There is an easy way to get jobs back into the US.

People before Profits.

and job creation is very high.

Are you saying there's a way to return to a high level of manufacturing employment in the US, and that it's called "people before profits"? What would its concrete implementation be?

At an all employee meeting at my place of employment (a multinational conglomerate) the following was stated by the company CEO (slightly paraphrased because I did not record it)

Much higher taxes on capital gains, to incent companies to pour more money into wages, R&D, etc. But mostly we need people to have a sense of morality and shame when they invest.

means everything else one claims must be taken with an enormous teaspoon of salt.

Just because one no longer qualifies for unemployment benefits, does not mean that one has a) found a full time job or b) disappeared from US territory.

Can support their family on? McDonald's, Burger King, Wendy's, Wal Mart and tons of other low paying companies are hiring, but where are the $20/hr jobs?

No country the size of the United States has ever survived as an economic powerhouse with massive trade deficits. If we're not going to find ways to increase manufacturing, then we better start looking for the next country to groom to become leader of the world. If we don't, then A country like China or Russia will just take it.

It is a complex issue.

I think that CEOs and company bigwigs need to slow their roll on those obscene salaries, but even at that, I have to say that Recursion has made some salient points.

No one is going to operate defacto charities in the US to give people jobs. We simply need to figure out new paradigms rather than chase low-tech jobs that can be done by people who are less educated and will work for far less and call it a good wage.

pitchforks...like that will solve the problem (hint--it won't). EDIT--thank you for removing that unkind comment.

I support nothing--I am simply pointing out that this is a complex issue. Those people in newly emerging economies aren't going to say "Oh, well, the Americans want to make this geegaw that we've been making at 1/20th their salaries....we'll go back to our huts and scratch a living out of the dirt and shit in the rice paddy." They aren't going backwards, so it's stupid to insist that we can get back that which is gone. Newly industrialized countries are making the microwaves and fridges and small appliances and so forth. They want their kids to have running water and lights and an education and a toilet that flushes.

You WANTING the Maytag Repairman to sit on his duff while American workers make Maytag washers ain't gonna happen--not when foreign workers can make them cheaper and deliver them for less. That's just simple economics, it's not an "endorsement."

Citing wikipedia isn't going to change that fact. Businesses are in business to make money, for the most part. For every socially conscious person who is going to share the wealth, for every collective/cooperative effort that plays the "We're all in this together" game, there are a dozen, hell, a hundred Mitt Romneys who are going to put their factory overseas and sell the hell out of their products. There aren't enough rich liberals to support the socially conscious competiton, usually, and the wingnuts will just say "SUCKERS!!" and buy the cheaper stuff. People who can't afford to spend too much for a thing that they can get for less will follow after the wingnuts, even if they feel guilty about it. People will go for the best price. They'll talk a good game, but if they're pinching pennies they will do what needs must to get by.

And this is NOT MY FAULT. All I am doing is pointing out the obvious. So yeah--there it IS.

If I had an idea of how to change the situation, I'd surely mention it. But there are people who have been living in shitholes for generations, and they have seen the mountaintop, and they want more.

Trade barriers? Forget about it. The impetus is to more trade, not less.

We're just going to have to Get Smart, and make something the rest of the world really, REALLY wants, and only we have the skill, talent, grit and creativity to make.

change the resource distribution and downside responsibility problems.

Always the same faith based solution of educate and "uniquely creative" our way into the false premise of a privileged position particularly a sustainable one that won't be subject to the exact same forces causing the race to to the bottom scenario we have now.
It's just a carrot to chase when the only practicable way to protect our interests is to actually protect them rather than trickle down non solutions meant to placate the screwed and to squeeze more money for scamming buzzards to pick from the bones of the desperate and the government on the education for a job hamster wheel leading to greater debt loads but dubious opportunity.

The reason Americans are "exceptional" is because we come from all corners of the globe--we have strengths no other nation has for this reason. We are accepting of change, we are innovative, and we--most of us--are not AFRAID.

Your glass is half empty and evaporating. Mine's not.

We have to agree to disagree.

Fear of the idiocy of self-inflicted wounds from corporate boondoggles like TPP. It's well past time for our elected officials to adapt to a new paradigm...working for the people not corporations. And Mr. Hoyt you have no concept of isolation. This country has always engaged in vigorous trade and always will. Rejecting economic suicide pacts is not isolation its called common sense.

