General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOk....I've made up my mind.....I can't support Hillary...
First off, I am not a "basher" nor do I have a political axe to grind, these points are STRICTLY my opinions.
I'm not ready for for "The Clinton Experience" again. I got so sick of the Iras and the Mandys , and the Lannys
and the Susans that I almost got sick of politics.
I feel like she thinks it's some sort of Manifest Destiny
that entitles her to the White House. I'm not ready for more of the obfuscation, hazy facts, double speak
that plagued Bill's final term. Most importantly, I just can't trust her. Is she a hawk or dove ?...is she a liberal Democrat
or a "Third Wayer" ? , is she pro-Palestine or pro-Israel ? She just seems "slippery" to me. I just can't shake the feeling that
her agenda is not about advancing America, as much as it is advancing Clintonism.
Thanks for letting me voice my opinions without certain posters going into attack dog mode.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)why I prefer Bernie to her. I hope you don't get attacked too badly.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)space and they were pretty sad reporters apparently. I did mention how the press is getting pissed across the board about her not speaking to them and this was the answer: "This is the Hillary room."
I didn't notice. However, I find this instantaneous punch in the face pretty sad. Apparently, there is a minus zero tolerance for any deviation from the strict party line there. I had no idea.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)Nor on TPP! Could that be because she helped to organize the trade agreement????????????
Don't trust her either. Don't like the bad and worse to vote for.
First time in my life I'm happy.
BERNIE SANDERS MAKES ME *WANT* TO VOTE!!
Bubzer
(4,211 posts)Me too!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)That means they have no rebuttal.
clarice
(5,504 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)There is an element here who have never progressed beyond cartoons.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)Apartment 3G, Family Circus, and the booger picking pervert kid we all came across from elementary school flipping his crude drawings on the edge of a notebook or index cards but without the depth of contribution to the national dialog, coherence, or fun loving spirit replaced by heaping helpings of snark, condescension, and mean spiritedness.
Buns_of_Fire
(17,196 posts)Eons from now, when Cthulhu or whoever is rifling through this ancient site, looking for some good porn, they'll run across several posts filled with nothing but or or or occasionally (my favorite). And they'll see other posts (like this one) that do nothing but rattle on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and sometimes get to the point, but often don't. Don't worry about it. We all will be poopie-scooping for the Blankfein-Borg (aka Cthulhu) while the purest of heart ( ) will be supping on triple-pepperoni pizza while watching reruns of the Mary Tyler Moore Show with an endless supply of cold Guinness Extra Stout.
I know these things. I'm the Whistler.
GoneOffShore
(17,341 posts)Not only is it Hyper-DUZY level, but you win the Internets and the Googles forever!
Really brilliant stuff!
And only one smiley:
Romeo.lima333
(1,127 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)It is a cartoon.
Romeo.lima333
(1,127 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)...is incapable of composing a post that within our Community Standards,
then they need to study at the Beavis & Butthead Chatroom at AOL.
I have had posts alerted on....and hidden,
and I KNEW at the time I posted them they would probably be hidden,
but when I have 5 to spare, sometimes it is worth it.
Besides, EVERYBODY clicks on "Show Post", so the words are not lost.
Romeo.lima333
(1,127 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)My skin is full,
and I don't think the World could handle two of me.
Sometimes, I would like a twin surrogate to do stuff like get firewood, split it, and stack it,
or go to town and get supplies,
but I can do without.
svpadgham
(670 posts)Every time I think my skin is full I find a little more packed in there.
They broke that bvar22 mold after one use. But a firewood-splitting clone is every man's dream.
7962
(11,841 posts)I see it all the time and its happened once to me. yet some that ARE obvious violations are left alone.
RandiFan1290
(6,244 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)Unless you're just joking & pointing out that ANY post that gets hidden can be called "racism" around here.
RandiFan1290
(6,244 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)Just recently there was an OP on one long time member being banned simply because he make ONE poorly chosen post.
I've had 1 post hidden in 5 yrs.
You accuse that it was "racist". It was not. Had nothing to do with race. I guess you're one of the folks I referred to in my original response!
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)corkhead
(6,119 posts)Response to MohRokTah (Reply #2)
Post removed
morningfog
(18,115 posts)That is sarcasm, based on the asinine posts we read here recently.
pa28
(6,145 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)marble falls
(57,239 posts)or maybe she's the Rorschach test candidate.
NewSystemNeeded
(111 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)And then "bash away" with straight-out-of-right-wing-conspiracy Hillary hatin' 'anyone but' least factual opinion dirge possible.
You forgot this -
but I won't go into attack mode. You are entitled to your own opinion.
clarice
(5,504 posts)yallerdawg
(16,104 posts)Here it is!
clarice
(5,504 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)Comparing a future Hillary administration with Bill Clinton's is just wrong.
I think some folks just don't get the fact that Hillary is a strong progressive woman.
