General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBernie is Jewish. Please don't minimize his minority status by calling him "another white person"
Only 1.4% if the US is Jewish.
Posters here on DU even start OPs saying "Can we really elect a Jewish President"?
And yet I am told that being Jewish does NOT make me a minority by some.
Do the people who say that know what it is like to not be allowed into certain organizations? Do they know what it is like to have swastikas written on your personal possessions? Do they have family members who were killed in living memory because of their ethnicity?
Bernie IS a minority if the term has any meaning.
Please don't minimize the experience of Jews in this country or pretend that anti-Semitism and our tiny numbers doesn't qualify us to speak from the POV of a minority.
Jews have lived it and worked with POC and other minorities because it is something they know experientially.
Thanks.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Response to Bonobo (Reply #3)
Post removed
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Renew Deal
(81,861 posts)It's a good point.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)In fact, you pretty much dismiss them altogether.
This post is your attempt to make it seem like a white man, who may or may not be a practicing Jew, is somehow disadvantaged against a female candidate.
It's pretty obvious.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am Jewish and I support Bernie Sanders and people both decry for being a "white man" while simultaneously saying he is unelectable because he is Jewish.
How about that?
Literally, take just 20 seconds and THINK about that. Okay? 20 seconds of your life. Is that too much to ask?
I said literally NOTHING about Hillary Clinton or women. You are bringing that in.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)Especially as they #FeelTheBern
madokie
(51,076 posts)I do also agree with what Bonobo wrote as well as what you said
Bernie Sanders is going to be the next POTUS
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)The deliberate obtuseness of some around here is amazing. Metallic hydrogen has nothing on their denseness.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)to become rife once the primary gets truly under way.
Am afraid I won't be disappointed.
Now double WOW!
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Check your PMs.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and there is nothing on the PMs
Aerows
(39,961 posts)one of the most underhanded and insulting posts I've seen today.
You truly owe Nadin and apology for implying that she is only participating for an article, and not because she believes what she posted 100%.
Disgraceful.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Insulting seems to be the way to go here on DU lately.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)about anti-semitism and Judaism.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Am I wrong?
I'm not sure why that would be upsetting to anyone. I have many friends and relatives who are of Jewish heritage. Some of them practice, some of them don't.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)I'm not sure where you are, but it's not a big deal where I am.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)I am surprised that folks in Minnesota care, but I guess they do.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You SEEM to imply that it doesn't matter as long as he is not "a real practicing Jew"
But when I asked you if it made a difference wrt the anti-semitism he experiences, you said "no".
But NOW you are claiming some kind of what? NY State thing where you just pretend like you don't really know about anti-Semitism because people in NY really don't care about stuff like that?
So why did you ask if he was non-practicing? You're trying to dance, but it is a nervous kind of flailing spastic collection of non-sensical movements at this point.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)That's exactly what I got out of it, too - anti-semitism bald faced, front and center.
It's not just crass.
It's also some further shit-stirring, too, that doesn't need to stirred in, and is offending the fuck out of people that notice this.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Look at some of the conversations upthread. Disgraceful behavior.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)That has to be one of the most ignorant remarks I have ever seen on DU.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)as they are non-practicing?
So then it does sound like you WERE implying that as long as he is non-practicing, there is no discrimination.
Is that what you think? That for the rest of the US a Jew only experiences anti-semitism if they practice their religion?
It sure sounds like that's what you think.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)on the hatred chain.
Is that clear enough?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Link?
KMOD
(7,906 posts)carry on folks.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But your "but he's non-practicing" stands as a clear sign that you are dismissing anti-semitism or just don't get it and refuse to listen.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)So many funny people on DU!
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)If so, what happens when you break the chain?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But who even BROUGHT up this "chain".
My OP has nothing to do with comparing two different issues.
Go start an OP about your hatred chain.
This isn't one.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Would make a pretty cool name for a Death Metal Band too...
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)sounds more like a Christian rock band to me.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It has been only 70 years since the Holocaust.
I am often shocked by the amount of anti-semitism cloaked as criticism of Israel on DU.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)I am challenging your rankings.
Married women take on status from their husbands, and gain more status through motherhood. This raises her social ranking. "Never-Marrieds" (what society used to call "old maids" and Divorced women lose status, so there might be room for debate there.
I am not talking about Hillary Clinton in my title line, but I could be...couldn't I?
Quackers
(2,256 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)Well, I guess we were going to get there sooner, rather than later.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)He gassed both. He turned both into lampshades.
The U.S. and Canada denied sanctuary from Hitler to both.
Before that, the tsars, Torquemada and the Romans persecuted both.
DOES THAT CLARIFY THINGS FOR YOU?
randys1
(16,286 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)1) a secular Jew is still a Jew
2) even though he's white he's still part of a minority class
3) this isn't a contest
I'm sorry if the fact that a minority is running against Hillary ruins your "We've had enough white men/it's time for a woman in the White House!!!" talking point but them's the breaks.
You'll have find other reasons to convince people she's the better candidate.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)As far as enough white men, I have never said any such thing.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You must have thought it made some kind of difference.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Maybe this is a big deal elsewhere in our country, but nobody cares in the area that I live in.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Always got your back.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)He's still a Jew from New York, which doesn't play well in some parts of the U.S. Similarly, sexists don't care about anything Clinton has accomplished in her career, they only care about her "wrong" gender.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)I think they're partners with the other bigots.
tblue37
(65,393 posts)I agree that bigotry is more pervasive in the Republican Party, but the Democratic Party has some bigots, too.
historian
(2,475 posts)who makes less than a million a year would vote Republican is beyond me!
Joe the Revelator
(14,915 posts)You serious Clark?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)going at it with a backhoe at this point.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)your comment is out of line.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Hugs.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Renew Deal
(81,861 posts)fishwax
(29,149 posts)On the septuagenarian part. Bernie would still be the first Jewish president.
Renew Deal
(81,861 posts)fishwax
(29,149 posts)Eisenhower also held office in his seventies, but only for a few months.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and I usually do not recommend your posts.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I'm sorry that my hot-button issues have conflicted with yours in the past. We all have our little sensitive spots.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)All this "is a Jew electable?" crap makes my blood boil. We had a black president with a Muslim middle name. Bernie will be fine
Can't believe it's 2015 and this is still an issue
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)Elect anyone we choose.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I wish people would stop speaking of Judaism as if it were some insurmountable electoral handicap
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)We can elect anyone we choose. Let no-one tell us that we must choose someone just because our preferred candidate is unelectable.
Have you seen the loons and clowns the other side elects? That is proof testament to the electability of anyone whom is chosen by the people in their district / state / whatever.
A highly respected senator from Vermont is certainly electable. (So is a former secretary of state by the way, and so is a former governor from Maryland.)
KMOD
(7,906 posts)I think most Democrats were against him because of his republican sympathy, not because of his Jewish heritage.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)KMOD
(7,906 posts)Anti-Semitism is very real. As is misogyny.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)okasha
(11,573 posts)and yet he and All Gore actually won the 2000 election. That reality was dispelled by the Bush vassals on the Supreme Court.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Nobody likes a turncoat. Except the right-winger who thought it was hilarious when he bad mouthed us.
Unlike Bernie who is easy to like
MADem
(135,425 posts)the Supreme Court said, most Americans voted FOR Lieberman. Gore-Lieberman was the preferred ticket, not the Great Pretender/Darth Vader one.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)Most comments I see act as if post-9-11 Lieberman was the same as pre-9-11 Lieberman. He is one person, among many, where one can point to a distinct change in a variety of areas after the 9-11 attacks. People change over time, some change back, others don't. He was an example of changed in profound ways.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Had quite the fan base...He was the guy who separated Al Gore from the sinner Bill Clinton and made him his own man. He got some great press for his speech on the Senate floor that carved out that space for Al. His wife was charming and was a real asset to his political ambitions.
JL didn't anticipate such a strong challenge from his left...He thought "his" Senate seat was inviolable. He had to fight like he'll to keep it, and he wasn't afraid to throw a few elbows in the process.
