Never give up, never give in........NEVER QUIT.

Defeatism is of no value to anyone and helps nobody. It is not a progressive value in any way.

That's exactly what I'm calling for.

You're responding to. Sure you did.

Let's refuse to do that, shall we?

And if I thought we lived in a police state, I'd be afraid to say anything too. You can jailed or killed for saying the wrong thing.

makes for poor argument, by is sufficient for some, I suppose.

It's more than a little sad.

And so it goes...

...was true, the only viable option would to become a doomsday prepper. Live in a compound armed to the teeth with like minded cultists.

Thanks for the howlers. Comic relief is always welcome.

If it was the End I would at least say 'bye bye' to DU...my family is close. Not a long OP, since I bet many would be doing the same thing.

Tomorrow can be the best day of my life, I am thankful for so many who has passed my life.

Progress is on it's way.

Sorry, I work in an engineering field.

The sky is not falling.

Panic is not only premature but useless.

We must keep working for progress. Giving up is not an option.

Now that's a laugh. Lloyd should likely be behind bars along with his other 'savvy businessmen' buddies who did their damndest to crash the entire country's economy while hoovering up as much public money as possible to funnel into private hands.

I'm also a big fan of toxic waste. Some things just wind up with bad reps. It's tragic, really. And unfair.

Beau Biden's services this morning made me feel better about this country than I have in years. I'm in no mood for defeatist whining here at DU.

I'm proud to have him as my President.

...with every post you make. Thanks.

are sure sign that it is about to reach boiling point. I would say there are too many bubbles in this pot called the American experiment. If one doesn't keep an eye on it, it will sooner or later boil over.

But if you tell people everything is great when they see clearly it is not, then they will not believe you and come to trust less and less.

You don't win by not facing problems...All you do is normalize them.

Elections are coming. Make them count.

V

High consumer society (yes, elections are high consumer events; see Obama 2008; if you weren't in Mile High Stadium you should've been there) is not incompatible with Democracy.

It's not the damn end of the world as we know it.

We need approval voting, better apportionment (at least twice as many House members) and an end to gerrymandering.

But at least two of those things are going to happen (approval voting may be a bit more difficult but it's a one line piece of legislation in election code).

The wealthy and powerful wouldn't be wealthy and powerful if they didn't know how to exert undue influence on the controls of our society.

when "it was like that before". Bush was "elected" twice then proceeded to give away the treasury to the contractors & more, including the "Halliburton loophole" look at the foreign involvements way before -- Reagan. War is Racket -- what do you think Smedley Butler was talking about. "The Business plot"? Who has their ear during decision making. Sure as hell not We the People. Peddling horseshit from my own party's supporters is the BIGGEST reason why I haven't given up but have no hope. Bernie Sanders has given me what little hope I have left out and the reason I say little is I don't like his chances in the primary because of the "electable" voters but expect him to soar in a general. Hillary Clinton just more of the same selling to the highest bidder, the contractors are already behind her.

But this data goes back decades. The MIC has always been and always will be entrenched for the foreseeable future. It sucks. Big Pharma, likewise. Elizabeth Warren, of all people, was against the medical device tax. Because her constituents were against it.

But with Citizens United and Oligarchy United things have obviously changed. With the OP I can sympathize with that. There has been a change. But the top contenders for the Presidency (Sanders and Clinton) are for overturning those obviously corporatist agendas. So we shouldn't fret. Hell, Clinton came out in favor of automatic voter registration (which Sanders supports). It's not that big of a deal.

Things are changing so fast these days, but our democracy isn't it.

the buying and selling of our Democracy has long took place but things were optimistic from the early industrial revolution with the strong unions & Keynesian economics but the CIA killed a lot of hope not just here but around the world. Not to mention "the British are coming"

Things have changed dramatically in the last decade. But that is not a reason to set ourselves up for defeat. Sanders has a decent chance to turn things around (I believe he will do really well at the debates which is where I think the polls will shift, they've already shown incredible promise in Wisconsin). And if Clinton supports what Sanders supports (he introduced the overturn of Citizens United, long before Clinton came out for it) it is a good sign.

We're not done by a long shot, we're not even declining.