You may as well say my wife is just like me. But you'd be wrong there too. My wife is a strong independent woman with her own mind and opinions as is Hillary. You need to learn to give women there due.
Rilgin
(787 posts)You have an assumption that people are comparing Hillary and Bill and assuming that Hillary is Bill. Your claim is that she is not Bill.
Actually, most people totally agree. However, unlike your claim, most of us are comparing Hillary to Hillary. We know who Hillary is outside of Bill. Her current version of herself has nothing to do with Bill, it conflicts with Hillary's past.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Rilgin
(787 posts)I am not a HRC supporter. I responded to a poster who said Hillary is not Bill which is a constant meme around here, thinking that people do not know who HRC is on her own.
The poster was conflating specific criticism of HRC with a general plaint that we should not consider a wife as the same person as her husband. I can agree with that general statement, but pointed out that is not what people are doing. People on this site questioning HRC, generally do not seem to have doubts about HRC because they/we have doubts about Bill. We have doubts about Hillary because we have doubts about Hillary.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Rilgin
(787 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)That's right. She's horrible in her own right.
Blus4u
(608 posts)...was quickly hammered together following Bernie's declaring and the groundswell of support his message was receiving.
I believe this is why we see this populist slant from her today.
Just my opinion.
Peace
clarice
(5,504 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)N_E_1 for Tennis
(9,779 posts)Exactly on point. Again, just my opinion, but I feel she latched on to something she knows will resonate with the popular opinion, but does not really believe it. I could be wrong.
History on each candidate tells the story louder than the words that come out the mouths.
As said many many times, "the proof is in the pudding"!
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I was wondering if anyone else found it as obvious as I did.
rosesaylavee
(12,126 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)demwing
(16,916 posts)I was scanning the thread to see if someone dropped that tidbit. Should have known you would come through
sendero
(28,552 posts)... voting record and dismiss anything she says. Talk is cheap. Obama actually had many of us convinced he was a progressive. Talk is cheap.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Why isn't this obvious to everyone?
Do people just put on the blinders to her past positions, support, and to her funding by big money, because they are so enamored with her?
I don't visit right wing fundy sites, so my opinions about Hillary have all come from watching her in the news; and from here on DU and other liberal leaning web sites. I am not dissing her because of some wacky conspiracy theory. I supported her on the asinine Benghazi attacks, and any other stupid right wing attack that had no merit; but that didn't mean I liked her. I even thought she handled the Bill crisis with aplomb. But, I've seen her for who she really is since she got into the white house. She hasn't suddenly changed into someone who supports populist ideology; but she sure is doing a good job of pulling the wool over a lot of eyes.
Is she a strong woman who stands for women's rights? Yes, but a president has to be strong on more than one issue. I am a woman and I support women's rights, but this country is more than just women. She is for the TPP, as it stands now, regardless of her campaign speeches. that does not support women anywhere.
I suspect she will be our next President, unless she does something to lose to a Republican. And I will vote for her if necessary, but I'm not happy about it. We really need a progressive President this time around and Bernie is the only one telling the truth out there.
yuiyoshida
(41,861 posts)rbnyc
(17,045 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)tells us how she plans to fund the programs she is proposing.
What are the specifics of her plans.
Bernie tells his.
And when will Hillary give interviews to the press so that those of us in places like California can assess her ability to answer questions extemporaneously?
I'm sure she plans to come out of her cocoon. But when? And will she answer questions on the TPP, the XL pipeline, etc.?
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)She will open up when Mook tells her to...
In her NY speech she said that she would give large corporations an incentive to earn more money and perhaps help the little people...TYT
merrily
(45,251 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)have the foresight to see the consequences of a Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and wherever else we are these days. Enough is enough, we need leaders who don't have to apologize more than a decade later for something most of us ordinary people were able to predict back then.
Imagine eg if we had a Congress filled with people like Sanders and Byrd and all the other good Dems who DID have that foresight and good judgement but were let down by members of their own party?
All the lives that would have been saved, all the money that could have gone to make this a better country for everyone.
In ANY job, if you made a mistake, assuming it was a mistake, with one hundred times less consequences than eg, the Patriot Act, Iraq, you would be instantly fired and would be lucky if you ever worked again.
I'm sorry but to be asked to forget something as horrific as that war and all those Bush policies that got support making them possible, when a good opposition party would have ended them before they began, is simply not rational.
Millions of people's lives were affected by that decision. I don't understand why people are willing to overlook these things.
It's nothing personal, but we are the ones who decide the course this country takes in the future, and it is an awesome responsiblity towards this country, but more and more since the neocons set us on a course of forever war, towards the people of so many others. I know they used to have hope we could stop them, and we tried, but we did not have the support of many of our leaders.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)She'll screw the working class in her own unique way.
merrily
(45,251 posts)stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)All i did was tell you, that your op was on the front page of DU..
merrily
(45,251 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 17, 2015, 09:03 AM - Edit history (1)
Therefore, I had no ability to block you. However, that was not all you did.