911 was certainly a part of all that...but he probably wouldn't have tried so hard to stake out that party-straddling position if he hadn't lost that primary! He got very strident after that race, and burned a lot of bridges. Necessity and the urgent need to hang on to power changed him,and not for the better.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)I was just saying people are placing a "modern" JL in the role of Gore's running mate. They aren't really the "same" person. I see it, somewhat, like claiming Byrd was still a Klucker in the latter years. He wasn't. He was a 'different' man.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)Love to read those links you claim to the first DU site you talk about.
Thanks!
MADem
(135,425 posts)You got nothing!
That is how it goes here! Selectively!
Up all night for those juries right?
MADem
(135,425 posts)There are DOZENS of threads in that vein ... I'm not going to spend the evening cutting and pasting when you can easily get the material with a DU search. Now, get busy if you really want the info, and stop acting like a disruptor by questioning my veracity. Anyone who was here back then remembers this.
Not sure what your last sentence is on about but it sounds like you're trying, and failing to taunt me. Your incivility is noted.
Why aren't YOU in bed, now? Maybe you should attend to that beam in your eye, eh? You sound like you're up way past YOUR bedtime...
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)saw you take it to another long time DUer for not being up all night and serving on Juries for all.
I am up. And liberal. Not even 1 am here.
Specks are annoying but cloud the eye as well MADem, clean them out!
MADem
(135,425 posts)I don't order people to stay up at night. You invented that accusation, or you woefully misread.
I do tell people who complain about this site that if they aren't participating in the community moderation process that they don't have a leg to stand on. And when those people live in Europe, they will be on the site on a different schedule than, say, you. That is simply logical.
I have posted from Europe, the Caribbean and the west/central time zones, even the Middle East on very rare occasion, because I travel regularly and my time is my own to do as I please. It's not up to you to concern yourself with where I am if I don't choose to share that with you.
Beams cloud more than specks. You should take your own advice. Maybe be a bit more "liberal" sounding as opposed to accusatory in the way you talk to people.
LeftOfWest
(482 posts)accusatory..back at ya.
MADem
(135,425 posts)You are apparently missing the arc of the discussion entirely.
We're talking about people who act like jerks. I'm trying to encourage him to fight back against the trolls, shit stirrers and assorted disruptors who lower the discourse level here.
I have some news for you--I LIKE DFW. Always have. We are often on the same page. So take your " accusatory" schtick elsewhere.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)My, how privileged!
still_one
(92,213 posts)yup, nothing to see here, move along
MADem
(135,425 posts)survived a jury.
Were I called to vote on a post like that,a hide would be a no-brainer.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)You'd be surprised at some of the anti-Semitic remarks, links, posts, which get a pass here.
MADem
(135,425 posts)ANYTHING--race,sex,religion,orientation,age,appearance, etc., has no place here.
historian
(2,475 posts)We always have to label everything. By the way from the polls I have seen (and pardon me if I'm wrong) the chances of being elected are - protestant, catholic, Jewish, black and last, with no chance whatsoever, atheist. By the way I am Jewish although I have given up on religion since i consider it to be superstitious nonsense and very dangerous. Ignorance has always been the key to persecution and horrors (history is full of such incidents.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I wonder if America would elect a single president?
Who will give tours of the White House? Who will "just say no?" Who will monitor school lunches?
I think America would not elect a single man president. No way.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)If he were very handsome and charismatic, he might pull it off. If he were a widower he'd have sympathy, no problem.
For a woman? Yikes. That's tough. Very doubtful unless she were a widow with kids.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)He also survived a scandal where he was accused of fathering a child out of wedlock (a big deal in the old days).
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/president-clevelands-problem-child-100800/
Original Teflon leader!
jeff47
(26,549 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Wives were not paraded about as part of the process of election -- women didn't have the vote. One can't overlay modern peculiarities on the attitudes of bygone eras.
Parties picked their candidates and duked it out in oddball, often proxy fashion. While marriage was the norm, it wasn't mandated for political success as it seems to be today.
Buchanan, according to historians, was thought to be gay. Since that wasn't the sort of thing that people advertised back then, he referenced a backstory about a dead fiancee and a broken heart--and even those who looked askance let it go. There was far less "sharing" that went on about people's personal affairs back then. It was rude to pry, and rumors were spread principally to gain political advantage, not to "out" people. Since James Buchanan was a horrible POTUS and everyone knew it, there was no real need to gild the lily. He was incompetent and most people laid the blame for the Civil War on him.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)And we already did twice.
MADem
(135,425 posts)differently nowadays. People feel less pressure to wed at all. In Boston, the mayor's 'first lady' is a waitress, they aren't married...and no one cares.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/03/12/boston-first-girlfriend-avoids-spotlight/FAqfPb3lhozHM4T1a9pWlM/story.html
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)James Buchanan.
MADem
(135,425 posts)He married a very young and pretty bride two years into his first nonconsecutive term.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Women have less rights than white Jewish men. Just sayin'.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)and I will leave it at that...
Astounding....
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And I refuse to dismiss the concerns of any minority class.
This isn't a persecution contest.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Ignorance is the only defense for posting something that absurd.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)I am so bad...please...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Tell your friends!
dflprincess
(28,079 posts)For example in 1951 the Jewish community in Minneapolis opened Mount Sinai hospital because Jewish doctors could not practice at other private hospitals in the area. Note the date - 1951 - 6 years after the end of WWII and after everyone had heard the horrors of what happened in the Camps.
At the very least, rent "Gentleman's Agreement" that deals with the subject.
BTW I'm Irish and was raised Catholic - lest you accuse me of some kind of bias.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Have Jewish male citizens ever been denied the vote?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)who weren't Jewish.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)effectively banned from owning land in some places. Thus denied the vote.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)equal treatment under the law, despite comprising a majority of the population.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)My OP is not about what you are discussing.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I will just say that Hillary also is a "minority" so to speak as a candidate and I never meant to imply that one was more or worse or more hated or more or less privileged than the other.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)This shit is getting crazy.
Does anyone think about the policies of candidates anymore?
I'm a white, female, atheist, who likes Bernie Sanders' way of thinking.
I would love to see a woman President. I just don't think Hillary Clinton is the one that would have my best interest at heart.
I did back Shirley Chisholm back in the day.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)"General Ulysses S. Grant issued an order (quickly rescinded by President Abraham Lincoln) of expulsion against Jews from the portions of Tennessee, Kentucky and Mississippi under his control."
And then, "in the first half of the 20th century, Jews were discriminated against in some employment, not allowed into some social clubs and resort areas, given a quota on enrollment at colleges, and not allowed to buy certain properties. Antisemitism reached its peak during the interwar period. The rise of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s, the antisemitic works of Henry Ford, and the radio speeches of Father Coughlin in the late 1930s indicated the strength of attacks on the Jewish community."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism_in_the_United_States
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)mid-70's if not beyond.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)It was something I didn't know either. Also see: How Lincoln aided Jews' assimilation into American life
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)Also, if you have several hours to kill, there are some "History of the Jews in America" films on YouTube. They are very well done and quite informative. Fortunately, I have a husband who was able to get it to play on our TV...I just can't look at a video on the internet for 2 hours straight...not even porn!
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)discriminated against in some employment, not allowed into some social clubs and resort areas, given a quota on enrollment at colleges, and not allowed to buy certain properties."
And while the constitution now prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion, it doesn't prohibit discrimination based on gender.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)The paragraph 2 events, I did know about. Great post.
MADem
(135,425 posts)revealed that his house deed had a race codicil attached that prohibited sale to Jewish people or people of color. Caused quite a stink but it didn't stop the process.
People can really be jerks at times. That was in the mid eighties.
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-08-01/news/mn-18978_1_deed-restrictions
dflprincess
(28,079 posts)adopted laws denying denied the right to vote to Quakers, Jews and Catholics. They did not deny Quakers, Jews and Catholics the opportunity to sign up for fighting the Crown (though I doubt many Quakers signed up for that).
The original Delaware Constitution required an oath of office that affirmed one faith in Jesus and several states (mainly southern) only allowed Protestants to hold office.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)When it comes to minority groups it's not a competition.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)Racism, Anti-Semitism, Misogyny, Homophobia, Islamaphobia, etc. exist.
