip code, otherwise you're clearly too affluent to get benefits."

Here's a fascinating and long read about how the elites (see: white people, who, again, make 12x more than black people) do it: http://techcrunch.com/2015/01/10/east-of-palo-altos-eden/

I've seen it said before that we should follow white Europe's example as far as economics, but then you see the rise of far right wing nationalism (fascism) in Europe over immigrants and non-whites, and it becomes to me a very dangerous argument. Yes the economic structure is good, but it must be tempered with strong social and cultural diversity standards if it's going to work.

The fucked up thing is that we're going to get a basic income regardless as automation begins to take over. Everyone's going to be covered. But we'll still have this very real racial and ethnic segregation going on. If we don't attempt to fix it the problems won't just resolve themselves because everyone is getting a basic income.

(Now, of course, not a single candidate has mentioned this issue of automation, but I assume they'd look crazy if they did, but you have to know policy wonks are sitting around talking about it. Brookings recently posted a study about how automation is the reason for the lackluster recovery, for example. A concept Larry Summers and the Third Way can't even wrap their heads around.)

That map doesn't make your case. It shows that the original concentration of Blacks was in the southeast and the original concentration of Hispanics was in the southwest. The migration of Blacks and Hispanics out of their original areas of concentration have been to the large city areas where the opportunities and jobs are. Whites have also migrated out of the rural areas toward the cities for job opportunities. Asians have always moved into the cities on arrival.

If you want to do social engineering, i don't think there are too many Blacks, Hispanics, or Asians that could be enticed to move up to, say, northern Maine to "create diversity" and change your map.

It shows that there are very clear demarcations with race relations while white people are spread out. This is due largely to redlining.

In fact, the exact opposite of what you claim is happening, minorities are moving out of cities (particularly the high poverty areas), in order to get themselves better opportunities. But it's a very slow process. (And in some cases white gentrification is the cause for that.)

Here's an article as proof: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/census/2011-05-20-chicago-blacks-exodus_n.htm

But I know that there is a very good study using census data that shows, visually, how minorities are leaving the cities for better opportunities. If you want I can find the study but a cursory glance right now isn't giving a good result.

Incidentally, that link I posted shows a huge spike in black people in... of all places... Maine.

This isn't really about social engineering, so much accepting that the problems still exist. Paying for things like, you know, daycare, would go a damn long way.

The Blacks moving out of Detroit are moving to the inner suburbs of Detroit. Very, very few of them are trying to move to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Redlining, loan discrimination, etc are hampering their ability to move to the suburbs. If they wanted to, they could move to the UP where real estate is pretty cheap but there is little up there to attract them. There are few barriers to moving out into the boondocks, just little interest.

They're horribly racist. If I were a person of color, I would absolutely not move to the UP. It's not a friendly place to people of color.

I think it's BS that people think he doesn't care about social issues. This is the same argumentation tactic people used to bash Obama over. Sanders has his own unique message.

And, actually, I think some Bernie supporters are falling for the clickbait strawmen, identifying with BS.

My point is that "social justice with no economic justice is not sufficient".

The issue is that there are now quite a few DU'ers who have decided that economic justice is paramount. It takes precedence over social justice.

And African American DU'ers and their supporters are trying to point out that economic justice won't immediately stop black men from getting shot by police.

Wow, so much wrong with this- I'm blown away.
And kicking for wider exposure.

Poverty is poverty, poor mostly white communities and poor mostly black communities have the same problems that plague low-income areas; little to no way out of said poverty.

No wonder black DUers are annoyed with this shit.

From the outside looking in; the social vs economic justice debate is manufactured lunacy and bullcrap.

And jsyk I'm half-black so don't come at me with this tired collective "Black DUers" meme.

...is 100% dismissive. Sorry, but I cannot see any reasonable response there at all.

But my point still stands, we shouldn't compare poverty between racial groups or geography; we should tackle poverty because it affects everyone regardless of race or color.

And then, telling us that we can't look at poverty in black groups.

Like my initial response was, I don't see the point.

I don't think it's right at all to look at the whole when there are some in our society who are left in a far worse state. A third, an entire third number of black men face prison. Prison. One third. How is that not an absolute outrage? Black men get larger sentences and are more likely to be stopped and profiled. This is a racial element here, not an economic element.