If a Republican takes the White House then I might change my tune.

Midterms or especially congressional races. Reason for Congress is I think Republicans have most of the districts in Michigan but most of the people live in Detroit a whole bunch of districts covering rural land but few for the cities. Unequal not to mention the gerrmandering -- things have improved considerable in Arizona with Independent Redistrictering which Jan Brewer hilariously fired after the chairman only for the judge to say she can't do that but even though a "none" religion, openly bisexual, former Green who worked on Ralph Nader's campaign won back-to-back elections the right poured heavy money into the races because it is a "swing district" with the mayor of Paradise Valley (a very wealthy city) running the ugliest campaign I ever seen where I had a living room seat to but she recently voted against Wall-Street reform and in favor of "Citigroup protection" so she is obviously worried about future elections because the heavy money pours in -- sold her soul for the mighty green back.

This is why I trust Bernie Sanders so much with his experience and record I find it very unlikely he'll do much of whoring but Clinton or anybody can win the general because the Republican party platform is radical, all they have left is rural older white American support left to count on (which is why the midterms will continue to be losers -- especially with Democrats that "distance themselves" but foreign policy issues and most Americans are blind but buy the usual crap who are enemies and friends are and why that we are out there trying to do good when it is obvious the financial interests and a way for the MIC to sell bombs.

It's a class thing every bit as much as just sheer graft, probably even more so actually, politicians mingle and associate with the wealthy and powerful class and not with normal everyday people. The politicians take their cues from those they associate with not those they represent.

The democracy is not at risk yet. There is room for improvement, yes, but it's not all doom and gloom, not by a long shot.

You had to go back over a half century for your most recent counterexample.

how much money is spent and voters go sheeplike for whoever spent the most money.

It insults the intelligence of the voters.

Most people go by their beliefs. Republicans vote Republican and don't pay attention to how much money the Democrats spent. I would never vote Republican due to some slick ad campaign they spent a lot of money on.

So it is not nearly so simple as "the ones who spend the most win."

Yet much of the Team Hillary argument seems to rest on her unmatched fundraising-fu.

that is for sure. I think we need to get the campaign season down to a shorter time period. We're going on about an event 17 months from now.

What you just posted is bullshit in a blender. It's like you made up your own OP and responded to it.

But all my posts are original...comes from my own mind.

I guess it hit nerve judging by your hyper response.

I was right. You read something, make up your own version, then respond to it. All your posts might be original, and come from your own mind, but it seems as though, everybody else's does too. I am getting hyper right now anticipating your response to your version of my response.

In a passive aggressive way...that is silly and childish IMO but go ahead and come back at me with some more of it, it don't bother me at all, and it may satisfy some urge you have.

.....it would.

Don't mean all of them, just the usual ones. Shining shit and calling it gold isn't going to improve or save or basically lying to themselves and others.

my great great grandfather didn't give up when he fought to make other men free

my great grandmother didn't give up when she struggle for the right to vote

my grandfather didn't give up to save the wilderness of Michigan

my father didn't give up to have the right to unionize

We owe it to so many people not give up.

Behind the oligarchy study (which is the latest).

Politics is a show, and those with lots of money control it
The first step in solving this actually is realizing there is a real issue. It will not be easy. But the delusion that there aren't any issues is quite frankly delusional.

I'm saying it on Democratc Underground.

We both are.

The studies and books are out there. I shan't bother to link to any of them since I am sure you can find them.

The first step in solving any problem is realizing one exists. Now I return you to propaganda where all is fine.

This system has been severely strained and perverted by a tiny collection of billionaires. Saying democracy in the USA is 'alive and healthy' is just pollyana, and frankly, makes me doubt the speaker's judgement-- if not honesty.

providing the right bait so many in the masses swallow it hook, line and sinker. I think that has always been the case, but what disturbs me today is the incredible wealth and propaganda machines to influence/control elections. And IMO psychops in the process. And actions such as SCOTUS and CItizen's United.

The preservation of a democracy is a battle that must be continuously fought.

I'm not speaking of the OP here at all, but to me many in the population have blinders on when they vote placed on them by the oligarchy.