It is not a competition. To pretend that any of the above do not exist is naïve.
I don't care that the OP is painting Bernie Sanders as the only minority running. That's simply not true and is very disingenuous.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Nor did I say he was the only minority running.
Those must have been voices in your head.
Beartracks
(12,814 posts)But it seems to me that a good many DUers feel that support for one candidate must somehow be a slam against another.
It's like they doth protest too much sometimes, but I can't figure out why. Our pool of candidates thus far is pretty freakin' amazing.
It's absolute silliness for people to hobble Democratic momentum with, in this thread's case, "my candidate is more a minority than your candidate!" But perhaps they accuse you of that because it's what they themselves would do...?
===================
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)When I wrote this OP, I literally did not consider for a moment that I was saying "one is more minority" than the other.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)One thing DU has taught me is to choose my words very carefully indeed.
Beartracks
(12,814 posts)These folks are MORE than happy to tell you what you REALLY meant in your post.
=====================
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)malokvale77
(4,879 posts)No matter how exact I try to be with my wording, someone will come along and pretend I said something different.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)The plutocrats, that's who.
When we're all standing in shit, is it really that important who's standing in a little less shit?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Tell me again how people who don't like Clinton are wrecking DU.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)In this thread, you are creating a contest of who is "minority enough" to count.
Apparently, you think this contest will score points for your favored candidate.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)tanbrown
(32 posts)Hi; can I play this game too?
I am Jewish and a woman.
My life has been extra-interesting because I married a Muslim man who lived down to the worst stereotypes of Muslim men where both antisemitism and woman-bashing were concerned.
If you are saying that a Jewish woman gets more crap from being female than from being Jewish, I will second that. I have never been held back by my Jewishness, but my femalehood has made me the target of domestic violence, attempted rape, a constant drip-driip-drip of objectification and disrespect; also workplace harassment, loss of my former career, and has brought me general contempt/scorn/threats all my life.
Don't get me wrong - being female has some great perks, too! (And I thank the stars I am my Jewish-female self in wonderful open-hearted, one-law-for-all America, and not in my ex-husband's Arab homeland.) But overall, femaleness has been a much greater defining "handicap" to my dreams than Jewishness. And it has put my life in danger many times. Jewishness never has.
Other people's mileage may vary. I am just weighing in with my own experiences. I am curious to hear from other Jewish women on this site.
(I will add that I am openly Jewish but not recognizable as a Jew on first sight, and have an Italian last name thanks to my mom's exogamy. So I may have been sheltered from whatever bad experiences Bonobo seems to be drawing on.)
I wish both Clinton and Sanders well. A woman and a Jew vying for the nom, and both of them good liberals? I am in heaven!
Stargleamer
(1,989 posts)Hope you find something worthwhile here.
tanbrown
(32 posts)... that I may sit at this computer for a long long time and argue uselessly with people who are just as bullheaded as myself.
Thanks for the welcome!
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It's great that you figured that out so quickly, that leaves much more time for banging your head against a wall.. Enjoy banging your head against the wall and welcome to DU!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)In our culture it is harder to be a woman than Jewish. That is probably because our Constitution minimizes religious identification in civic life and thus, religious discrimination. There are a lot of countries that have a dominant religion and anyone who does not belong to that religion, especially Jewish people, have a hard time functioning. Some countries are predominantly Muslim or Catholic or some other religion. Some even prohibit proselytizing and converting people from the dominant religion to any other religion.
We don't notice discrimination based on religion quite so much in the US as they do, say in Egypt or even in many European countries. Women had a disadvantage everywhere, I think.
In a way, we who belong to minority religions (I'm a Unitarian) are lucky to be in the US.
gopiscrap
(23,761 posts)gopiscrap
(23,761 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Chathamization
(1,638 posts)when people are dismissing the problems minority groups face with rhetoric that's pretending to care about minority groups. It's not a competition, and recognizing the problems faced by one group doesn't mean we should dismiss the problems faced by another.
still_one
(92,213 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it matters little what you consider yourself
This was the lesson of the holocaust... and I got 50 family members who went up in smoke at the camps. Some of their friends, who also died, were not self described Jewish.
People really need to read some history. In fact, I love my husband, but we had that conversation before we married. In case you do not get the allusion, he was not born Jewish.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I really think people need to listen to Jews when we are describing anti-semitism and stop trying to tell us about it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)because I would have rather have lost the catch of my life, than get him to go though all that worst case because I never said a thing.
I know.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)during this campaign.
Sad the world we live in really.
Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #218)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)And who said ANYTHING about the Clintons?
I very much doubt it will come from them nor was that even a suggestion.
still_one
(92,213 posts)Jewishness was not a good example, since he effectively doesn't align himself with any organized religion.
Of course with so many of us "coming out", and identifying ourselves as Jews, I wouldn't be surprised if someone posts that "Jews control everything, including DU"
After all, we do own all the banks, and there are no poor Jews, right?
(note scarcasm)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)it really matters little what you self identify with.
still_one
(92,213 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Because his lack of religious or even any self-proclaimed alignment with being a Jew does not protect him from anti-semitism and, as Nadin pointed out, would not have protected him from being exterminated by the Nazis -nor for that matter from attacks by the skin-head neo nazis that are all over the place in Europe and other places.
still_one
(92,213 posts)problems with it would have been because he is gay or his politics, rather than his religion
I suspect those that will have a problem with Bernie will be more that he identifies himself as a Democratic Socialist, and to those folks, there is no difference between Socialism verses communism. I also believe that most of those people who hold that view, believe most Jews are communists, though it is like the chicken or the egg
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)but my guess is that many of the people who dislike Jewish people just because they're Jewish probably also dislike other minorities, such as people of color. And if Barack H Obama could get elected in that environment, I think Bernie can too.
rocktivity
(44,576 posts)rocktivity
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)does not overcome being latino or woman. I stopped right there. I really do not want to be truly really, nastily depressed to night
Thanks... I think.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)romanic
(2,841 posts)Must be one miserable SOB. :p
Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #42)
6chars This message was self-deleted by its author.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)But, I did some research on my family tree and shook out a whole lot of Jewish people. And it was funny to me to look at some old family photos and note that I had until then never noticed how dark my family is.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)I didn't consider Romney a minority candidate.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I'm sure Hitler would have disagreed with you and the Romney clan would have been just fine.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)and yet were denied even the right to vote for much of our nation's history.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Mormons haven't been treated all that greatly in this country, either.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)in terms of the magnitude of its effect.
He is predominately a very rich, white man. That is how I saw it personally. He would not have been turned away from the clubs my family was turned away from back in the 70's.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)He's not Lieberman. Romney, though, being LDS was much wider and bigger because his religion was constantly being discussed.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Why?
Because the thing that people who dislike Jews have no one to vote for who doesn't support Israel. From the farthest RW nutjob to the most 'liberal' Democrat, you're hard pressed to find a single candidate or office holder who doesn't say 'Of course we must support Israel fully, and keep the money and weapons flowing to them'. You might get a FEW sternly worded letters, but just about nobody is standing up to Netanyahu.
So he'll lose the 'white power!' type of folks, but anybody who's anti-zionist/anti-Israel or pro-BDS has nothing against him that they don't have about every other politician, and his Jewishness is a 'wash'.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Did you consider Obama a minority candidate?
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Okay...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Just because you don't count Jews as minorities doesn't mean they're not.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)That's all.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)And we all know what a persecuted minority they are in the US.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)By many Christians...who don't see them as Christians at all. Let's not kid ourselves. Even polls suggest more Americans are less likely to vote for a Mormon than a Jew.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/155285/atheists-muslims-bias-presidential-candidates.aspx
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #228)
Erich Bloodaxe BSN This message was self-deleted by its author.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Your chart shows that a small minority said they wouldn't vote for a Mormon (and note that Gallup doesn't ask about resistance to voting to evangelical Christians or fundamentalist Christians, two groups within the unspecified Christian block that I suspect would have also met greater resistance than Catholics or Jews.)