So as usual I am left to wonder what you are referring to with your 1 liners. If you are referring to major countries having trade agreements of their own, as noted previously, the difference in how it works for them and the U.S. is night and day...as vividly shown by the U.S. worlds leading trade deficits.

Northern European countries are party to numerous trade agreements but they have a way of making it work for them, as their historical trade statistics bear out. America does not...as our historical trade deficits and massive job losses bear out. And its because they have a degree of over corporations doing business in their country while corporations run our government. The difference is night and day. Keep on shilling.

The discussion is about TPP. I know you would like to infer that this is no different than other other trade agreements Europe is party to but are huge differences and making any comparison is meaningless.

like these trade deals do.

Outsourcing to India or China is the wild west: you do what you want and as long as you're following Chinese law it's fine.

Outsource to a country with an FTA and suddenly there's this whole other regulatory body (the WTO) that polices what you can and can't do. AFL can sue you if you keep your workers from organizing (they've done this dozens of times in Mexico).

I think they know their shit.

Activists have been dreaming of the level of engagement this has gotten, and hell even I'm glad about that, if we will be able to keep that energy and point it in a more useful direction (say, a $25/hour minimum wage).

Also, AFL-CIO, at least, would probably prefer for Congress to be able to set higher tariffs for any given country, so the free trade agreement model is one they fundamentally dislike. I disagree with them that that's the best solution, but that is what they support and it's a sensible position. But I think it's kind of like defending ferriers (the people who put shoes on horses) right when the automobile is coming out. SEIU's position is more complicated, because export of services has become so important to their members.

Its the other 80% of the agreement that is most threatening.

The controls over the internet, the near permanent copyright provisions, the prioritizing profits over national sovereignty, those (and the countless sections not publicized) are what makes it a true nightmare.

There may be plenty of good reasons to oppose the TPP.

TPP is much, much more than a trade deal.

TPP would give corporations the power to set new international laws that can override the
domestic laws of sovereign governments, in such areas as environmental protection, food safety, medicines. Corporations will be able to sue national govts and collect taxpayer compensation if they think any regulations or laws threaten to undermine the profits they expect. These "investor protections" are written into the agreement: global "investor state tribunals" will be the final arbiters. They'll trump any participating nation's legislators and judges. They'll trump our Supreme Court.

Think of what this does to democracy: The people we now elect to make our laws will have their power superseded by international tribunals, consisting of people we did not elect and have no power to vote out of office. It's a corporate power grab of such scope, it's a new paradigm all right, but not one that will make the world better for ordinary people.

Without a trade agreement, things are like India and China. The company can show up and throw its muscle around all it wants, and the only thing it's responsible to is the government of the country it's in.

Under a free trade agreement, the home country of a company can sue it for its operations in another country. That's an option we don't have with China and India.

rather than vastly expanded. I also don't know what you mean by a company "only being responsible to" the govt of the country it's in.

I have been reading very specific information about what's in the agreement. Presumably from what was leaked, and from officials who were allowed to read it but not take notes. The secrecy is very disturbing. If it is so wonderful we should be able to see what's in it. Instead it is being called "NAFTA on steroids" and a trojan horse--the trojan horse being the trade "benefits" that would accrue to us. There are, apparently, 29 chapters in the agreement and only five that deal with trade. The rest set rules that limit government power, not corporate power.

This is an excellent video that describes the TPP:

It's classified, your notes will be confiscated . . . but vote YES! It's a REALLY GOOD DEAL!

I get the bit about trying to head off China, but not without giving away control over things mentioned.

Your defeatist attitude aside. Take a look at northern Europe and these are nations on the rise and it is because they have trade policies that help grow their manufacturing and technology sectors. By your reasoning they should have lost their jobs like we have since no 1st world nation can undercut China's wages but lo and behold nations like Germany and Sweden are exporting powerhouses. You need to find better arguments. Better yet, you need to find the truth.

You're making a crucial mistake. US manufacturing output is bigger than it has ever been. US manufacturing employment is lower than it has ever been. The US will probably always be a manufacturing powerhouse, but we will continue to employ fewer and fewer people every year. Just like agriculture.

but lo and behold nations like Germany and Sweden are exporting powerhouses

And they engage in more free trade than we do. And Germany's economy is 70% services, just like ours.

The difference is Germany requires labor to have a voice in corporate governance. We need to do that too.

