The only people who's identities I tend to reject are authoritarians.

I have full authority over my own life. Who are you?

Who is on board with trans rights, because they recognize a person's right to individual autonomy in the face of societal expectations and who is on board because they just absorb the party line.

If someone says they're Jewish and survived the holocaust and they're not and didn't, that's not ok. And that is not so far off from what Rachel Doziel did though it not as extreme.

She claimed experiences she didn't have in forging her identity

Just because someone didn't grow up with the same problems that women encounter in our society, doesn't mean they didn't have other problems that come from their deeply felt identity not being in sync with their body.

Same thing applies for this woman. I suspect she lied, because of societal pressures.

My opinion: people can be whatever they want to be in their own heads, but trying to dictate how others must react is a step too far.

we can't point out that no, actually he skipped out on that? Or when somebody who never served in the military claims to have done so, actual veterans can't get upset because that would be against somebody's self-identity?

You don't get to appropriate somebody else's life for your own. It appears that the woman was lying. That isn't a self-identity issue, that's being a craptastic human being. Even if she had only good intentions, she still lied which isn't something to respect.

And it actually does have an impact on other people. What happens to that charter now, or even to the larger NAACP at either the state or national level? What happens to the work that was being done at that chapter that now gets left in the lurch because she lied?

So no, I won't respect her identity, because it's apparently complete bullshit.

However, why do you think she did that? I guarantee you it was because she knew people would never accept her identity if she told the truth.

She has been a strong and vocal advocate for civil rights and basically revived the local chapter of the NAACP. The only people who should have an issue with this are people who think they can dictate other people's core identities to them.

She wanted to be President of the Spokane NAACP and so she created a false biography.

If you're going to slander someone you should get your facts straight.

Speaking of getting your facts straight.

Ms. White bread didn't grow up black, never got treated black, doesn't have black ancestry, has never faced the pain, the discrimination, the hate that our society dumps on black folks.

Being black is not a phase or experiment or something one can dabble in.

They didn't grow up as a woman and encounter those difficulties. However, trans people have a struggle all their own and to diminish their experience and question their identity is just wrong.

Oh and given that she has been living as a black woman who is a vocal advocate for the cause of civil rights for over a decade, saying she isn't familiar at all with the struggle of African Americans like herself is just plain wrong.

Seriously, if you made the exact same argument about gender instead of race you'd rightly be viewed as a bigot on this forum. How is this any different? Is race more sacred than gender?

They aren't men pretending to be women, they aren't men choosing to be women.

They are women.

So, no, NOT the same.

"trans" is an adjective modifying "woman". You don't say "blondewoman". (Sorry, but seeing people keep doing this is driving me fucking batshit.)

I do my best.

:shrugs:

(Granted, most of DU fall under that rubric, when it comes to this subject.)

Gender and Race are both social constructs and people have the right to define themselves however they want to. You are not addressing the crux of my argument, just asserting something as a blind-truth.

How are they different?

They are being themselves. They are being who they were born as.

Done tilting at the windmills of willful ignorance.

Again you can't show me how they are different.

Any more than there is any such thing as trans gay.

What's a trans race, Kurska? What would a trans gay look like? Someone who "chooses" to identify as gay to insulate them from certain kinds of criticism while posing as a gay guy? Maybe?

I've been open about my sexuality for nearly a decade while I have been posting here. I've posted personal information about myself and my relationships. I'm currently in a committed and loving relationship with another man.

If you're going to do it just come out and say it don't be cute about it.

If you're going to actually have the intellectual honesty to do it, then do it.

Oh, ok.

I'm a gay man and I've been open about that for nearly a decade while posting here.

You got skype, I'd be happy to drag you into a skype call with me and my devoted boyfriend when he is back tomorrow. I can also show you skype logs dating back years. I'm most certainly not going to show you private pictures of my sexual encounters.

If you're going to accuse me of something, put your money where your mouth is or you can frankly shut the hell up.

That's six+ years not ten years. And I've been here for a decade, and I've never seen you ever posting in the LGBT forum in either DU2 or DU3. You have posted nothing that ever suggests you are an ally to any oppressed group.

Your opinion on the topic in the OP, however, is quite in line with everything you've ever posted in your quite less than a decade here.