In what ways are modern Mormons oppressed? Are they denied employment? Are their neighborhoods redlined by lenders? Are they disenfranchised because of their faith? Are they denied public accommodations? Does the government refuse to recognize their citizenship and thus prevent their foreign mission trips? How, exactly are they persecuted?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Unless, of course, they agree to do a TV show about them, I guess.
MADem
(135,425 posts)as being a religion (which makes them somewhat different from other ethnicities). People who are bigoted against Jews don't generally distinguish between religious and secular individuals. They hate because of the Jewish identity and don't particularly care if the individuals are religious or not.
Mormon is not an ethnicity. It's a religion that places itself under the Christian umbrella.
Number23
(24,544 posts)Nope. Still doesn't make even the tiniest bit of sense.
I have no idea what is going on with this web site lately. None.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)She was asking if that poster considered AA folks to be a minority because the other poster appears to be saying that Jews aren't a minority despite only making up 1.4% of the US population.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)This is kind of weird thread but your explanation makes sense. Thanks for that.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The poster I responded to said they didn't consider Romney a minority candidate despite Mormons making up a very small percentage of US population.
So I asked if they considered Obama part of a minority class since he belongs to a much larger percentage.
Sorry about that, Number23.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)But nice try tying Sanders to Romney.
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Different minority groups will face different issues and kinds of and degrees of prejudice. Compassion isn't some limited resource where we have to worry about being too compassionate towards one group lest we won't be able to be compassionate towards another. Recognizing the problems one group faces doesn't mean we're suddenly unable to recognize the (sometimes much larger) problems another groups faces.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Iggo
(47,558 posts)No fucking way.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Iggo
(47,558 posts)Dude.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But I think if you had something substantive to say that would not be embarrassing for you, you would have said it.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)But whenever I have to check one of those boxes to say what race I am, I end up checking "white" ... I guess, by default, because I'm not Asian/Pacific Islander, African American, Hispanic, or Native American. It's just the way it goes. If someone looked at me, they'd say I'm "white."
Like Bernie, I am no longer very much "religiously" Jewish, though I identify as culturally Jewish.
In the end, however, I have to say I haven't heard people saying that Bernie Sanders is just another white guy. Are we just creating another straw man here?
Can we please stick to policy, please? Being Jewish isn't really a factor. Just as Kennedy did not want his Catholicism to be an issue, I don't think we should consider Bernie Sander's being culturally Jewish a factor much either: being Jewish really doesn't have anything to do with the economic and social issues of our nation. Remember, Joe Lieberman was Jewish, too. How did that work out for you?
(Being a woman may have some more direct linkage to policy, given that issues regarding women's rights are in the forefront of current social policy, and are under attack.)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Bernie may indeed not want it to be an issue, nor do I particularly.
But I also do not like to be shoved into the "white" camp very much when, in fact, I do NOT take advantage of all the goodies that actually are there.
So no, denying our Judaism is fine on ballots and such. It is what we are told to do.
But since no one lets me forget I am Jewish, I will not forget it either.
Do you walk around with peyos and a beaver hat or something?
Like, when you walk into a store, do the clerks sort of back away because of your Jewishness? This is remarkable to me, a true Jewess. Because it's not the first (or 14th) thing people bring up with me. I operate in many different registers in my life, and being Jewish is only one of them.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Neither is being Jewish the only identity in my life.
But whether it is ranked 3 or 4 or 14 (in your case) is really a matter of difference between individuals and the way you personally rank yourself doesn't change the fact that Jews have varying ranks of identification.
BUT MOST IMPORTANT.... how you "rank yourself" does not affect how people, including ant-semites, rank you.
You can refer to Nadin's post above for more on that.
BTW, if I did have pesos, it shouldn't be the bad thing you make it sound like. That's actually borderline offensive. Like people should be forced to hide their identity? Blech. The more I think of that, the more I want to vomit.
Would you have said that about a Sikh?
frazzled
(18,402 posts)I do not feel I have to wear markers of my identity: they are in my inside, and in the actions I perform in the world and in my beliefs. I reject those sorts of trappings (be they Hassidic or traditional Muslim or Sikh) precisely because of my religious upbringing: Judaism was about leading a life of justice and tikkun olam, and your religiousness was not measured by the number of ritual trappings observed. Or as my mother used to say: God doesn't care what you put in your stomach; he cares what kind of person you are. I regret that this kind of progressive Judaism (and that goes for all the other religions I respect) barely exists anymore. Blech back at ya.
PS: I asked whether you wore these things because you claimed that people were constantly reacting to your being Jewish. I wondered why it would even come up with "all" people. It's not like being black, where the color of your skin immediately marks you in the eyes of society.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Some physical traits mark me.
KMOD
(7,906 posts)It's very appreciated.
I'm not sure why some want to make this an issue.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Listen, if you're a Jew or another minority, it is made an ISSUE of whether you fucking want it or not.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)Policy is why I prefer Bernie Sanders.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)I prefer discussing policy and that's why I love Bernie Sanders.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 8, 2015, 06:34 AM - Edit history (1)
for being Jewish.
When my dad, who's a touch older than Bernie, went to NYC public schools, another kid pulled a knife on him and asked "Are you Jewish?". IIRC, dad denied being a Child of Abraham, then went home to get a bat, fortumately he was caught when returning to scool before something awful happened.
Oh, and huge swaths of Bernie's and my family trees end in the 1930s, in Eastern Europe and Russia.
It ain't nothing,
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I definitely learned something from this thread and I sort of wish I hadn't.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It really comes out in the "but they din't identify as Jewish" or the "but they are not religiois" or the "what about other religions like derp, Mormons."
They don't get it. They don't want to hear it. They won't listen.
And they will probably be the first to say that no one has a right to speak for women, blacks or other minorities or that only THEY can judge what racism or misogyny is.
Apparently that logic does not hold for Jews.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's DU.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)What makes it worse is that those Italians came from immigrants who were at one time seen as undesirable and denied opportunities due to their own culture and religion. Those Italian kids either didn't know or didn't care about their own history smh.
marym625
(17,997 posts)JI7
(89,251 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And therefore try to discourage people from voting for him based on his ethnicity?
Like that?
JI7
(89,251 posts)black people before Obama won Iowa and some even after.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)JI7
(89,251 posts)you are discouraging voting for sanders by pointing out how jews are persecuted which shows people may not vote for them.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)JI7
(89,251 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But there as an OP, other than his, that was literally "Is it even possible to elect a Jew at this time"?
JI7
(89,251 posts)he didn't say "a jewish person should not be president" . his point was about bigotry against jews and he used his own experience for that.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)And I think such a post skates along a VERY THIN LINE of anti-semitism.
JI7
(89,251 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)JI7
(89,251 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)JI7
(89,251 posts)your thread pretty much backs up what he was saying.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)hillaryrein, that supporters of Sanders are making this place like. This was a play on judenrein, jewish free, which got that poster only a hide.
So yes, a nasty, bumpy, likely I will leave, ride is ahead of us.
Boomer
(4,168 posts)I'm just glad I lived long enough to see a black man win the presidency, and at the very least see both a woman and a Jew be treated as serious candidates for that office as well.
Regardless of whether Clinton or Sanders wins the presidency (and I hope it's one of them who gets that office in 2016), a new barrier would be broken. I'll celebrate either way.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Would this poster be a supporter of Clinton, O'Malley, Warren or Biden?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)I have been told my being gay isn't as important as other issues. So, if they can do it to gay persons, you better believe (no pun intended) they will do it to Jews.
I know we were at odds over one thread in particular, but I think it came down to how it was worded. I believe, with all sincerity, if Sanders is the democratic candidate, anti-Semitism will not be shy and rear its ugly head. I don't really care about the right; it is to be expected. Where my concerns lie when it rises in the left, what will happen to his candidacy? You have to have had this thought too given how long you have been a member here and the number of other sites referenced here. I personally feel too many people really don't understand anti-Semitism; FFS, some people can't even define it correctly! So, it isn't really surprising when negative things about Jews crop up and are believed. I have seen Sanders, YES SANDERS, accused of being a dual-citizen of Israel. Let me repeat...SANDERS. This will come up should he seal the nomination for our party. More than a few are pretending, as seen in this very thread, that his religion/ethnicity won't matter....BULLSHIT...it certainly will come into play; how much so, that I don't know.
