The Orange Hat brigade didn't show up reliably, and when they did, some of them bigfooted all over the local landscape and managed to offend the locals.

I'm betting HD learned a lot from those errors.

I'm from MA, but I have to say, I found Dean the more appealing of the two candidates, even though my own Senator was in the mix. I did think Kerry was the stronger candidate, mainly because he had a broad and DEEP knowledge of foreign affairs--he was sharp as a tack on international issues and he'd demonstrated that facility time and time again.

Dean supporters?

I very much enjoyed the use of the word "precious" in that paragraph. It pushed the point home!

Real treasures.

But I keep remembering the rules that used to be....don't replay the primaries when they are over.

Of course, there are few rules now.

I don't do republiCON

I was just wondering ... did they come out to vote, or sit at home?

best I can figure

It's sending a message! (and oh yeah ... republicans win)

mybad

who don't have a freaking clue about the crisis of our Planet.

Yeah, they can sit home on their little hands and whine about "message" while the rest of us carry the burden.

They'll show 'em, they will!!!

"Hey! Why won't they (you) listen to me!!! "

How do you get that I hate Bernie supporters?

Most HRC supporters also like Sanders on a personal level and agree with his positions. On that quiz that was posted last week, I agreed with Sanders' positions slightly more than I agree with HRC's position. However the issue for me is winning in 2016 and keeping control of the SCOTUS. I have seen nothing to convince me that Sanders is a viable general election candidate and the 2016 could determine the direction of the SCOTUS for a generation.

I would love to see him win the nomination and the election, but I simply don't see it happening.

had there been a bit more weight on international affairs, the slight five point advantage that Sanders enjoyed would have disappeared.

I think Bernie has the right idea on a lot of things. But I think Hillary would do a better job on the international stage. I don't 'hate' Senator Sanders, though I think it would be an easier job for some of his "supporters" (I do question some of their motives--I think some are here to play the FUD card) , particularly the ones who do nothing but toss insults at those who don't profess absolute loyalty.

Dean was out by the time my state voted. I thought that whole scream thing was stupid.

Thats a part of politics i hate...pushing people out for no good reason.

I actually think we are all sick and tired of it this time..they are trying to make fun of Bernie's hair but every article I read people are not letting it stick that that makes him bad in any way.

And why nobody should be surprised he is one of Clinton's biggest supporters.

Last fall I attended a fundraiser where Dean spoke and he was impressive but far shorter than I expected.

It was what helped usher in the great blue wave of 2006 and set the stage for a great victory in 2008.

It was also opposed by the Rahm Emmanuel, James Carville, and the DLC of the party who criticized Dean for it.

"Their fans are just loud mouthed jerks."

(I don't know if that is what you meant, but ... it is what it is ... and more so on DU everyday.)

and a movement candidate has an advantage in a caucus (note Obama's win in '08).

Then New Hampshire is so close to Vermont that Bernie is seen as a local.


It is far to early to make any predictions, but it is possible that Sen. Sanders has a structural advantage in the first two contests.

We need to see the first couple of debates to see if he comes across the way his supporters (such as myself) believe that he will. Maybe Hillary will crush him with her knowledge of the issues. Maybe she will look contrived next to someone who speaks from the heart. We just don't know yet.

It is all speculation, and will be for the foreseeable future.

but I doubt the debates will sway many one way or the other ... people will hear what confirms their already held positions.

She is whip smart with great command of the issues.

they will have her whacked before either candidate opens their mouths.

Clinton is, if the 2008 campaign is any evidence, a skilled and poised debater who will likely perform well in the six showdowns to come. Her debate performances will then provide a storyline that isn't about her e-mail server, the Clinton Foundation or how much she or her husband were paid to give speeches. Clinton and her top aides abhor process stories, but a series of pieces about her ability and agility on the debate stage would be the sort of process-y story they would welcome with open arms.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/05/05/the-democratic-presidential-debates-are-great-news-for-hillary-clinton/

Foundation or how much they get paid to speak is a reason to not support her. Although they will be the material that the MSM tries to crucify her with in the genreral.

As to "skilled and poised" - I think that might be part of the problem. All too many people associate that with canned speeches and politics as usual. And thus not sincere. I am not saying that she is that but that again perception is the problem.

And when she answers questions without fully explaining her position that just furthers that idea.

I hope she can fix this because I may very well be voting for her in the general.

or will flip on an issue.

Bernie isn't like that.

I have no doubt about her intelligence, I question her instincts. The Iraq war resolution, Marriage Equality, Goldwater Girl, NAFTA... the list goes on and on. Yes she came around, but we need someone who's initial reaction is the right one.

It is a look at how she talks about the issues. She may even be better at rhetoric and phrasing but the problem is in specificity. She will talk about problems (especially economic) and vaguely talk about what she is for or against. People do like flowery language and aspirational metaphors so that could help her. But Bernie talks differently than most modern politicians and states direct solutions to the problems facing us without having to contend with donors and focus groups. It is almost a bit unfair because he is completely free to do so.