I'd be happy to drag you into a skype call with my boyfriend when he is back tomorrow. I can also show you skype logs dating back years.

If you're going to question me, you better be willing to put your money where your mouth is or shut the hell up. All that is going to result is you being proved wrong.

Oh, I'm also a gay furry which I have also never made a secret of either. Want me to go post a journal on my FA profile that is literally filled with gay furry porn that I commissioned of my fursona for me and my friends?

I will be happy to do that.

However, people who are truly oppressed know what the experience is actually like and actually show empathy, not their porn records, hon. Dennis Hastert "chose" to be straight, but hey.

Only one of us looks like an idiot.

You're saying I'm not a gay male. I have tons of evidence to prove I am.

Clearly, I stole all these things that go back years showing my sexuality on the off chance that someone would question my sexuality on DU.

Seriously WTF.

You just apparently can't handle that a gay man could, gasp, actually disagree with you. As if gay people are some monolithic group that you presume to speak for.

Again if you're going to question me on my basic identity, you need to put up or shut up. Legit.

If being gay is a social construct like race or gender, then why so emotional? It's just something we all choose, one way or another, right?

You are free to now leave this subthread with your tail between your legs. I'm gay. I could prove it to any person's satisfaction easily. Deal with it.

I never said being gay, straight or trans is a choice. I said that we should respect people's identities when they profess them. Which is a lesson you very obviously need to learn, given what just happened when I so clearly proved you wrong when you questioned mine.

I started posting on DU before I was 18, which would be a huge problem, except the age to use DU is 13, not 18, go check out account creation. And no I didn't say a decade, I said close to decade. Nearly 7 years now, almost a decade sounds right to me. This is the only account I've ever used here. I'm well over 18 now, literally who cares.

So, done yet? Oh I love how you said I never posted anything supportive of gay rights, but you used an example of me posting about gay rights.

I'm who I claim to be. I can provide ample evidence if you really want it.

But thanks for digging through my posting history to try and figure out how old I am. That isn't super creepy or anything.

That was your first tall tale, the "Kurska" account dates from 2008.

I'm sure the rest of your audience can do the math. If you've been watching gay porn on the internet before 2003, you were sure at shit precocious.

Youtube wasn't invented until 2005. So whatever logs you might offer would be dirty socks. lol

I never claimed to be here for a decade, I've been here for almost 7 years. Oh wow, my bad.

What are you even talking about... do you seriously think people watch gay porn on youtube?

Again, you're just coming off as incredibly creepy.

I was talking about skype logs with my boyfriend who I have been with for years. I'm several years over 18, as you've shown by digging up a post where I was 21 3 years ago.

You think it is creepy I offered to prove I've been into gay porn for years? Then maybe you shouldn't have tried to pry into my private sexual and personal life and then dug through my posting history, buddy.

Again, this is incredibly creepy.

Next time don't offer to show someone your personal information, when you claim that you have been a minor for much of your DU posting history. You don't get it both ways. Creepy is offering to send someone information unsolicited. I don't give a shit.

At any rate, you could claim you are 50 years old, by the logic of your OP. According to you, facts don't matter, only the feeling you have about what you claim about your identity.

You said I wasn't gay. I, gasp, offered to prove I had been active in the gay furry community. If you didn't want to know about my personal sex life, you shouldn't have questioned it.

I really enjoy really hard and wonderful sex with my boyfriend, which often includes bondage. Sometimes we even record it. I'm a gay furry who goes to conventions and has consensual kinky sex with others. I get art done of my furry character having gay sex with others. If you find that information disturbing, don't pry into my personal sexual life like you just did. If you don't like the answers, don't ask the question.

If you're going to call me a sekret hetreo claiming for years to be a gay furry to get some kind of DU street cred. You better be prepared for the answers, because I'm a proud openly gay man and I'm not at all ashamed of that or my sexuality. I have no shame for who I am and I'll proudly defend my identity when it is questioned.

*Mic drop*

Identity is just a matter of perspective. It seems strange to get so emotional over it, when one's personal experience with an identity isn't paramount.

You can pick anything you like to be. Why should you need proof or experience or a lifelong record with your identity? Anyone could pick that up and live it, right? Your OP said we should respect that. So it shouldn't matter who believes it or not.