Moreover, this is not how you appeal a block.
Besides, the group is for those who are supporting Bernie for President and you clearly are not supporting Bernie for President.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)And you bragged about the ban you gave me,it was revenge and you know it.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Got a link to that alleged post of mine allegedly bragging about blocking you, given I had no power to block you?
I'd ask "Revenge for what?" except I really don't want another false reply.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)and you can look it up. have a nice day and good luck with your precious.
one more thing how meany people have you ban from that group?
merrily
(45,251 posts)leftofcool
(19,460 posts)Most people are both. But whatever. She isn't Bill and we don't care if you support Bill or not.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)... we need to know.
clarice
(5,504 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)*
clarice
(5,504 posts)shedevil69taz
(512 posts)Which is why this active duty Soldier will never vote for her, all other reasons not withstanding.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And if we want to go back into Iraq, and Iran, and a few other middle eastern countries, we should definitely let the GOP win.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Talk about beating a dead horse with a dull stick!
BTW, in case you missed it, he lost the Presidential election. Being for the war in Iraq before he was against it didn't help him.
But, as you know, Hillary did not just vote for the war, she advocated for it.
Kerry did not do that. And, unlike Kerry, Hillary took her time before being against it, even though she says she realized it was a mistake. I don't think any of that is going to help her.
In "Hard Choices," Clinton, a former secretary of state and former U.S. senator who is exploring a 2016 presidential campaign, writes: "[M]any Senators came to wish they had voted against the resolution. I was one of them. As the war dragged on, with every letter I sent to a family in New York who had lost a son or daughter, a father or mother, my mistake become (sic) more painful."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/06/05/hillary-clinton-on-iraq-vote-i-still-got-it-wrong-plain-and-simple/
Yet, she said nothing for years.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)I don't support Bill Clinton, the damage he did to America's Working Class,
and his continued support for these NeoLiberal (read:Republican) Economic Policies.
I couldn't care less about anything that happens between consenting adults.
Aside from that, he's a pretty nice guy,
though I NEVER believed him when he said that he felt MY pain,
and then went to $1,000 dinners.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)Ugggh, what horrible policies he had, and what horrible policies she'll bring.
I just want want to puke. I guess we deserve who we elect. I wish and hope for Bernie ... but ...
haikugal
(6,476 posts)At least I can cast a vote for someone I truly support because they deserve my vote for their policies!
Clinton hasn't earned my support, at all!
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Showing that you have some kind of white guy privilege.
Sexist, because she's a woman and if you don't vote for her you hate all women.
It's her turn dammit, didn't you hear? She's the candidate of destiny and is due the office because she's a woman.
What other ones have I missed?
clarice
(5,504 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Assigning a well-fitted and comfortable oppression certainly seems to be the new vogue. And, as it deftly replaces rational thought, I understand the mental convenience...
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And truthfulness is purely optional for the attackers.
Efilroft Sul
(3,582 posts)
haven't alerted on every perceived anti-Hillary post in this thread, including the OP, for some bullshit TOS violation.
Must be too much work for the Hivemind.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Apparently they've all been scared away. The truth is there are still LOTS of Clinton supporters on DU.
Romeo.lima333
(1,127 posts)you "missed" that one
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)tonybgood
(218 posts)I seem to remember hearing the same rhetoric before about this and "destiny". If she's the nominee I will vote for her but my support is for Sanders.
Paka
(2,760 posts)She's a woman?
Cheese Sandwich
(9,086 posts)It would be so easy to take a stand on these major issues like the corporate trade deals. But she's so busy trying to protect the big banks and corporations she can't figure it out.
It makes the Democrats look weak and wishy washy.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I for one would have trouble believing her. Or at least being sure she would stick to it.
calimary
(81,498 posts)from anti-Hillary bashing already so I'm NOT inclined to return the "favor".
But I hope perhaps, IF she does wind up as the nominee, that you can still find a way to vote for her. What you'd be voting for in that case would be keeping the White House in Democratic hands. And keeping the next Supreme Court picks in Democratic hands. I certainly plan to return THAT favor if Bernie beats Hillary to the nomination.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)The Democratic nominee will have my vote. And my money and time.
calimary
(81,498 posts)still want a woman in that job. But it absolutely has to and needs to be a Dem.
Unlike the other side, we've got some pretty doggone great options. The other guys have at least a dozen Nothings. And Nothing but bad news if that side prevails!
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)disaster like some in the masses have likely not envisioned. It will be a significant turning point for the US well on the path to being a dystopia. Idiocracy will blossom.
Purrfessor
(1,188 posts)is the nominee, what will Bernie supporters do? So far I have gotten zero responses. It makes me wonder if a large contingent on DU will not register a vote for Hillary.
This, to me, is scary, particularly if enough Dems nationally skip the election. I don't even want to think about Republicans not only controlling Congress, but also the presidency and the power to nominate SC justices.