If you were stopped by the police in your hometown, Would you rather be a rich PoC who has a father who is chief of police, or a poor white kid living in south Chicago who's father works at Wal-Mart?

Was there a point somewhere about the rich black kid who's dad is chief of police? I'm
Still wondering why a rich man would be employed by the local PD. I guess he married an heiress of color?

It's a constant struggle here.

We don't have much diversity, at all, so classism is more apparent here.

Here in SW VA we think we have poverty compared to the rest of the state, but eastern KY is another world. Some WV counties are in the same boat, McDowell especially.

The four places where poverty is most concentrated are 1) South Dakota, counties that are overwhelmingly Native American, 2) south Texas, overwhelmingly Hispanic, 3) the Mississippi Delta, overwhelmingly African American, and 4) eastern Kentucky, overwhelmingly white. But what is interesting to me as a white descendant of colonial free mulattoes is that the poorest counties in VA and TN also happen to be those with the greatest concentrations of Melungeons. (Lee and Hancock respectively.) Likewise in eastern KY, the Melungeon population of counties seems to coincide with their poverty levels. So there is an ethnic discrimination component here in Appalachia as well, even though the mixed ancestry population has "invisibly" blended into the white.

The most that can be said about the difference between poverty in Appalachia vs. the Deep South, Great Plains, or Rio Grande Valley is that people can escape their social stigma by migrating and changing their accents, more so here than in those places. Here is a list of the 100 poorest counties and a color coded map. It gives the "number of counties by state in the 100 poorest counties" the top four being Texas, 17; Kentucky, 16; Mississippi, 14; South Dakota, 10.

On edit-- while true that the very poorest African American counties in the Deep South are considerably worse off than the very poorest white counties in Appalachia, that is only half the story, which reduces everything to black-and-white. The poverty in Hispanic counties in south Texas is even more extreme than the African American counties in the Deep South; the poverty in Native American counties in the Dakotas is even more extreme than that.

We shouldn't get into a competition of arguing about who is more miserable.

Instead, we should all work together to elevate the poorest white communities and the poorest black communities and the poorest Hispanic communities equally.

The bickering about who has it worse only divides us.

A fair wage that they can live on - really LIVE on.

Regardless of race or region - people need jobs and a real paycheck. $12K is not enough.

As a southeasterner, I'm as susceptible as anyone to perceiving poverty issues in black/white, Deep South/Appalachia terms. But west of the Mississippi, conditions are even more shockingly horrendous for Hispanic Texans and Native Americans in the Dakotas-- which behooves us all to remember when discussing poverty in America.

Here is a clip about colonias in south Texas.

And another about South Dakota-- prepare to weep at both of these.

probably pretty important to them.

In exchange for the promise of economic justice. Republicans promised them tax cuts for the rich would allow them to keep their low wage jobs and that social justice would mean minorities would take their jobs. Republicans effectively stopped any notion of a "peasant" revolt and uprising by those in the same socio-economic class by promising whites a precious inch above their minority counterparts, effectively squashing any class warfare uprising by driving a wedge between the races. And their plan worked "wonderfully". Throngs of poor whites voting against their own economic interests just to keep that precious inch between them and the "others". And that is also the history of slavery.

They simply HATE having to share their victimhood.

Kind of sad when you think about it. Two dimensional thinking in a three dimensional world, actually.

their bogus "victimhood".

This thread ends up being very revealing.

And I've seen no one post a simplistic "n'uh uh" although that is the quality of your post, ironically.

I have bumped heads with BainsBane so many times it's not even funny. When she first got here especially. But she has been NAILING the commentary about these so called "liberals" who have decided that the needs of minorities come second to those of the majority. The reason the concept of "trickle down justice" pisses some off so much is because they know that phrase is damning and beyond appropriate.

There has not been a single poster criticizing Bain for her efforts to ally with posters of color and feminists that's been a surprise to me. Not ONE. Many of the folks on her ass for "speaking for black folks" are well known for being openly -- and I mean SERIOUSLY openly -- hostile to black people for a long time on this web site. And not just black posters on DU, black folks as a whole. I'm not necessarily speaking about the OP now, btw.