Which you then provided a perfect example of why, when you questioned mine and I proved that I was.

Ya know why, people know themselves better than you do.

I'm happy to provide this wonderful life lesson.

Your hidden post for doing so is also a good lesson, enjoy it.

The government makes diversity scholarships available for Native Americans. I can then claim to identify myself as a Native American and grab one of the scholarships?

Reminds me of the federal government back in the 80s wanting everybody in Civil Service to check a block and choose a race. In one office, 80% of the employees chose Aleut/Alaskan Native. The directive came down that supervisors should discreetly examine their employees to determine if someone had checked the wrong block.

I own a factory that employs all white males. The EEO comes around to check out my diversity. My employees all tell the EEO that they identify as women and/or minorities in appropriate numbers to indicate that I have model diversity.

The bigoted point of view is that a trans woman didn't grow up as a woman.

A trans woman has always been a trans woman, even if they didn't experience every single aspect of what it is like to grow up in a society that treats men and women differently.

"You could say exactly the same thing about a transwoman. They didn't grow up as a woman and encounter those difficulties."

That is not true of a trans woman. It is true of a white woman who didn't grow up as Black. It is not a "logical extension," of the other poster, it is your opinion.

And the opinion of hate group vdare too. Congratulations. https://twitter.com/vdare/status/609348165486157825

I was specifically talking about the social realities of perceived gender. It is funny how things look when you remove them from all context.

even though they did not grow up in that social reality--and put on the old, trans women are rilly men so white women can be black ok?

And yeah, we all know you are trying to be something you are not, despite what you "choose."

I think it generally is wrong to tell someone they aren't who they claim to be. I agree that appropriating culture is wrong. But people who culturally appropriate usually don't claim that culture as their identity.

Sexuality, gender identity, and so on, are things which are innate and have a biological/neurological basis. "Race" is a socially constructed category. For you to compare the two is horrendously offensive, and the fact that you think it's a reasonable comparison, in any way, only illustrates your own ignorance.

GENDER identity and gender roles are social constructs. The fact that you don't know this is, frankly, astounding to me.

SEX is a biological aspect that doesn't necessary have to influence your personal gender identity.

Saying gender is about your biology is the exact line of attack people use to diminish transpeople.

Regardless, you're saying that our biology rules us and that decides what genders we should be allowed to claim. Again, I find that incredibly offensive and an insult to the idea of personal anatomy. Would you only use the correct pronouns for a trans woman if you had a brain scan showing they have a "female" brain? What if they had one showing a "male" brain, would you then try and correct them and say they are actually a man?

As someone who has actually worked with neuroimaging in a professional capacity, I understand the massive limitations of it and the huge individual differences between people. To propose we use it to question the deeply felt feelings of others about their identity is ridiculous to me and speaks more to your lack of knowledge on the subject matter than anything.

You have a pride flag as your avatar. Tell us how you decided to be gay. Clearly that must be the same sort of thing, no?

Do you know that when they do neuroimaging studies they use templates to aggregate data across different brains? That is how neuroimaging studies work. All those pretty pictures you see of brain activation in research papers are usually carefully constructs brains drawn from many different participants whose data is molded to the template.

This is a real fact that I have encountered and learned about while talking to one of the foremost experts in the field. Caucasians templates actually don't fit east Asian brains very well. In fact, if you look into it, when you do neuroimaging studies you need to use different templates for people from vastly different geographic areas. Now that doesn't mean that one race thinks differently from the other, the differences aren't huge, but they are enough to throw off the very sensitive equations used to construct the aggregate. However, if you're going to say that gender is a biological reality because of neuroimaging you'd have to say that race is too. I think neither of them are, because the differences that do exist actually aren't that large.

Neither of them are biological realities, they are social constructs. The differences aren't that large, but if you're going to say one is biological because of minor brain differences, then you would have say the other is too.