That alone should make people get out and vote even if they do not support Hillary.
frylock
(34,825 posts)Purrfessor
(1,188 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Jumpin Jack Flash
(242 posts)At this point, the corporatists are set in SCOTUS. Think about it. Who really favors the 1% vs the 99% in SCOTUS on key issues?
Purrfessor
(1,188 posts)with another Alito and another Thomas, then vote for a alternate party or don't vote. Personally, I think women's rights, civil rights and voting rights are far to valuable to risk losing based on the presumption that the Supreme Court will always side with corporations so it makes no difference who is appointed to the court.
madokie
(51,076 posts)I am a yellow dog democrat and I will Vote for our Nominee in the general election. I will not vote for Hillary in the primary though, sorry
Purrfessor
(1,188 posts)preference in the primary. Vote for the Democrat in the general. A Republican president with a Republican Congress and a conservative Supreme Court would be devastating to this country.
madokie
(51,076 posts)Purrfessor
(1,188 posts)to be a tightrope walk until Democrats can begin to take back some of the Republican state legislatures writing laws to undermine voting rights. And it could be another ten to fifteen years or more before that happens. Until then we have to at least be able to tread water.
merrily
(45,251 posts)no authority to know how they will vote; they have absolutely nothing to gain from making declarations about the general before the primary even begins; and loyalty oaths are repugnant?
My, that is scary.
Nonetheless, I have seen lots of supporters of Sanders post on DU that they will vote for the Democratic nominee, including on this thread. I wish they wouldn't do that, but plenty do. So, maybe you're forgetting, or something.
732 posts, registered in 2001. Amazing how many very, very infrequent posters have been motivated to surface to support Hillary in this primary.
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Purrfessor
(1,188 posts)since becoming a member in 2001? I'm sorry but my loyalty to the Democratic Party is not measured by the number of times I've posted to DU.
You accuse me of being an infrequent poster who only surfaced to support Hillary. Since you seem to know so much about me, tell me then, how many times per day do I check into DU? How many times in the last month or the last year? You might be surprised by the answer, and even reject it outright since it doesn't support your image of me.
And your assumption that I am a Hillary supporter is just that, an assumption.
And the reason I even ask the question is due to the level of what appears to me to be borderline hatred of Hillary Clinton. And then the question becomes, for those displaying such animosity, is it possible they think a Hillary presidency would be equal to or worse than a Republican presidency?
Frankly, I'll take any Democratic president over a Republican every time.
But since it apparently makes you feel better attacking my Democratic credentials because you assume I support Hillary, then go for it. But of one thing you can be certain, I will never abandon the Democratic Party because whichever candidate I support loses in the primary.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...over the SC Appointments,
and that is used to convince people to vote for Hillary even though they KNOW her Economic Package is to channel more money to the RICH and keep the WARS going?
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)The Clinton experience.
clarice
(5,504 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Let's just shut DU down...and run every post through you. You can decide what is appropriate
or what doesn't follow the party line. Enough with all of this OPINION stuff !!!!!!!
mylye2222
(2,992 posts)The Official Line. Support the Imposed Candidate ..... She is due to office, period....
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Response to clarice (Reply #28)
Romeo.lima333 This message was self-deleted by its author.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)in minority incarceration, NAFTA, welfare reform, telecommunications deregulation which invariably led to the Media conglomerates in the hands of RW billionaires, glass-steagall bank reform repeal.....the Clinton experience. Thanks Bill, now what's coming up with the next Clinton, I wonder, if she makes POTUS.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)And may the IPU, the FSM and Princess Celestia save us from Round Two of that shit.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)How come our standard of living is still going down? How come those jobs did not raise all boats? How come the corporations are still taking all the profit after offshoring so many businesses?
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Created in the service sector to replace the jobs that went south with that giant sucking sound created by NAFTA?
And the longest peacetime compared to today's state of permanent war?
The Clinton administration continued the decline of the middle class started under Reagan...and no president has done anything to stop it.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)So we can give her credit for the jobs during WJC's term, but not NAFTA, DOMA, DADT? Right upthread here a Hillarian explained how she is not her husband. Which is it? You can't even make a firm decision on that.
clarice
(5,504 posts)vi5
(13,305 posts)"President Obama is not in charge of Congress! They have to pass the laws! Don't blame him that a law either wasn't passed or was bad!!!"
A good law is somehow against all odds passed by Congress.
"Thank you President Obama!!!"
There's a certain stripe of Democrat (usually the party hard tow-the-hard liners) who can always manage to have it both ways, and when you point that out....well it's somehow your fault for wanting a pony or not understanding dice or some similar bullshit.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)Op wanted to use "the Clinton experience". Yes, Hillary is very much her own person.