Many bigotries are born out of "the unknown" and "unfamiliar." That isn't a big surprise, nor should it be a shocking revelation, but it lends itself to a point I have and that is many people don't even know a Jewish person. I am not talking about seeing one on TV or in the movies (though that is where more than a few seem to get their information), or casually glancing upon one. I am talking about actually knowing someone who is Jewish. You pointed out our numbers in the US; there aren't many of us. In my state, there are about 4600 out of 3.9 million residents, hell, there are only 1.5 million more Jews than there are people in the state of Oklahoma! There just aren't many of us out here. I have lived here for almost 8 years (moved away, then back), for some, I was the first Jew they ever knowingly met! This is the 21st century! In the 8 years I have been here, I have yet to meet another Jew in this town (40K). My point? There are many people blathering on about Jews yet have never even met one. They don't see us as people, only stories.
I don't know what is in store, but to pretend anti-Semitism won't coming creeping around is naïve, stupid, ignorant, and/or bigoted to think. I am glad you have made that clear, because, quite frankly, I was wondering if it would be made visible that some do minimize our experiences and the bigotry used against us!
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I would feel horrible to lose you as an ally and a DU friend who means a lot to me.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)I don't even know if you saw my post there. No worries. We're good. Can't shake me that easily!
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)JI7
(89,251 posts)Oldtimeralso
(1,937 posts)From what I have been able to tell by my own perception that the majority of people from both parties that I have met are followers of a Jewish fellow, the son of a carpenter, who even observed a Passover Seder the day before he died. This happened about 2,000 years ago, he still has a lot of followers, not just in America but worldwide.
By the way was he really white?
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)Is mostly irrelevant.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)"religion" on one hand and "irrelevant" on the other hand indicates you may need to listen a little more to the Jewish people here.
MrModerate
(9,753 posts)To the degree that his religion/ethnicity enrich his personal story, that's all fine and well. Otherwise for me and all non-antisemitic voters it's a nonissue.
Your personal history of your ethnicity/religion are your very own, but we're talking presidential politics here.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I doubt they are.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)I'm confused...seriously. Is it an ethnic race, or a religion? I've been slapped up side the head because I didn't recognize it as a religion. Then I get slapped upside the head because it is "a race"? WTF is it?
I honestly don't give a rat's ass, but it would be nice to know. Maybe this is a discussion I missed when I was in high school; but is it a race, an ethnic group, or simply another wacko religious group that wants to recognized differently? Fix me up, please.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I don't believe in God, first of all. So in some sense, you can take religion right out of the equation.
So am I Jewish? Well let's see...
-I grew up going to Hebrew school, I was bar-mitzvahed, I was excluded from Christian holidays.
-I was attacked for being Jewish, I was teased, had swastikas drawn all over, pennies thrown at me.
-My brothers couldn't date the Chrisian girls, we couldn't join certain clubs.
-I ate my grandma's chicken soup with matzoh balls.
-My name identifies me as a Jew
-My ancestors were killed by the Nazis.
Etc. etc.
It is part of who I am and not simply a matter of religion. It is, yes, in my blood. But is it a race? An ethnicity? Yes, yes, depending on definitions.
Bottom line. I am a Jew because I identify that way and others identify me that way. It is who I am.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)The Jewish person can be religiously a Jew or ethnically a Jew or both. Jews are not a race, but an ethnic group, though not all Jews are "ethnically" Jewish. There are sub-categories of Jewish ethnicities.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)So if I was to convert to Judaism, and I begin following the practices of the faith, would that make me and my children "a Jew"?
I want to understand what I'm talking about when I address the issue, yet I think a lot of people have a misconception. As I said in my reply title, I'm not trying to be a smart ass or poke the fire with a stick. I sincerely want to know what makes one a Jew. I think it is obvious if one is born in Israel to Jewish parents and practices the faith of Judaism, there would be little question.
This subject has always left me confused. I was born Catholic, raised Catholic, and finally quit attending or following the doctrine of the Catholic faith. I still consider myself a Catholic, but there is no "ethnicity element" to my faith.
Maybe is too much for me to comprehend? Too many variables?
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)You would be Jewish and could be called a Jew. Your children would not be, according to Jewish law, which is matrilineal. However, if they were raised as Jews, then most Jews would consider them Jewish, as would most bigots, who are less stringent about who is and isn't a Jew than Jews are.
Location of birth is irrelevant. If your mother is Jewish, you are considered Jewish even if you don't practice the religion. If you convert, you are considered Jewish, but your children aren't unless they too convert, are raised as Jews, or born to a Jewish mother.
The ethnic part is different than your example of "being born" Catholic. Catholicism is strictly a religion, not an ethnicity. So you weren't "born" Catholic, but rather born into the faith. It is just a slight distinction. Jews as an ethnic group share certain traits and genes. Jews are one group, but have several smaller divisions as well, the most well known are the Ashkenazi, which are the Jews of Eastern Europe. There are the Sephardim, which are from Spain, Portugal, the Mediterranean, and parts of North Africa. The other large sub-group are the Mizrahim, which are the Middle Eastern and African Jews. Though the religion dictates matrilineal parentage, genetics says something else all together; men, like women, pass down their genes, thus passing on their ethnicity. This is why there are such people as Jewish atheists, but there is no such thing as a Catholic atheist.
People who claim to be Jewish because they have a grandparent or some distant relative who was Jewish are as Jewish as I am Cherokee (1/8th or 16th still getting the lineage tied down). And though the former may be considered Jewish in some ways, it is nothing more than being "part French" and is no indication on their knowledge or treatment as a Jew. Religion can be abandoned, ethnicity cannot. A religious Jew may not be ethnically Jewish, and an ethnic Jew may not be religious. So, to summarize, a Jewish person can be religiously Jewish, ethnically Jewish, or both.
Sanders is ethnically Jewish, he was religiously Jewish at one point, but seems to be an atheist by all accounts now.
Hulk
(6,699 posts)You've made me more educated on the subject. It is something that has always puzzled me, and I've not bothered to ask for fear of being laughed at or ridiculed for not knowing the answer.
Sometimes in life we miss a lesson, and we end up going through life not knowing what most everyone else is aware of. Perhaps at one point in time I should have learned, but I didn't.
I appreciate your non-judgmental response. I'll have to read it over a few times to be sure I've got it correctly, but I think I understand better now.
Coventina
(27,121 posts)It's one of those issues I've always been curious about but never knew how to ask without feeling like it was offensive or might be seen as offensive.
I hope you don't mind if I ask a follow up question to your post.
I've always been curious about Felix Mendelssohn.
He was born to apparently non-religious Jewish parents(very well known Jewish family), but they had him baptized a Christian at the age of 7 (too young imho, to be his choice).
He married a Christian girl, and his children weren't raised Jewish.
By what I'm understanding from your post, if his descendants claimed to be Jewish the Jewish community would only agree with that if they became religiously observant?
Or, would still having the name of the family be a factor?
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)The Jewish community is not of a single mind on this, thus the many problems with "who is a Jew" discussions in our community and Israel, as it applies to "Right of Return." The majority of the Jewish community would see his descendants as non-Jews, unless they converted. The lineage is too long. It would be different with nearer connections. Even the Nazis wouldn't have considered his descendants Jewish and they really reached for it! Jews are an ethno-religious group, but like with any ethnicity, after while it becomes "watered down" so to speak. His children would have been ethnically Jewish by half, and if they didn't marry ethnic Jews, their children would be one-quarter, and on down the line. So to answer your question, yes, you are correct; at least as I understand the laws. The family name would have no bearing on it, though.
If you have one grandparent who is ethnically Jewish, you would be one-quarter Jewish to most Jews because genetics don't care if you are male or female. To some Jews, it would depend if the grandparent was female, and her daughter was your mother, only then, would you be considered Jewish, unless you were also religiously Jewish.
If this is still "clear as mud" to you, don't feel bad, it is just the complexity of the issue. Sanders is ethnically Jewish, but my understanding is he is not religiously Jewish anymore.
Coventina
(27,121 posts)Are there sects of Judaism, conservatives, who would insist that to really be considered Jewish that you had to be both ethnic and observant?