Here I'll even do it for you.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3540754/

Or at least, there are differences on average between human population groups based on geographic origin--these differences tend to be, as noted, on average, not absolute; any two random people of different "races" may differ much less in any of these--and are clinal, meaning that they're fuzzy around the edges and shade into each other, but they're still there; things like differences in bone density, cranial structure, sweat glands, body fat distribution, root form of third molars, and a dozen other things that vary between what we think of as "races". If you gave a forensic anthropologist the skulls of a person from sub-Saharan Africa, one from Asia, and one from Europe, they'd most likely be able to identify their continental origin. Neuroimaging studies on transgender people have found differences that are more closely aligned to their self-reported gender identity; not necessarily identical, but closer on average. (This doesn't necessarily mean that those differences will be as distinct in all transgender individuals, just as ethnic differences are much blurrier at clinal boundaries...for instance in Russia where "Asian" shades into "European", or the south of Egypt where "Caucasian" shades into "African".)

(And I'm quite aware of how neuroimaging studies work, thanks, so you can save the assholish condescenscion.)

She didn't say she "identified" as black. She said she had biracial parents. That's not self-idenifitcation, that's a lie. How should we treat people who lie about being combat veterans when they run for office? Do we allow them to say it's an issue of self-identification?

It seems so to me.

I would say that under the specific conditions of present-day American society, a white person assuming a black identity is going to raise issues of cultural appropriation. But on a larger scale, there is a revolution occurring in the range of ways people can self-identity, and we're all going to have to come to terms with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

Otherkin are those who identify as partially or entirely non-human. Some say that they are, in spirit if not in body, not human. This is explained by some members of the otherkin community as possible through reincarnation, having a nonhuman soul, ancestry, or symbolic metaphor. Some scholars categorize this identity claim as "religious", because it is largely based on supernatural beliefs. Adherents more typically deny the religiousity of otherkinism, referring to it instead as simply a congenital condition, or a state of being. . . .

With regards to their online communities, otherkin largely function without formal authority structures, and mostly focus on support and information gathering, often dividing into more specific groups based on kintype. There are occasional offline gatherings, but the otherkin network is an almost entirely online phenomenon.

Some otherkin (such as elvenkin) claim they are allergic to iron (and products of modern technology), whilst other otherkin (such as dragonkin) claim that having no allergies is a sign of being an otherkin. Some otherkin also claim to be especially empathic and attuned to nature. Some claim to be able to shapeshift mentally or astrally—meaning that they experience the sense of being in their particular form while not actually changing physically.

The therian and vampire subcultures are related to the otherkin community, and are considered part of it by most otherkin, but are culturally and historically distinct movements of their own despite some overlap in membership.

Life ain't tumblr.

My husband is allergic to metal, and he likes D&D, but he does not claim to be an elf. However, he is half Iranian, and has experiences around that that he probably wouldn't have *chosen* to have, which is why identity isn't something you can slip on and off.

and take away their collection of bad urban fantasy novels. They can keep the D&D books though -- that's still cool.

It can depend in part on whether someone's claim about their identity is actually their own belief about their identity. I think we are allowed to question whether that is so. If it really is their identity, Otherwise, it may be more of a confidence operation than an identity.

It may also depend on how sane the belief is. If someone claims to be the Messiah, I am not going to sing Hallelujah or follow his or her instructions to save myself from damnation.

If someone truly believes something is his or her identity, I cannot change it. I can only be respectful and caring or not. If I can do that without placing myself at undue disadvantage or placing myself in undue danger, I do

He lived his life as a Native American so much so that most people truly thought he was and were surprised to find out he was an Italian guy from Louisiana.

His fibbing about his tribal connections is no worse than this lady's fibbing about being African American when evidence suggests she's not.

Us blacks should be happy that white woman pretented to be a black woman and we should shut up and grateful for the work she has done with the NAACP ?

Let's not talk about how she filed a fake hate crimes
Les not talk about Her claims to understand the struggle of black people
Let's not talk about falsifying docs to get into Howard

We just get over it smh

If she said she has an affinity for black folks and identifies with them most folks would be okay with that but she lied about her background and created a new identity. That was bound to ruffle people's feathers...

Obvious counter examples: counselling the traumatised, professional sports, performing strip searches or intimate examinations, casting for plays/films.

it would indeed solve the racism problem. Every POC can identify as white and if we respect that, then we have complete equality!

are. I think we are moving towards a society where people are free to define their own identity without having strangers come up and start telling them what they actually are. But it's happening slowly.

Your post #4 is spot on; this shows how many people actually "get it" (freedom for one's identity to be one's own), and how many are just going along with wherever the rest of their community does.