On the flip side, I have been pleasantly surprised by some of the people that have come out in support of what the few remaining people of color here have been saying. It's been great to see the number of non-minorities as disgusted by what's going on as much as we are. And despite the screaming, I am damn glad that all of the candidates are being asked to focus on the issues that specifically impact minorities. On DU, that makes you a Third Way "infiltrator" of the Dem Party.

Says you. What the fuck do you even know about me or my life?

Zilch. Zippo. Nada.

You want to know what I actually resent? People presuming to know what I think or feel.

they aren't incarcerated at same rate.

they are more likely to be hired if a job comes up.

discussion among people who are not people of color.

are. To look at Appalachia and say 'they have social justice' is utterly deluded. They don't have social justice.

Minority communities have been facing economic injustice for centuries, as long as they continue to face that economic injustice there will be no social justice.

I think there are some people who want to protect corporate profits and economic justice cuts into the profits of corporations who exploit minority workers for cheap labor.

Those people want us to pretend that economic justice and social justice are two seperate issues when in fact they are very closely intertwined and you can not have one without the other. By trying to seperate these issues they can pretend they are addressing racism while simutaneously keeping minority communities in poverty.

Now to be clear I don't think every person who is trying to seperate these issues thinks this way, but I do suspect that many of them have been fooled by people who do think that way.

I know you didn't mean to insult anyone, but damned if you just didn't show your cards. Our lives matter less, obviously.

I never called women or people of color low information voters, in fact most women and people of color that I know would agree with me on this issue.

To suggest I said that women and people of color's lives matter less us a complete and total lie. In fact calling for economic justice for women and minorities shows that I do value them. I am calling for economic justice for them, how the hell anyone could think that calling for women and people of color to be freed from economic injustice means I value them less I don't know.

So- am I a corporate shill or an idiot? Because you've made it clear those are the only options here.

It refers to people who insist that economic and social justice are not connected, most women and people of color that I know do not believe that. Most women and people of color that I know are well aware that women and minorities are paid less for doing the same work and are often denied opportunities for advancement.

This is economic injustice, and in order to bring about social justice we must fix that economic injustice. Those who are not concerned about that sort of economic injustice can not claim to support social justice.

you, along with sanders, perfectly reiterated and separated. economic justices, to GET social justice. you separate it. sanders separate it. stating we must do economic to get social.... is fuckin trickle down. social to back of the bus. wait your turn. once economic gets going, then social might get some.

you are saying it.

populist and saying it

we are calling you on it

quit blaming everyone else when you and others say it over and over.

I am not seperating the two any more than saying the words "wheels" and "car" would be seperating the two. They may be different words but a car needs wheels to be a car. Social justice needs economic justice in the same way a car needs wheels.

Would you not agree that in order to have social justice women and minorities need to receive equal pay for equal work? That is economic justice.

I am not telling you to wait your turn, I am telling you that I want you to get equal pay for equal work now.

how are you NOT saying this.

minorities are on an unlevel playing field. you wnat to leave it unlevel, work on economics. it will go to the cream of the crop, that are on a flat playing field, and the rest can struggle for it.

you cannot PRETEND there is a level field.

all the while, you are telling social to wait their turn. soon as you get economics up, then social will get some

What I am saying is that economic issues and social issues are intertwined, we need to address economic issues that effect women and minorities.

I never said anything about putting economic issues first and ignoring social issues, I don't even know where you got that idea from. I am saying that economic issues are so closely related that we can not seperate the two, that means we need to address both.

it is your position. it seems to be sanders. it is a legit belief. it is a position that sanders seems to be holding. ergo, he gets votes from those that agree.

i do not agree.

You may remember last year when I stood up for you and others in the HOF group when the misogyny on this site was at its very worst. I took some heat for that, I was called a white knight and had some fairly nasty things said about me but I am glad I spoke out for you because it was the right thing to do. That debate had little to do with economics, it was primarily about the way women are treated by some members of this site.

Not everything is about economics and I am more than willing to speak out on things that have nothing to do with economics, but at the same time I recognize that economics are a major factor in many issues our country is facing.