Like, a secular Jew like Bernie would not truly be "Jewish" in their eyes?
I'm really sorry to be so stupid about this, especially at my age!
I've never really thought these issues through before, and this intersection of ethnicity and religion is hard to wrap my mind around.
I can't really come up with any parallels, except maybe Shinto.
However, it is quite easy to be Japanese and not practice Shinto. You aren't considered "secular Shinto."
Also, the concept of a non-Japanese person being Shinto would be something almost impossible to imagine, as it is considered intrinsic to being Japanese. Any non-Japanese practicing Shinto would be seen as either silly, crazy, or maybe slightly offensive.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)OK, not totally true because I have heard some dumb-ass questions in my life. LOL! But, in this instance, I am OK with your questions. You do have to keep in mind I am not a complete expert, but going off what I know and have been taught.
First, "conservative" Jews doesn't mean what you maybe thinking, if I am reading your question correctly. 'Conservative' refers to a branch of Judaism. If you are using the alternative meaning of that word, I can't really speak to it, except to say there are some who consider the "real" Jews to be both religious and ethnic, but they tend to be a small minority, though some are quite vocal. Most Jews would consider Sanders to be Jewish; a Jew.
You shouldn't be sorry that you don't understand, as I said, even in my community there is much debate about this and many opinions. For me, personally, I tend to look at religion and genetics. Despite Judaism being matrilineal, was your father a Jew? Then, in my eyes, you are a Jew. Did you convert? Then you are a Jew, though only the latter can "stop being" a Jew. It is one of the reasons "Jews for Jesus" causes many debates and concerns in the Jewish world.
I can't really speak to a comparison or lack thereof in regards to Shinto, because I just don't know enough about it. Bonobo might be the way to go in that regards as he is more familiar with Japan and Japanese culture.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Anyone that considers themselves a believer of Shinto can be one.
I have participated in many Shinto ceremonies and there was never any issue involved.
I regularly observe Shinto practices.
Coventina
(27,121 posts)As a religion with no established doctrine, it makes sense.
However, I thought (wrongfully, it turns out) that the Kami were predisposed to helping only the Japanese.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I think they help us out if we pay the proper respects.
My wife is Japanese but I am the one that makes sure there is salt, rice, sake and water in the kamidana!
Coventina
(27,121 posts)And recognize what is in the heart.
(And who supplies the offerings!)
Thanks again!
This is very important knowledge.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)In Japan, it feels right to pay them respect.
In another country, I would no doubt pay respect to their local gods as well.
http://www.wikihow.com/Set-up-a-Kamidana
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)In his message to average Americans.and to me ...why do people feel the need to continue it all...I'm well aware though considering we humans failed to evolve past appearances that it will become an issue to be used against or for him should he win the primary..
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Why do we feel the need to continue it all" about racism too, though.
I mean, Obama was elected, right?
Same thing.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You are dismissing it. You are dismissing the Jewish experience and you are dismissing anti-semitism.
AuntPatsy
(9,904 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Did I misread.
You said it was inconsequential.
Jews don't feel that anti-semitism is inconsequential and we DO feel like it is something that will continue.
No clairvoyance needed.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)Almost always uttered by white people, they have the luxury of "not" seeing race. It may not be a mitigating factor, but to pretend it isn't relevant is disrespectful. Same with saying "Sander's religion/ethnicity doesn't matter", because it does, it just may not be a factor for that individual, but it is important and it does matter.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It is like telling a black person that it doesn't matter because you are "color blind" so it doesn't matter.
And yes, not many Jews or Black people will tell you that.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)are black! They may or may not also be religious Jews. But they are black.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)I am unsure as to why that strawman was erected. The point of the OP was that he is Jewish and he is a minority. The point of the OP was that Jews face discrimination for being Jews. My comment was directed at people who claim his being Jewish doesn't matter because "they don't see it" is similar to those who claim to be "colorblind."
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)And *THAT* claim is absurd.
And there were other people who admitted that they didn't even know he was Jewish until this OP. Therefore, how would they know he's a member of a minority group unless he stated as fact. (I always knew he is Jewish.)
Finally, there's been some discussion that he doesn't necessarily consider himself a religious Jew. Would that therefore mean he's an ethnic Jew? I'm not sure. I don't know his background that well.
The bottom line: for many people who do not know, Bernie Sanders is a white man unless he specifically says he's a Jewish white man.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)If you are seeing that claimed here there are two possibilities, 1) the person is ignorant of what ethnicity means and is confusing it with race (always a possibility), or, 2) the person has let their mask slip and they are exposing themselves as a neo-Nazi white supremacist. The only time I have ever encountered someone thinking or believing Jews who are white really aren't are neo-Nazis and racial supremacists. After the shooting at the Jewish Center in Kansas, the neo-Nazis lamented that white people were killed but no Jews. In a situation where Jews are the victims, they distinguish between us and other white people.
And? Just because people don't know, doesn't make it any less true.
Jews come in three varieties, religious, ethnic, and both. Bernie is ethnically Jewish, used to be religiously Jewish, but by all accounts now, seems to be atheist. His win could be a two-fer and put a Jew and an atheist in the White House, which has never been done.
No, the bottom line is he is Jewish. Period. Whether people know or not is irrelevant up to a point. What does seem to be the bottom line, which is why Bonobo wrote the piece, is some don't want to acknowledge Sanders is a minority. Just because he is a male, doesn't mean he isn't a minority; he is a Jew. Just because his skin is white, doesn't mean he isn't a minority; he is a Jew. Just because he isn't GBLT, doesn't mean he isn't a minority; he is a Jew. And just like the experiences of those groups who seem to be suggesting he isn't a "real" minority, which show profound ignorance and narcissism, Jews are a minority and that experience, for most, has forged who they are and how they view the world. Part of the view is deeply affected by the hate directed at us, which is called anti-Semitism. It is real. It is deadly. It is a factor for which Jews have to navigate.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I wish I had written that.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I will support Bernie Sanders through a write in in the general.
I hope I live long enough to see an atheist as President.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)He's a Jewish atheist.
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)I don't like religion in government.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)as well they should, and are atheists. I can think of a number of prominent scientists, among them Albert Einstein, Carl Sagan and Stephen Weinberg, and that's just off the top of my head.
For a much more complete list, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_atheists_and_agnostics#Formal.2C_natural_and_applied_sciences
SnohoDem
(1,036 posts)but I think Bernie will be fine.
The two days I've been proudest to be an American was when we landed on the moon and when we elected Barack Hussein Obama as president. Like Boomer said above, there's a lot to celebrate. We're breaking down these walls. I support Bernie now and I'll support Hillary if she wins the primaries.
I'm old, white, male, and not Jewish, but I want to talk about antisemitism. Please indulge me.
The only incident I ever saw was when I was in the fourth grade and a boy called another boy a 'dirty Jew'. I didn't understand and my mom just said, "Don't ever do anything like that." Pretty complex concept for a ten year old, and she kept it simple. We studied WW2 in high school and I understood a little more.
It hit home when I was about 19 (1974-75) and working as a counselor in a Jewish Community Center in Houston, Texas. The lady in the little cafe downstairs seemed old because I was so young. She taught me to love bagels and was always trying to feed me because I was quite thin. She was just the sweet old lady that ran the cafe in the basement. She had a German accent.
One day she served me and her sleeve pulled up and I saw the tattoo on the inside of her forearm. I knew what it was. I almost started crying. She saw the horror and revulsion on my face, I guess, and SHE consoled ME. "Oh, schatz, don't worry. It was a long time ago. I'm fine." She never told me which camp. It wasn't important. We never spoke of it again. The little old lady who treated me like a nephew had survived a concentration camp.
Sounds like a scene from a movie? I think it's been done more than once. But this really happened. It hit me like a train. It's been used in movies because the effect is so strong. You know the history, but the history is just numbers. The tattoo was just numbers, too.
Thanks for reading.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)My grandparents didn't want to talk about tit either.
They NEEDED to get beyond it.
It was their children who vowed to make sure it wouldn't happen to them or their children.
SnohoDem
(1,036 posts)not a movie, not history. Real.