They do not allow foreign goods to be sold cheaper than German made goods. Thus there is no advantage to importing foreign made goods so factories do not move out of the countries.

Germany has much much lower tariffs than the US.

Your right about the robots. They are coming. I recently read Indian tech workers are now threatened by software automation. Basically software that writes back office software. I'm all for putting doctors out of work. Once that starts to happen we will see changes.

What I don't see much talk about is the decrease in tax revenue from this ongoing automation. The TPP still sucks inspite of all that.

Last edited Sat Jun 13, 2015, 03:05 AM - Edit history (1)

It requires that an outside tribunal hear cases rather than simply relying on a corrupt local judiciary. If thtt's a threat to sovereignty, I'm more or less for it.

What I don't see much talk about is the decrease in tax revenue from this ongoing automation

There's no particular need for it to decrease tax revenue. Why not make all taxes capital gains taxes, for that matter?

A corporate court. Cuz everyone knows that countries can't be trusted with their own sovereignty.

Your whole OP and premise is unraveling into an anti TPP manifesto.

AFL-CIO can and does sue Mexico for preventing workers from organizing. They usually win. They can't sue China because China doesn't have a free trade agreement with us, because they don't want AFL or Sierra to sue them under it.

They just don't need workers like they used to.

With automation we are no longer going to have large manufacturing labor pools.

Something I have realized though is that while manufacturing is lower as part of GDP it is still on the rise, again, I argue, due to automation and more efficient industrialization. We simply make more stuff with less people.

What happens when some venture capitalist from silicon valley makes a robot that can make very good clothing in a sewing machine? All those Mexican or Indian clothing maker jobs will be in deep trouble. But there won't necessarily be a huge rise in American clothing manufacturing jobs. Even the ones that are still around such as American Apparel would see a decline in the labor force for those goods.

I don't know why, but every time I see a TPP discussion or a trade discussion, I keep falling back to a basic income, because for me globalization is near an end, as far as I can see it for the United States, and we need a way to solve this problem.

And I imagine in 50 years or so the world will be there, but the road may be bumpy.

...that really, it is a symptom of our consumer culture.

I think I made the initial realization in this post here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5233560

But then I think the first time I invoked "living wage" / "basic income" with regards to TPP is lower in that subthread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5234537

TPP is a symptom of a government that is elected by consumers who want the cheapest shit possible for the least amount of effort possible (perceived effort, mind you; there's a whole other argument here how even cheap goods come at a huge cost to hard working Americans). This is not a slam on us Americans, we just found ourselves in a situation that is untenable.

The fucked up thing is that TPP will possibly make that road more bumpy because it may well kick the can down the road. I see basic income being something we're talking about in 15 years, though, automated cars should be causing a lot of labor controversy by then.

(Note: in my past posts there are always going to be inaccuracies, I since was informed about Germany's tax rate being different, but the basic arguments are still there. Nobody's perfect.)

It's a punt. I get why it's US policy, but I wish we were thinking longer term.

But, Art of the Possible, and all that, and sometimes a punt is your best play.

It sucks to say it but... yeah.

If there's a SOPA style protest I will be at the front lines. We have 60-90 days as far as I understand. I feel that it's going to be a meh moment in advocacy groups and I am no leader. No one will follow me.

pushing back on corporate domination, till the last black hole evaporates might not be long enough for that.

I don't think it is enough time to whip every Democrat in line not with a Democratic President leading the charge.

There is absolutely no reason to open the suspicious package, pushed by the same profiteering fucks, using the same arguments as always.

Too far upside-down on the risk to reward ratio to give a damn about what is in it enough to count on a bunch of Republicans to advance the good and stop the bad.

Just for arguments sake which TeaPubliKlan radical regressives in Congress do you think even MAYBE are going to be looking out for workers, wildlife, nature, and regulating corporations? Sure some will throw red meat "NO OBAMATRADE" but most are openly pro.

I don't see where the votes are to be found some of the areas of greatest concern are the the Republican agenda, by what means are they to be pressured when they are spreading their tentacles by definition and any friction will be subdued by the propaganda network.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of Valor. There is absolutely nothing Congressional TeaPubliKlans, Wall St, and the Chamber of Commerce are hot on that would be even moderately good.

there is just plain less work that has to be done and that which has to be done gets easier and easier. So we have to back off this work hard puritanical values, which meant something in 1600 but can't today. The whole idea of advancement is to make life better and easier, so we can survive with a lot less work. We have had more and more leisure as the centuries go by. But it shouldn't mean more poor people - it didn't before.