My kids are smarter than me at least partly because their mother is smarter than me but they aren't doing as well as I was at their age and I don't for one moment think it's their fault.



For some of us watching politics is an exercise in horrified fascination. Some people gawk at blood and gore in the car wreck, some others at blood and gore in politics.

Please keep hope, and this thread, alive.

Thanks for all you replies!

.. but this liberal isn't letting it go without a fight.



Bernie for President 2016

Get off your asses and VOTE if you want to make a difference.

... I have heard about the death throes of democracy, on a predictably regular basis, for over six decades now.

Those who make such pronouncements are to be given as much credence as those who preach that the "end times are nigh", and the world as we know it will end within days - or weeks - or months, depending on whose ravings one chooses to believe.

The concept of democracy is not a document that can be destroyed, nor an ideal that can be muddled, nor a belief that can be dissuaded.

Democracy is alive and well - and those who ask others to embrace their own despair are to be pitied, but ultimately dismissed.

Democracy is about ALL of us - and when it is discussed in terms of "what about ME and what I think", the discussion becomes not only self-serving, but totally irrelevant.

Spot ON!!!!

I agree with you that people who embrace despair are to be pitied and ultimately dismissed. It reminds me a bit of some of the tea party ranting that when there was democratic party control of congress and the presidency democracy was dead. It's ahistorical as well, as you point out.

End times are nigh crap has existed since, well, pretty much the beginning of times, lol. People who hate it so much that they feel they need to type it all over here, sometimes I feel they need to get outside and go see some nature or find some people they like or something. Or have people visit them if they can't go outside. Or organize protests. I'm getting the feeling also that what they're really saying is 'I'm smarter than everyone else and if my candidate doesn't win they screw you I quit.' I never much felt like those are the kind of people I'd want in a lifelong battle in the first place.

Granted we have a lot to do to improve things on every level. It's not even a matter of thinking we'll improve everything perfectly. It's a matter for me of knowing that the struggle never ends. 'Toward a more perfect union.' Thanks again for your presence here. And once again, my deepest sympathies on the loss of your loved one.

For centuries at a time lt seemed to be extinct, butt it always came back.

The notion that it is dying is unrealistic from a historical perspective.

Even if our system here in the US is suffering, there are many with healthy democracies.

There's a lot of gloom and doom here that I don't see anywhere else. There's also a lot of conspiratorial nonsense that contributes to the gloominess here.

Vast Right Wing Conspiracy...

I've heard those words before somewhere.

because whatever it is the obvious bank & oil & gas industries as well as defense contractors clearly, very clearly influence foreign policy which contributes to my depression but as the Clinton foundation has taken donations the Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Morocco, and defense contractors not to mention they've seen a raise in weapons sales from the contractors (though probably unrelated but they sure as hell not donating for charity BS loophole but I imagine you feel it is nonsense that anything is bad with those associations -- whatever don't matter because a religious minority in Yemen has a $1.5 million dollar bombs dropped on them I'm just not going to be blind & pretend or change the story on others reality.

All is indeed for the best here in the best of all possible worlds.

exhorting them, is only needed when it is a production, something manufactured, like a brand. Or a plantation.

"The most potent weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed."
Steve Biko

And that is why it is hard to see.

"Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.
In peace there's nothing so becomes a man
As modest stillness and humility;
But when the blast of war blows in our ears,
Then imitate the action of the tiger. . . ."

This is what I quote to my friends and family on voting days.

If our opponent raises more money, we will lose.
If we raise more money than our opponent, we will still lose.

Our only chance for success is to "Think Outside the Bucks," to make this election about votes, not dollars. That's because the primary sources of the largest campaign donations are also the greatest threat to our democracy.

It is an illusion to think that the House will go to the
Dems after all the redistricting, which has been
achieved. And, unless you live in a beautifully blue
state, you may think twice about getting the
Senate to become not only 60% Dems, but also
progressively so. I realize pretty well that my
socalled Dem Senator will have a very hard time.
As a matter of fact I call him our blue dog.

Alright then, do you think that one person in
the WH will be able to achieve a lot under those
conditions?