I was dating a Jewish girl at the time, whom I'd met elsewhere - not at the JCC. Her parents were really sweet and always tried to involve me in holidays. They were just sharing their culture. We were kids and dating. No big deal and she was going off to college.
She was a brilliant, beautiful girl. She's a doctor now. Runs a clinic for disadvantaged kids.
She would have been gassed. Or shot. Or worked to death. Same for her parents and her little brother.
I've been living in Thailand for the last 7.5 years and I've put up with REALLY mild discrimination. I'm the 'other'. I'm different. It's been good for me. At least I've seen some tiny hint of what discrimination is.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I am sure I know how you feel.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Sometimes the looks I get from people. It is probably easier for those of us who have lived in abroad (especially Asia) to at least somewhat understand what minorities in the US experience.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)DFW
(54,400 posts)A guy I know from Den Haag still has his number tattooed on his arm. He is an Auschwitz survivor. He is also a soccer fanatic. One time, he accompanied the Dutch national team to a match in Poland. While he was there, he made a side trip to Auschwitz, After he got back, I asked him why in the world he would ever want to go back there. He said he wanted to gloat at the ruins and say "I'm still here, and you're not." He married an Austrian Catholic, so it's not like he bore any grudges. He was neither overly proud nor in the least ashamed of his ethnic identity. Things were what they were. I wish we could all adopt that attitude. You would think that if an Auschwitz survivor can, we all could.
A friend of mine once sent me the following story. He was once portrayed (very inaccurately) by Robin Williams in a film. His sense of humor is very different from Williams' characterization of him, but still......maybe it will lighten things up here for ten seconds or so:
A US Navy cruiser anchored in Mississippi for a week's shore leave.
The first evening, the ship's Captain received the following note from
the wife of a very wealthy and influential plantation owner:
"Dear Captain, Thursday will be my daughter Melinda's Debutante Ball.
I would like you to send four well-mannered, handsome, unmarried
officers in their formal dress uniforms to attend the dance."
"They should arrive promptly at 8:00 PM prepared for an evening of
polite Southern conversation. They should be excellent dancers, as
they will be the escorts of lovely refined young ladies. One last
point: *"No Jews please."*
Sending a written message by his own yeoman, the captain replied:
"Madam, thank you for your invitation. In order to present the widest
possible knowledge base for polite conversation, I am sending four of
my best and most prized officers."
"One is a lieutenant commander, and a graduate of Annapolis with an
additional Masters degree from MIT in fluid technologies and ship
design."
"The second is a Lieutenant, one of our helicopter pilots, and a
graduate of Northwestern University in Chicago , with a BS in
Aeronautical Engineering. His Masters Degree and PhD. In Aeronautical
and Mechanical Engineering are from Texas Tech University and he is
also an astronaut candidate."
"The third officer is also a lieutenant, with degrees in both computer
systems and information technology from SMU and he is awaiting
notification on his Doctoral Dissertation from Cal Tech."
"Finally, the fourth officer, also a lieutenant commander, is our
ship's doctor, with an undergraduate degree from the University of
Georgia and his medical degree is from the University of North
Carolina . We are very proud of him, as he is also a senior fellow in
Trauma Surgery at Bethesda ."
Upon receiving this letter, Melinda's mother was quite excited and
looked forward to Thursday with pleasure. Her daughter would be
escorted by four handsome naval officers without peer (and the other
women in her social circle would be insanely jealous).
At precisely 8:00 PM on Thursday, Melinda's mother heard a polite rap
at the door which she opened to find, in full dress uniform, four very
handsome, smiling Black officers.
Her mouth fell open, but pulling herself together, she stammered,
"There must be some mistake."
"No, Madam," said the first officer.
"Captain Goldberg never makes mistakes."
enigmatic
(15,021 posts)Love Love Love this!
DFW
(54,400 posts)He's the sort of guy you could sit down with for hours on end and never get bored or touch on the same subject twice.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)DFW
(54,400 posts)Like your avatar, by the way. She remains a friend, and is one who might have been our first woman president if not for Jan. 8........
[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]
Great photo!!! I have so much admiration and respect for Gabby Giffords.
I support Gabby and Mark's "Americans for Responsible Solutions" organization. That tragedy hit me hard because I have deep lasting ties to AZ. I love that state. I sobbed my eyes out on that horrible day.
DFW
(54,400 posts)I do have strong ties to Gabby. We had just celebrated New Year's together and had planned to meet up for dinner in Washington when I got there around January 14th. I flew from New York to Dallas on the 8th. It hadn't yet happened when I took off. In the taxi from DFW to the house, I turned on the laptop and saw the news. I was phoning and texting like mad to our mutual friends, but at that point no one knew any more than anyone else.
I didn't see her for nearly two years after she was shot, and didn't know if she would still recognize me when we next met. But she let out a squeal of delight when she saw me and reached for me with her good arm, and that erased all doubts in less than a second.
I am a big supporter of ARS, too, by the way
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)And if he is elected - he will have as hard a row to hoe as Obama did.
Just as Clinton would.
I hate when people gild the lily Bonobo. These folks at DU who do what you say (I've seen that one thread in particular) -may not be hateful towards Jewish people themselves -
But they are naive if they believe if it's isn't a big issue to the bigots in America.
PeteSelman
(1,508 posts)His religion doesn't make him less white.
I love him to death but things are what they are.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)No offense to you, but you really don't understand what it means to be Jewish.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)It's not a choice between white OR Jewish, any more than a choice between black OR Jewish and female OR Jewish.
What a bizarre non-distinction.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I bet Sanders is judged harshly off his appearance when he walks into a new restaurant.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and that he's a Shylock, also that his people killed Jesus.
And yeah in fact some anti-Semites would judge him harshly based solely on his perceived Jewish looks.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)The oppression directed at the wealthy white American male. I have seen it all now.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)as the discrimination faced by others, but the bigotry is there.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)their foreheads so that they are more recognizable to bigots, and therefore justify and prove to you the reality of Anti-Semitism and homophobia?
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)Mine would look like my avatar. Double the "fun".
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 8, 2015, 03:43 PM - Edit history (1)
lol. But keep going. At least the emoticon is cute. Strange reply with a built in incorrect assumption. I love it.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)As far as I know, I don't have any Jewish ancestry, but I've had to tell anti-Semites to go fuck themselves too often to not be aware that there is still a fairly large and unhealthy undercurrent of anti-Semitism present in this country.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)And you did just that. Where did homophobe even come from as you directed it at me? I'm just not on board with concerns of the oppression of the rich white male in the US. I have no clue what this has to do with being educated on homophobia as you entertain, but it doesn't seem to be the only disconnect.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Certainly, the Holocaust is nothing compared to the male gaze.
My mom is old enough to remember when her family could only vacation at certain hotels in August, because that was the month of the summer when they let "the Jews" in.
what sort of restaurants are you going to, where random people are offering input on how they "judge" your appearance?
tanbrown
(32 posts)if you think the "male gaze" is the biggest problem females face in this beautiful world, please open your newspaper, call your local rape crisis center, your domestic violence shelter, or simply ask your five favorite women about their experiences.
I am Jewish and a woman. My family is eastern European , or was, before they went up in smoke. For me, being female has been a far greater threat to my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness than being Jewish.
Are you Jewish? Are you female? When you speak dismissively about the male gaze and reverently about the Holocaust, who are you speaking for?
I am new to this site. I don't know if any of the fine progressive people here - like you - think that my opinion and experiences are worth listening to. If so, I am happy to discuss them with you. If not... ah, well; that is something you might want to think about! Because it seems to me that many people participating in this "JEWS AGAINST WOMEN; WHO IS WORSE OFF?" stuff are not Jewish females, so they are talking out of their gentile and/or masculine asses.
Even I, with my experiences, am just one person. I can't speak for all Jews or all women. But I can speak for one of each.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)I'm trying to envision what precisely is happening in these new restaurants, with all the appearance-judging.
I'm speaking for myself, and I don't need to justify it to you.
Welcome to DU.
tanbrown
(32 posts)And thank you for the welcome - my first!