Exilednight
(9,359 posts)She is her own woman, then she can't claim that achievement. If she's running on Bill's record, then she has to, also, take responsibility for his failures.
tjl148
(185 posts)First I'm told H and B are two different people and to not compare her to the Clinton Administration and now I'm told that we just use the "Clinton experience." Which is it? Or do we just use what is convenient at the time? And just what role did H have in the 25 million jobs and "the longest peacetime"?
kenfrequed
(7,865 posts)Whenever it is something good that Bill did then she gets a lot of credit for it, even if it is vague sort of mood-credit. If it was something foolish or short sighted he did then obviously Hillary is against it.
Personally I wish she would just speak specifically to what policies she is going to push. Vague sentiments like: having sympathy for students in the student loan crisis are meaningless.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)positive from her husband's term then that is fine and dandy.
The misogyny yellers are inconsistent hypocrites not once have I seen one blast someone making a complimentary connection to her husband.
Seems fans want to give her any credit but no responsibility for any downside. It is dishonest bullshit. Misogyny is just a cudgel here or it would apply coming and going plus it is a nonsense talking point anyway or they'd have no trouble defining the differences in policy positions and have some kind of explanation of why she'd be a founder of the DLC if she actually had this very different worldview.
If she is elected the buck will not even hover wantingly near her desk, the fans will tolerate credit only. No buck will be accepted.
merrily
(45,251 posts)merrily.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)Where I stand on issues isn't set on random or convenient.
merrily
(45,251 posts)TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)Divernan
(15,480 posts)Bill Clinton said that in electing him, the nation would "get two for the price of one", referring to the prominent role his wife would assume. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton
So while we stare endlessly at first couples, we rarely glimpse the strange vastness of their marriages: how a private conversation between two people, lying in the same bedroom where Abraham Lincoln slept, can influence an entire nation. We forget that our leaders, tossed in the maelstrom of the modern presidency, rely on their spouses as few of us ever need to, and that even first ladies who are not policy wonks still influence their husbands aspirations and judgments. Biographers can be complicit, often consigning wives to cameos, sometimes because the full story is just too hard to see.
The great exceptions to this rule are Bill and Hillary Clinton, who offered themselves to the nation as a package deal from the start. No one has ever doubted the influence of the Clinton marriage, but in his new book, Bill and Hillary, the historian William H. Chafe ups the ante, arguing that the entire Clinton presidency was powered by the psychodynamics of the Clinton union.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/30/books/review/scenes-from-a-marriage.html?_r=0
I think WJC ran all major decisions past HRC for her input and opinion; those are her legacy for good or for ill.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)If so - no problem. Probably will be voting for somebody else myself in my (utterly worthless late) primary. That's what they are for, to pick the best candidate.
In the general? Nothing would stop me voting for the best chance of keeping the Republicans out of power at any level for any office. I truly can't understand anyone who does not support Republicans rationally making any other choice.
clarice
(5,504 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)if she is the choice because like calimary said, SCOTUS choices are going to be extremely important in the upcoming 4 to 8 years. But damn, jaundiced choice, in my book.
LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)can be tolerant of EVERYTHING.....except a differing opinion. Speaks volumes.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)...
After a five-day bombardment, the combined American and French forces attacked and overwhelmed Cornwallis's fortified position on the night of October 14. The British commander was left with no choice but to surrender, which he did on October 19. News of the surrender reached England on November 25 sending shock waves through the British government. Although King George III wanted to continue the battle, the surrender forced Prime Minister Lord North to resign in March 1782. His replacement began the peace process that culminated in the signing of the Treaty of Paris in September 1783 granting independence to the American colonies.
...
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/yorktown.htm
Perhaps they just don't pick up on things all that fast. Told 'em other opinions were important a long time ago...
clarice
(5,504 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)That's fine, if not completely unoriginal in every way possible. There are plenty of people who believe exactly as you do on BU.
It's the "announcement" of said opinion in an OP.
Sort of like when people make a big production of announcing they are leaving DU when they could just leave.
But hey different strokes for different folks.
Maybe later tonight I'll do an OP on what I'm having for dinner.
I think maybe Taco Tuesday, which is also completely unoriginal.
clarice
(5,504 posts)peacebird
(14,195 posts)Disclaimer: I mean the words exactly as I wrote them, no rhyming lingo or slang intended.
clarice
(5,504 posts)peacebird
(14,195 posts)Response to peacebird (Reply #33)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)uponit7771
(90,364 posts)philosslayer
(3,076 posts)When she is the nominee? Are you not voting for her then? Casting your ballot for Ted Cruz? Or Scott Walker? Or whichever one of the Republicans is the last survivor of the clown car shake-out? Or will you just sit things out, which effectively helps the Republicans also?
clarice
(5,504 posts)philosslayer
(3,076 posts)My only point is that 99% of the people on this board proclaiming they will "never support Hillary" will crawl over broken glass to get to the polls and vote for her in November 2016 when they look at the alternative the other party is offering up.
clarice
(5,504 posts)movonne
(9,623 posts)the same...so I don't know why people here are fighting about this subject...
clarice
(5,504 posts)azmom
(5,208 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)Not because I can't support Hilary. But, because Bernie has better ideas, he expresses them very well, he has a record that matches what he says he wants to do, and because he has stood up for everyone of every demographic for his entire career.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)This is utter foolishness.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... Was your OP incomplete.
clarice
(5,504 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... For other democrats that I've seen here lately.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)>wipes tear from eye<
LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!
rufus dog
(8,419 posts)And I will only have to support her in the General if she is the nominee.