Which of these will work better in a debate is open. I think that some people actually are swayed by debates and a lot of people don't make up their minds until they hear one. Of course I do agree that a lot of people watch them the way they watch a football game and have already made up their minds who they support.

support Hillary has will switch during the debates, assuming Bernie does well.

Then if he can actually win the first two contests (which is a huge IF) then it is off to the races. I admit it is still a long shot at this point, but we are over 6 months away. That is more than a lifetime in political terms.

A young man who noticed my Bernie bumper/window sticker yelled "Bernie!" out his window when he drove by. I gave him a thumbs up. He seemed super excited to see a Bernie sticker. He had one on his car. A few minutes later at my grocery store I noticed another Bernie bumper sticker on a car with a 99% sticker. I am in a very red part of my state. I think Bernie is starting to pick up lots of speed.

the young man was a young white male and the vehicle with the stick was a older model, smallish, foreign car?

but I'm pretty certain of the young man.

My county is 90% white, 1.9% African American. So, chances are anyone in any vehicle will be Caucasian.

Bernie is extremely popular with young white males. That's all.

especially, Democratic elections.

"We" as in Democrats. Maybe Bernie will get them fired up. Can't see them getting too stoked over Hillary.

too bad because Bernie is as good on black issues as Hillary is. He just thinks that there are other issues. And he explains why.

Don't know what type of car he drives.

The attempt to peg all Sanders supporters as young, white males is foolish.

young, white males is equally as foolish ... and empirically, provably false.

supporters are.

And yes I know most of them are white. But I saw all ages and genders. I myself a 73 year old white women.

So far he has not been in a state that is not predominantly white so it is a little early to say that he has been rejected by poc. At least where I live he has a lot of supporters who are not white.

Exactly why are the black voters on DU so anti-Bernie?

I have seen posts by people who have identified themselves as PoC who are supporting Bernie. It's just that the detractors are quite persistent about peeing in our Cheerios.

that Bernie is not doing well with poc.

The people of color in my family are not looking at this election as a one issue event. They are seeing that the entire system is broke and that if we do not fight the corporations but give them more power they and in fact all of us will be back into the type of slavery that the poorer people in partner countries are already in.

I am white but I am the minority in my family. I am the head of a family with one Native American son-in-law, another son-in-law who is both Native American and black heritage, 5 grandchildren, and 11 great grandchildren. My sister also has thee black children and grandchildren. I know for sure that all are Bernie supporters so when I see someone say that Bernie is not doing well with poc I wonder why they are saying that.

I think that most poc realize just how bad the whole system is because they seem to be the ones in the front lines (police brutality) but I also think they know that it cannot be fixed by ignoring the corporate power that runs this country.

We had a get together this past weekend and we are all voting for Bernie.
18 Latino Votes
5 black votes

Besides, since I started this thread, wouldn't that make you the pissy disruptor?

Think about it, guy.

I'll leave you on this note:

"The civil rights movement also became a home for Sanders. He became leaders of an NAACP ally called the Congress of Racial Equality at a time when most civil rights activists were black. He was arrested while demonstrating for desegregated public schools in Chicago. (No big deal, says Sanders: “You can go outside and get arrested, too!” he jokes. “It’s not that hard if you put your mind to it.”) He once walked around Chicago putting up fliers protesting police brutality. After half an hour, he realized a police car was following him, taking down every paper he’d up, one by one. “Are these yours?” he remembers the officer telling him, holding up the stack of the fliers.

"In his second year at college, Sanders made national news. On a frigid Tuesday afternoon in January, 1962 the 20-year-old from Brooklyn stood on the steps of University of Chicago administration building and railed in the wind against the college’s housing segregation policy. “We feel it is an intolerable situation, when Negro and white students of the university cannot live together in university owned apartments,” the young bespectacled student told the few-dozen classmates gathered there. Then he led them into the building in protest, and camped the night outside the president’s office. It was Chicago’s first civil rights sit-in."

http://time.com/3896500/bernie-sanders-vermont-campaign-radical/

Post a link to a single post where I have "jabbed" at Bernie. Thanks.

Hell, this thread wasn't even about Bernie!

"I saw a post earlier, arguing supporter enthusiasm will win the primary for Bernie..."

Not about Bernie, my ass.

You know what you can do with your feigned indignation.

Everybody else saw this to be a question about what happened to the Dean supporters.

Perhaps, you have a deeper understanding than they, or me, about what I wrote.

I have, however, seen PoC DUers saying that his economic primacy message misses PoC, and explaining that it conflicts with our lived experience.

the corporations get any stronger all of us are going to be missing and in the long run they will pit is against each other. Nor will the corporations do anything to fix police brutality or discrimination.

The New Deal never reached the reservations either. Some of the reservations were given the right to own and operate their own casinos by the Clinton administration and that has helped. Ironically some of the best economic times for reservations in my area were during the prohibition years when they could put up a still and sell the liquor. That piece of trivia comes from some of the older ancestors of my family.