Oh, I will try to work for Bernie as I have never
worked before, but I leave misplaced optimism
to Rove's prediction of Romney's win.

like I said in another thread, why would I even waste my time with a place like Democratic Underground if I thought it was all for nothing. My grandkids would be very disappointed in me. Thanks for the great OP. And by the way, a big K&R. The voices of reason and hope are alive and well.

More people will catch on. There may even be a sort of '60s-type thing happening. I'm happy to see strikes and protests. Slowly unions will come back, small manufacturing and food production. It's a damn big country. A slow, stubborn big damn country.

Increasingly, it is NOT a political forum as much as it is a "cultural forum", especially here in GD.

I would probably agree with you that we have absolutely nothing to worry about.

to make things more democratic. It's not a straight line. Sometimes it gets dark or difficult. We need one another. I interact with great people here who are also engaged in that struggle. Like other animals, people want to communicate with each other.

The 'good old days' were not good for a lot of people. I encourage people to engage here and offline. We'll never have a perfect democracy. We're all a part of struggling to make a better one.

It's easy to fall into absolutist thinking that the trend will continue in linear fashion. And then it never does. (oops, I just fell into absolutist thinking - it almost never does.

When we lose hope, we lose everything that makes that struggle worthwhile. When people tell us that we should give up hope, we need to tell them, "No, thanks."

President and consolidation of the one-party state might mean for those who post here. Not saying "Henny Penny, sky is falling" but not saying "whistle past the graveyard" either.

Unless you have good reason to believe, against all the profesionnal prognosticators, that the House will revert to the Dems. Even the Senate in 2016 will be a long-shot for Dems to regain control.

Have you made any contingency plans for the possible one-party state in January, 2017? If not, why not? Do you not think it at least possible that a Republican Congress might pass an Enabling Act and a Republican President sign it?

I watched a senate seat get bought in my state last year for $80 million. I saw nearly $2 billion get spent on the last presidential race. Suffice it to say, I'm a lot less optimistic about the status of American democracy with those things in mind. Not that I think we're near the end, but I find your prescription to be overly simplistic. If you want people to participate, you actually have to acknowledge the problems at hand and then say, "and here's how we fix it!" Anything else is just dishonest.

It is just nails in the coffin at this point. 60s where the last chance. Jfk, mlk, rfk was the death. The red scare for the decade prior eradicated the far left.

Last edited Sun Jun 7, 2015, 07:19 AM - Edit history (1)

And that my op, simple as it was, went over your head is no surprise.

It's DU. I post what I choose to post here.

it was against the rules.

Not in any way. It is a thread in response to another thread. That has never been against any rules. In any case, this is DU3, not the "old DU." Copycat threads tend to be sarcastic in nature. You'll find no sarcasm in this thread. Just a focus on what I think is important.

This thread will stand. I will post new threads on whatever topics seem important to me, even if they are posted to counter the views in some other thread. DU is full of such threads.

What a silly thing to pretend.

Even before the modern capitalist insanity we have now, we had a country in which part were enslaved, part were slaughtered, and part were worth nothing as defined by our constitution. There has never been democracy in the US--only varying levels of oppression, some more successful than others.

I don't fight to rescue democracy, I fight to create it. Participation in a democracy requires more than just participation. We have to be singularly committed as one people to completely overhaul this incredibly backwards society that we live in today. It touches every aspect of our lives.

Democracy isn't about participation: it's about understanding. I don't think you do.

but I see where this all heading but you're doing a wonderful job encouraging people (sarcasm)

you hopefully wouldn't be under the delusion that you are making any kind of difference here.

The worst possible way to promote democracy is online activism.

Its the only way a party with an insane and yet shrinking base, has a shot of winning.

organization trying to suppress the Democratic vote, you need to check yourself.

Perhaps you could show me where I claimed a DU member was part of a shadowy group trying to suppress turnout.

What I do see is plenty of Democrats who are more than happy to run around with their hair on fire, whining about TPTB, and other shadowy groups, claiming that we the people now have no say in what happens with our government.

Leading to the conclusion ... why even vote.

Its silly. And those on DU who do it are not part of some shadowy group ... they are simply dupes playing a small part in helping the party of insane whack jobs survive longer than it should.