But I see no purpose in tearing down other candidates in our own party.
If she is our candidate I will be behind her 100 percent, because anyone from the other side is exponentially worse.
Point being, support your candidate, if he or she wins, great. If you are too pissed off if your candidate loses and can't vote for the nominee, ... Just deal with it, by yourself.
clarice
(5,504 posts)yardwork
(61,711 posts)Your posts sound naive and foolish. That's just my opinion. Go ahead and call me a fascist too.
RandiFan1290
(6,244 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)RandiFan1290
(6,244 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Weird the Clintons are able to stir that up. Still better than a Republican though, if she does get the nomination. It doesn't matter to me if she feels entitled because she has to win, whether she feels entitled or not, so if she gets the nomination, then the Democrats want her to be the one.
I don't get the trusting issue part. You can hold her feet to the fire. She is not a hawk over vote on one particular war at a particular time. I don't think she'd get us into more wars. A Republican will go out of their way to do it. She'd still avoid it.
clarice
(5,504 posts)passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)Hasn't worked that well with Obama, has it?
We can protest her actions, but that doesn't mean we can change her actions.
I can only hope you are right on that.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Obama has had more than his share of criticism.
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)I think most are consumate politicians, which means they may say something to get what they want, and then do something else, which is what they really wanted to do.
Not all POTUS have been consumate politicians. I'd say FDR, Carter, and Sanders (if he wins) are more honest and forthcoming about what they want and intend to do.
Will they be able to do anything they want? No...but they won't become something different because of money and power, or because they did not truly reveal who they were when campaigning.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Xyzse
(8,217 posts)I mean, if it is just the primaries, I can fully say that you have some valid points there, albeit I consider it generalizations that I don't fully understand where it is coming from.
I'm not ready for for "The Clinton Experience" again. I got so sick of the Iras and the Mandys , and the Lannys and the Susans that I almost got sick of politics.
I actually do not understand what you mean by the Clinton experience. Other than perhaps the scandals that plagued Bill Clinton's infidelities. If so, that should by no means besmirch Hillary, who in many ways could be considered the victim of such scandal. That she was able to go through it with grace, and strength is a testament to her character.
I don't like her. Last Democratic primaries, Obama and Clinton were my least favorite picks. I would still vote for either in a heartbeat during the General Elections. The issues I can't support her in, is her business relations, willingness to drill and so forth. Obama, I have the same issues with, not to mention his stance on K-12 Education which to me is abhorrent, however, colllege level wise though, I have to give him credit for that, and I appreciate his attempts to make it more affordable.
I feel like she thinks it's some sort of Manifest Destiny that entitles her to the White House.
With her losing the Primaries to Obama in 08, I don't really see her having that Manifest Destiny any more. Current method of campaigning is going by the situation on the ground, which shows her as Front Runner, as such, she can't really attack any one else, nor can she go in to real specifics, since Politics don't really work that way. As such, I don't see her making promises that can't be delivered, which can only be a good thing.
It also makes it a weakness since she can't go as far as the others. I think it is fine for now, but it is also why I am not supporting her during the primaries. I think either Sanders or O'Malley would be a better pick. They are also closer to me in regards to their positions.
I'm not ready for more of the obfuscation, hazy facts, double speak that plagued Bill's final term. Most importantly, I just can't trust her. Is she a hawk or dove ?...is she a liberal Democrat or a "Third Wayer" ? , is she pro-Palestine or pro-Israel ? She just seems "slippery" to me. I just can't shake the feeling that her agenda is not about advancing America, as much as it is advancing Clintonism.
I apologize, but why must Hillary suffer for Bill's mannerisms, actions and so forth? Bill is LOVED, when he comes in to talk up any issue that someone supports, and hated otherwise. That never really made much sense to me. I know that Bill is opportunistic, and so is Hillary, but that is the case to most politicians and merely par to the course. She is slippery to me, which is how I felt about Obama during the primaries. I thought they were close to the same at that time, but he got a pass since he didn't have as much of a voting record and he seemed nice.
---
Any how, I can completely understand not trusting her. I sure don't. So, I'll happily not support her during Primary Season, but if by chance, she actually wins the Primaries, you better believe I would support her. She is still miles and miles ahead of any current Republican alternative.
The only reason I am responding is because of the statement "I can't support Hillary..." since I just wanted to see if this is merely for the Primaries, or completely to the point that you would either vote for a 3rd party, the Republicans, or not vote at all during the General Elections if she ends up taking the Democratic nomination.
clarice
(5,504 posts)And of course, I would vote for whoever the candidate ends up being.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)CTyankee
(63,912 posts)our candidate, I will of course support her and work for her election (not a difficult thing to do in my city, the People's Republic of New Haven, CT!