There was this special in TV panicking that Chinese people were starting to be able to afford washing machines and refrigerators. Like that was a bad thing. I guess they were more worried about the environment than the comfort of Chinese people, or if their concern was that the environment would be affected negatively then why do Americans get to be the only ones with washing machines and refrigerators?

Thanks for setting us straight.



/bye.

Make them high enough that any race to the bottom country will pay more to import than if they were made here or in other countries with environment, labor, safety, child labor, union, climate change rules. Make them REALLY hurt, like by 100% above. That will kill that game quick and restore countries to health and encourage the race to bottom countries to improve because they will be at disadvantage

That would make trade more or less cease, and knock about 30% off our GDP

If you remove the 1% leach class from the picture.

I totally acknowledge that that is a viable view. It's not the one I share, but you're actually owning what you're saying to its conclusion.

He just had it reversed.

I work at a multinational conglomerate and have worked at others before. What these Corporations do is by out businesses and then extort the local operations to pay them or else. They do not do anything to help the businesses but expect to get paid 10s or 100s of millions every quarter or they mothball the place. They add nearly zero value to the company, just strip off all they can from it and then discard the carcass including all of the people employed there.

That's all they are

nt

ISDS , I will always be against them. It's undemocratic.

They have a 70% success rate.

If you're against that, in the name of national sovereignty, I can respect that, but that's not where I stand.

Your propaganda on trade is but one example.

So, make an argument based on evidence for your position.

We're done here.

The world is more complex than that.

Just a load of exaggeration, supposition and corporate spin.

Argue that there's a way to bring mass manufacturing employment back.

Stop acting like this is a high school clique thing where you're facing off against the "corporatists" or "neoliberals" or whatever the word is now.

Debating you is like shooting fish in a barrel. You've got not a single piece of hard evidence to back up your exaggerated claims. You're all hat and no cattle, baby!

You state, "After I read it I may well be against it." Well, what's stopping you from reading it? And after you do, if you want to debate its merits, include references to page and line numbers for what you may claim it says.

As the Obama administration praises the benefits of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), backlash continues to grow against the deal. WikiLeaks has just published another section of the secret text — this one about public healthcare and the pharmaceutical industry. Newly revealed details of the draft show the TPP would give major pharmaceutical companies more power over public access to medicine and weaken public healthcare programs. The leaked draft also suggests the TPP would prevent Congress from passing reforms to lower drug costs. One of the practices that would be allowed is known as "evergreening." It lets drug companies extend the life of a patent by slightly modifying their product and then getting a new patent.
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/6/11/backlash_against_tpp_grows_as_leaked

As negotiations continue, WikiLeaks has published leaked chapters of the secret Trans-Pacific Partnership — a global trade deal between the United States and 11 other countries. The TPP would cover 40 percent of the global economy, but details have been concealed from the public. A recently disclosed "Investment Chapter" highlights the intent of U.S.-led negotiators to create a tribunal where corporations can sue governments if their laws interfere with a company’s claimed future profits. WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange warns the plan could chill the adoption of health and environmental regulations. http://www.democracynow.org/2015/5/27/julian_assange_on_the_trans_pacific

Watch more from our Julian Assange interview: Part 1 || Part 3 || Part 4 || Part 5
Transcript

WikiLeaks releases today 17 secret documents from the ongoing TISA (Trade In Services Agreement) negotiations which cover the United States, the European Union and 23 other countries including Turkey, Mexico, Canada, Australia, Pakistan, Taiwan & Israel -- which together comprise two-thirds of global GDP. "Services" now account for nearly 80 per cent of the US and EU economies and even in developing countries like Pakistan account for 53 per cent of the economy. While the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) has become well known in recent months in the United States, the TISA is the larger component of the strategic TPP-TISA-TTIP 'T-treaty trinity'. All parts of the trinity notably exclude the 'BRICS' countries of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.

The release coincides with TISA meetings at the ministerial level at the OECD in Paris today (3–5 June). The 'T-treaty trinity' of TPP-TISA-TTIP is also under consideration for collective 'Fast-Track' authority in Congress this month.