But as a woman, I found your comment kinda blind. My take on the post above (in case you are interested in the opinion of a woman) is that the poster was pointing out that most Jews aren't recognizable as such and don't get casual on-the-street prejudice thrown at them, whereas for women (unless in drag) it's a constant fact of life.
You are choosing to take his/her post at it's tiniest, silliest possible meaning. That is your choice. But I hope some progressive people here will take the poster's point and mull it over.
Someone above (maybe you; I didn't notice) wrote that "it's been centuries since a woman was burned at the stake; the Holocaust was 70 years ago." And yet... my Monday newspaper details two local women shot to death by their male lovers, just in my mid-sized metro region, just over this past weekend. So it is weird to me that anyone on a progressive site would speak dismissively of the problems faced by women. (We Jews are not murdered often for our Jewishness. The threat is there - but in America, at least, it feels very far away.)
Perhaps I misunderstood you. I would like to think so.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)judging.
I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to understand exactly what sorts of "new restaurants" one is going to, and who the patrons are, and how they are expressly communicating their appearance-judging behavior.
I'm asking these things, because that was the statement made. If it is tiny and silly, take it up with the person who actually said it.
And consequently, I offered a concrete personal example of discrimination: Being told "sorry, your family can't stay in our hotel until August, because that's when we let the Jews in".
tanbrown
(32 posts)... I had a hope that you would say, "Yes; I am interested; please show me how the world looks through your particular eyes." And that an exchange of info would result and you might be willing to learn something new. (Who knows; you might turn out to have experiences that I could learn from, too.)
You seem more interested in digging yourself into your little fortress and reinforcing the walls so you can keep rethinking the thoughts you are already convinced of, with no questions or self-doubt allowed to penetrate.
Okay. That's human nature and it's your right. Have a nice evening.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Word to the wise; assuming, since you just signed up, you've never been on DU before---
you happen to have walked on stage at the beginning of what is undoubtedly going to be a fairly nasty primary season, and primary seasons are ALWAYS nasty on DU.
It is only going to get worse.
Harry_Scrote
(121 posts)Isn't the question I need an answer to. Rather, do I think he can do the job he's running for? The answer is yes. He could be purple with polka dots and I'd still support him.
tanbrown
(32 posts)I have a dream that someday, we will have had enough leaders of all sexes, shapes, faiths, and color schemes...
... that when a purple polka-dotted candidate throws her yarmulke into the ring, the only thing people will say is "well, the last purple polka-dotted president wasn't too great, but that doesn't predict anything about this new hopeful. I just want to know, where does she stand on the issues?"
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)...and Jewish. Not sure if he's a religious or ethnic Jew, but to assert that he's not white. Could've fooled me.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)that of a minority. Women are not a minority in this country,
but Jewish people are.
The question comes up with discrimination, and both groups
suffer from that in many though also different ways.
The main question however for me is:
We elected one member of a discriminated minority for 8 years, will the
country try another one in 2016? Will the country be
willing to give the Dems more time?
Time will tell. I am not sure that everything depends
on policies, because a lot of voters are willingly
ignorant. This applies mostly to the GE, though.
underpants
(182,826 posts)dflprincess
(28,079 posts)In the U.S. this has mostly been done with race but religion has been used as well.
Whatever groups are used it's usually done to keep people from noticing that their economic situations give them a good deal more in common than their race or religion make them different.
I've noticed this tactic being used on DU since Bernie declared his candidacy. His message is ignored while he's slammed for being an "old white guy" (like he can help that). Meanwhile his minority status is either used against him or treated as "not really a minority". John Kennedy's religious affiliation was also attacked this way and sometimes his ethnicity was tossed in as well.
I'd expect it from Republicans, sad to see Democrats using these tactics.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)Have you checked out how black Jews in Israel are being treated lately? Even Donald Sterling admitted that they are treated worst than dogs. And there are plenty of white Jews who can be just as insensitive to race issues as Protestant, Catholic, and members of Islamic groups here in America. Yes, blacks and Jews share a common experience with discrimination. However, many white Jews have been able to assimilate easily due to their white skin privilege. Some conservative ones began to look down on blacks who "have not made it". The infamous Bakke Supreme Court affirmative action case was one example of how some American Jews asserted that black Americans were getting into schools and hired for jobs that they weren't qualified for. Then, there's the resentment. What happened in Brooklyn. Jesse Jackson's ill-witted statements. Misunderstandings. I could go on and on. So there's a bit of a schism that exists between blacks and Jews that wasn't there before. The bottom line is that while both are minority groups, one group has been able to assimilate fully even while confronting unimaginable unfairness, discrimination, anti-seminitism. The other group has not faired as well for many very complicated reasons.
Jews are a minority but most who immigrated to this country in the early 20th century are white and therefore enjoy white skin privilege. Bernie is no exception and in fact, I've heard him admit as much.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)I heard a repub quip about "another Jew Bernie (referring to Bernie Maddow) coming to steal your money". That's not my thinking, but the kind of thing that you would hear in some casual circles. It's only been the last few years that country clubs and yacht clubs in FL brag they have their first Jewish members or officers. Some still quietly don't encourage Jewish (or black or hispanic) members. Florida has Jewish communities that are sometimes a little segregated, but I think there still is some discrimination.
Unfortunately, I don't think he can win here.
Every winning candidate in Florida for the last few elections (and some losing candidates) have run ads that clearly allude to their "Christian" background, faith, etc.
If Bernie had name recognition here (he doesn't), the attack ads against him would indicate he is Jewish, and it would cost him independent and crossover votes. It's sad in the 21st century, but that's what I see. In a close race in most of the South, being Jewish would be a negative.
ecstatic
(32,705 posts)Didn't know he was Jewish (and don't care, it doesn't affect my opinion of him one way or another).
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Or those who say "It doesn't matter to me, why does it matter to you?"
Well, today we see why.
orpupilofnature57
(15,472 posts)talks about issues more than being Jewish, Polish, ahead of the loop on so many issues, he's secular in the best way by not blurring the lines of Heart and Head, and his the only Canidate who truley wants to stick to the issues .
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Being Jewish does not make you a RACIAL minority.
By benefit of white skin, Jews can disappear into the white population. Black people can't do that.
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)Interestingly enough, in this entire thread, I haven't seen ONE poster claim Sanders isn't white, I have only seen the accusation, which makes the accusation a strawman.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)and that this is significant.
I don't see the significance.
Bernie is just another white person, in relationship to white privilege.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)Sanders IS a minority. The fact you don't see the significance is telling.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Jews, currently, do not suffer anywhere near the bigotry that still exists for black people. This is because they have white privilege. In many areas in American life, Jews are looked up to for their accomplishments.
At one time, like many other immigrant groups, Jews in the US faced persecution, but that has largely dissipated. Where is there widespread anti-Semitism in the United States today?
Now? Not fifty years ago, but now?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)A white supremacist yelled, "Heil Hitler," after he was taken into custody in connection with the Passover Eve fatal shooting of three at two Jewish-related sites in the Kansas City area.
A 14-year-old boy and his grandfather were killed outside the Jewish Community Center of Greater Kansas City. They were apparently inside a car. A female was killed a few minutes later in the parking lot at Village Shalom, an assisted living facility.
The suspect shot at two other people, but the bullets did not hit them, said Overland Park police Chief John Douglass.
A dozen or more shots may have been fired based on evidence at the scenes.
The victims apparently did not know their killer, Douglass said.
Glenn Frazier Cross, 73, was arrested at 1:28 p.m. He is being held by Overland Park police on multiple charges including premeditated first-degree murder, according to online jail records.
Cross, who also goes by Glenn Miller, is a known white supremacist and known for his anti-Semitic thoughts. He is a former Grand Dragon of the Carolina Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. He is a perennial candidate for office, including running in 2006 against then-U.S. Rep. Roy Blunt (R-MO). He ran against Blunt in 2010 when Blunt was elected to the Senate.
Read more: http://www.kctv5.com/story/25235053/shooting-reported-at-overland-park-jewish-community-center#ixzz3cj7DBMVI
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)It isn't a contest. Bigotry against anyone should be addressed. PERIOD. It is irrelevant HOW MUCH bigotry there is, it is there and that is the issue!