I voted for her in our primary in 2008 because I really wanted to vote for a woman for president in my lifetime, but she would damn sure have to be a Democrat. And of course, I voted for Obama in the General.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,714 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)GeorgeGist
(25,323 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Yet. ;->
clarice
(5,504 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Who wants to go through that again?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)...ask the parents or families of the 1/2 MILLION Iraqi children that died directly from his economic sanctions.
Sanctions always hurt the little guy.
Madeleine Allbright (Bill's SOS at the time) said that the death of 500,000 Iraqi children were "worth it".
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)devoid of facts....the hate here is astounding...let's make shit up...it's fun!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Here are some "facts" for you:
Do you doubt the TRUTH of my post?
The Secretary of State at that time agrees with me.
The person "making shit up" in our dialog is not me.
merrily
(45,251 posts)economies of several nations. NAFTA, Telecommunications Act, DADT, DOMA.
Everything a President does does not bear its full fruit immediately. Clinton left lots of bad fruit.
BTW, the increases in taxes and fees by Reagan and Poppy helped with that "modest budget surplus" that Clinton left office with, as did ending "welfare as we know it."
Javaman
(62,534 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)They remind me.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)Lots of love for DU's left.
demmiblue
(36,893 posts)it has been quite obvious for some time.
yuiyoshida
(41,861 posts)Response to clarice (Original post)
Romeo.lima333 This message was self-deleted by its author.
still_one
(92,408 posts)ananda
(28,876 posts).. with an auro of inevitability surrounding her campaign.
But I still like her. (after Sanders of course)
I will support and vote for the nominee no matter which. To do otherwise, will be a vote for the GOP.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)Millions of people with far less knowledge than she had knew the run-up to the war was bullshit. She was either cynical enough or credulous enough to vote to send tens of thousands of people to their deaths and destroy the lives of God only knows how many more. Either one disqualifies her from being fit to serve as President of the United States.
I don't really give a rat's ass about what a "progressive woman" she may be. Her hands are covered in the same blood as every other American who voted for or promoted that goddamn disaster.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)if Hillary is the nominee I will vote for her over any repuke but right now I simply cannot support any Democrat who voted for IWR....it makes me sick
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/06/16/iraq-nation-destroyed-american-contempt
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)she is firmly in the camp of the "it's time for the Iraqis to stand up for themselves" hand washers.
Javaman
(62,534 posts)RandiFan1290
(6,244 posts)TheProgressive
(1,656 posts)It is easy to trust Senator Sanders. He is a statesperson on the side of and fighting for the people.
And it is important to note, republicans will *not* vote for presidential candidate Clinton. Period.
But, republicans have voted and will vote for Senator Sanders.
ileus
(15,396 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,485 posts)I think you posted about how you own a business and it would be detrimental. Am I wrong?
RandiFan1290
(6,244 posts)NEVER!
Kingofalldems
(38,485 posts)JI7
(89,271 posts)those less so lean more moderate and even more conservative.
Kingofalldems
(38,485 posts)Post #144 has a clue.
raindaddy
(1,370 posts)Four terms of "new" Democrats have been more than enough. i really think the window of opportunity has closed for another third way dem playing the roll of a populist.
pansypoo53219
(20,997 posts)babies. i will vote for whoever wins. shit. i had to vote for LIEBERFUCKENPUTZ!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Paka
(2,760 posts)and in a very nice polite way. You laid out the points and yes, I agree, so that makes me an impartial observerer. But I've lived long enough (74 years to be exact) to have used a few dictionaries that allow me to understand even an expanded definition of "basher."
Thank you for being both articulate and brave enough to state your opinion here.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Gamecock Lefty
(700 posts)I have no issues - none, zero, nyet - with any of her positions which is why I am supporting Hillary 100%.
That's ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!!
joanbarnes
(1,723 posts)Booster
(10,021 posts)if a weasel is running as the Dem candidate, I will cast my vote for it rather than the snake that is running as the Rep candidate. Especially if that snake lives in the Bush. I've voted many, many times for the lessor of two evils and will do it again if necessary.
longship
(40,416 posts)Humph!
And re: attack dog. Humph!
Note: at some large number of months before I have to decide, I have no vote at this time. I have some preferences, but will absolutely not announce them on these forums where too many are making it a pissing contest, or some perverse party purity test. Either is reprehensible. Neither helps what we are trying to do here.
This OP is an exemplar of not helping.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)I believe I only addressed the nature of what I believe is a far premature decision on a rather important issue. That is my opinion. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with gender.
BTW, I like your avatar and many of your posts, just don't agree with this OP.
My regards to you.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Please forgive me.
longship
(40,416 posts)No worries. I know how things go sometime.