The TISA release today follows the WikiLeaks publication of the secret draft financial services annex of the TISA negotiations on 19 June 2014 showing the aim to further deregulate the financial sector, despite widespread consensus that lack of oversight and regulation was the main cause of the last global financial crisis of 2008. Today's release confirms the ongoing determination to deregulate. Furthermore, standstill clauses will tie the hands of future governments to implement changes in response to changing environment.

Today's release is the largest on secret TISA documents and covers numerous previously undisclosed areas. It contains drafts and annexes on issues such as air traffic, maritime, professional services, e-commerce, delivery services, transparency, domestic regulation, as well as several document on the positions of negotiating parties. WikiLeaks has also published detailed expert analysis of the topics covered in today's release.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/03/1390318/-TPP-BREAKING-Wikileaks-Leaks-New-Documents


And just for fun.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/06/12/1392695/-Obama-on-Hill-Now-and-try-seeing-this-TPP-text-online#
htpps://www.readthetpp.com/

That includes Germany and the Scandinavian countries even as their manufacturing output increases as it has in the US. Much of the employment decline is due to technology since there has been no decline in manufacturing output. However, these countries know how to protect the health of their workers and middle class despite this decline. As Bernie, as said - why can't we be more like Scandinavia?

republicans tried to protect American workers (or, more likely, the profits of the American corporations that supported their party and did not like competition in the US market) in the 1920's with higher tariffs and lower immigration. It did not work. But the 'magic' of tariffs as a way to solve domestic economic problems has never died, particularly among the right-wing base.

It did cause a big decline in imports and exports but did less than nothing for American workers. Income inequality hit historically high levels that we have still not equaled even in our current extreme inequality.

FDR knew trade restrictions did not work so he got rid of them and tried to set up a post-war world where national legislatures would have a difficult time falling back to the 'magic' of tariffs to solve problems. Of course, FDR also knew, as do Scandinavian countries today, that high/progressive taxes, strong safety nets and effective support for unions are just as necessary as trade.

That's a lesson that the US has effectively forgotten. Many, even on the left, look to a Coolidge/Hoover solution - restricted trade - rather than an FDR solution more trade and high/progressive taxes, strong safety nets and effective support for unions.

I have no interest in being shilled.

Or if they want to use the tax laws of this country to their advantage. There is nothing we can do?

Do you really believe that?

and it is the nothing we can do about it, according to you. We live in a global economy.

I would say that America is still the favorite marketplace of the world. We buy. They sell.

We have a $500 billion dollar trade deficit. Do you understand how that translates to jobs?

Last edited Sat Jun 13, 2015, 10:08 AM - Edit history (1)

in the large office where I work there were over 300 secretaries 25 years ago. Now, there are 29. Why? Computers.

There are online businesses hawking the merits of work-from-home jobs. Many of these jobs with decent pay and benefits were once in offices. Now, you're often in competition with people from all over the world and working for peanuts. Benefits are limited to not much more than being able to work in your pajamas. A typical typing/transcribing job pays by the "audio hour." So, if one of these employers states it pays $10 an audio hour (which is considered good), don't get excited. That works out to an actual $3.00 an hour, because it generally takes 3 minutes of typing to transcribe 1 minute of audio.

Compared to other countries we don't protect our manufacturers with tariffs that put imported goods at a disadvantage to domestically manufactured goods.

That's why the jobs are going.

If corporations can get away with paying peanuts to workers in foreign country plants and then importing their goods here with little or no tariffs, even with importations costs they're still making out like bandits so why would they keep plants open here where they have to pay living wages to Americans?

They won't and they don't. Our trade policies don't protect American workers and jobs, they work in favor of profitable corporations who want to be even more profitable (more money for executive compensation don't you know).

There is no loyalty to American workers or to America. It's all about CEOs and other top executives making even more money by cutting labor costs.

It's always cut, cut, cut. Austerity = humongous profits for the 1%, lost jobs and lower living standards for the 99%.

I don't want "free" trade. That's a different thing.

I want trade agreements based on rigorous environmental and labor standards. I want regulation of what we all to be imported into this country, based on those same standards. And I want U.S. companies who continue to outsource to pay a massive premium in taxes.

I'm open to all kinds of ideas on how to handle trade. None of them are "free."

we don't need that here! We want to dream we can be isolated and still rule the world! Which we are entitled to do! We may not be allowed to interfere militarily, but economically we should always be on top and the rest of the world should stay poor, so there!

that people don't want to hear.

that said, I think there is a lot more packed into this thing past factors that effect where jobs are that are good grounds to be against it.