Relax, and have a nice day. Have a hug.
clarice
(5,504 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)It took some effort to squeeze into the wire, and I understand that it will undergo some transformation during radio transmission. I hope it doesn't get too bent up on delivery. But I will bet that other DUers may make up for that by sending their own hugs for you.
My best.
clarice
(5,504 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)tularetom
(23,664 posts)IMO, if it were up to her she would not have voted for the Iraq war resolution nor the patriot act. She's smart enough to know that it was the wrong thing for the country. She only voted the way she did because her media gurus, image consultants, and focus group facilitators told her she needed to appear "tough" and "warlike" because (a) she's a woman and (b) the mood of the country at the time dictated that kind of approach. And right now, when millions are clamoring for her to take a position on the TPP, do you think she wants to be coy and evasive and refuse to commit? Hell no, she has an army of holdover advisors from the Clinton administration telling her it would be a political disaster to stick her neck out and state her honest opinion.
So see, it wasn't her fault, and anyway, she's sorry now, so don't you think she deserves another chance?
greenman3610
(3,947 posts)thanks for your thoughtfulness, but I've seen this movie
clarice
(5,504 posts)McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)Love how DU is turning the front runner into the underdog.
gateley
(62,683 posts)if she winds up being the nominee, I'll be first in line to cast my vote for her.
She's definitely not my ideal choice, but I'll vote for whatever Democrat tops the ticket.
Until then, I'll spread the word about Bernie.
You can support whomever you want -- don't let anyone one else try to turn you to their way of thinking.
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)...and incredibly premature. Why? Because (1) She might end up as Vice Presidential candidate with, oh, say Bernie, and then you WILL be voting for her if you vote for Bernie and (2) you don't know what Republican she'll be up against if she is the Presidential candidate. That GOP choice might be horrific and have a good chance of winningand you might, in terror and desperation, vote for her just to keep America out of his hands.
Yes, yes, I know you feel all certain now. But consider all those Republicans who probably said they were going to vote for McCain and felt so very certain about that...until he picked Palin and suddenly they couldn't vote for him. You never know what might make you change your mind, so best not to issue such statements, lest you find yourself eating your words.
We've a way to go before we know who is going to be running against whom in the primaries, and from there, who will be on the 2016 ballot. The smart thing to do at this still early stage of the game is to hold off on such assertions. Otherwise, threads like this might come back to bite you in the ass. You can certainly bet it will be resurrected if you are forced to change your mind and vote for her, however much you don't want to now or in the future.
clarice
(5,504 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)I will definitely vote for her is she is the nominee, though. Don't like what's coming out of the presidential candidate pipeline? Then put progressives into the pipeline by electing them to city council, school board, etc.
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)you want to support.
I could never support Mrs. Clinton and my voice does not count, I live in Canada.
I could never forgive her for her war mongering, her nastiness against Senator Obama during their campaign! No, there is no way I respect Mrs. Clinton. However, Bernie is not going to win so the lesser of two evils is again with you all.
Response to clarice (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
merrily
(45,251 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Mustellus
(328 posts).. after the 0.01% pay his massive ego to run again as a third party candidate.
The problem with being the Pope is that you can only vote for Jesus, and He's mostly not running.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Those people really make no sense.
Progressive dog
(6,918 posts)That speaks for itself. Hillary not only is not Bill, she is not even related by blood.
My opinion is that Hillary, like Bill, is a mainstream Democrat.
My opinion is that calling Hillary "slippery" and your "Manifest Destiny" reference are pretty much the same as "bashing."
Thanks for letting me voice my opinions.
clarice
(5,504 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)...you post a diatribe against one of our candidates and preemptively defend yourself by calling other's support for a Democrat 'attack dog mode.'
Well, alrighty then...
SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)that they would effectively vote Republican this year if Hillary gets the nomination. Count me out of that suicide pact.
clarice
(5,504 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,873 posts)Except I went ahead and hit the "ignore" button this time.
randys1
(16,286 posts)just work overtime to make sure someone else votes in their place.
Will be hard, because the GOP they dont seem to think is all that bad (must not, think about it) is working overtime to STOP as many of us as they can from voting.
clarice
(5,504 posts)Autumn
(45,120 posts)Bernie Sanders.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)But if you stay home on election day (and encourage others to do as well) will you take responsibility for Bush or Walker or Cruz winning the Presidency?
clarice
(5,504 posts)And please try to control your conclusions....they are jumping around everywhere.
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)And not jumping to any conclusions. I'm asking a question. Will you take responsibility if we end up with a GOP president in 2016? Simple yes or no answer.
d_legendary1
(2,586 posts)We're not even at the elections yet. No one is voting Republican or staying at home. Relax. We all know what's at stake
One of the 99
(2,280 posts)pnwmom
(108,995 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)Lisa D
(1,532 posts)I'm giving Hillary my full support in the primaries! And I'm thrilled that Dems have such a great slate of candidates.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)For those who believe that the only way to win this election is to capitulate to big money enjoy your existence without a soul.
Remember those who destroyed our economy!