But I think that the posts that accuse Bernie of this are wrong. This man is Jewish - he knows about discrimination. And he knows about police states since his race has been victim of both. If anyone really CARES about these issues it is him because he has seen it happen to his own people. Like Hillary he has a very good record from the early days of the civil rights movement to today on the issues that interest poc.

We need to beware of letting the PTB separate poc into separate camps. Native Americans for years were taught to hate black people because after the civil war they were used to fight the Indian Wars in the west. Today the two groups have pretty much settled those old separations. But unfortunately I am now seeing the same kind of separation happening between NA and Hispanic peoples. And that goes for the feeling that every white person is against poc. My god I would have to hate my whole family. And they would have to hate me.

I think people need to wait until our politicians have time to address the issues before audiences that are the most likely to want to hear about the issues. And can address the issues with real questions. The social issues that effect poc are of interest in places like Iowa but they are not the issues that resonate there like they would in bigger cities. I hate to say that because they should but the nature of people is that they are more worried about their own problems than they are about anyone else's. And that might work if the whole system were not broken. Today we need to recognize that there are no separate issues. They are totally connected.

my usage of the term, "Missed", in referencing the economic primacy argument, is not referring to whether or not we have benefitted from economic policy. It is a slang term for "unconvinced", as in it is an ineffective argument, as it conflicts with PoC's live experience."

in my area when the casinos came in. First of all it proved beyond a doubt that Native Americans were very capable of running their own businesses and whites who wanted total control of the reservations had to back off. Teachers no longer assume that a child is going to fail because of their race. Colleges are seeing Native students finish with a degree not just start and then drop out because there is a goal now. The tribe created their own police force that is independent of the community police force although they still act as back up for each other. Businesses in town no longer expect every Native that walks through the door to be a thief. Many of the tribal members now live in the community and are active parts of it. No longer isolated to the rez.

Second employment for the people on the reservation got rid of the old stereo types. The workers go to work and do the jobs just like other people. And when the children see dad and mom go to work every work day and get a paycheck it instills a whole different outlook on life: pride in their achievements, goals for the future, a real interest in education and most important personal pride.

Third economic success allows the tribe to build up their own reservation. When I first moved close to the reservation there were 3-4 families living in one household. Today each family has their own home to live in. The tribe also used the profits from the casino to start other businesses such as a golf course, a hotel, a gas station that supplies both gas for the cars and also heating fuel, their own school, a nursing home and clinic and a community bus service. Everyone who wants a job has one. They again are proud of their reservation.

Fourth the reservation is now seen as part of the whole community. They are one of the primary hiring businesses in the community and they do not discriminate against any color. They donate to events in the community. They have one of the best headstart programs around. Everyone is welcome. They are accepted.

They have achieved success in the eyes of their neighbors who can no longer look down on them.

Now I realize that a reservation has more power to do these things because they are sovereign nations but it still could not have done this without economic success.

This is where I am coming from when I and my family see Bernie's economic plans as helpful to us.

that the casinos did not make a difference? I suspect it makes a difference. I am in NE MN and here it did.

And I personally do not believe the world will ever achieve the goal of ending racism. But it can be made better by the haters seeing success for people they look down on. As to being INSPITE of racism. Of course they were - the tribe rose above the stereotypes and proved they were wrong. At that point a whole lot of people stopped their racist ideas because their grounds for them was gone.

I don't know if this can change the type of segregation that is in Ferguson MO because racism has been used to "put them in their place", to isolate them. And that is not likely to change. The days of integrated housing is no where to be seen and did not work anyhow since only a small minority of the community was involved. IMO what we saw on the reservation after the Clinton administration approved the loan for the casinos was the people creating their own community and making it better where they were at. They could not have done that without economic success.

You know I have actually lost tract of what we are talking about. IMO communities like Ferguson MO need to vote the city government out NOW and start working on making their own city the place they want to live in. And that includes jobs for their youth. Create hope.

and I didn't say casinos don't make an economic difference ... I said they have little to no effect on the racism Native Americans experience ... they just have more money, while they experience it.

I do not know which ones have that deal but they definitely do not work. Doing it yourself seems to be the key.

though they seem to hire white guys out of Vegas to head them, with Tribal Members filling the mid to lower management ranks and a good portion of the service jobs.

to run it themselves and toss the Vegas bosses out. The owners of our casino here sent their workers to Vegas to learn what they need to do. It was a hit and miss learning experience but it has worked.

do something about it and join us! All are welcome aboard Bernie's pander free, honestly populist, best-shot-at-making-this-a-fair-and-just-country-for-all love train!

As did a young black woman, and an older white man with a gray ponytail. Charlottesville, Va

Support is growing.

His enthusiasm in the Iowa primary, to selectively edit a making him appear unsound

What's more, I will work to get the Democratic nominee elected ... whomever, that might be.

And I would hope all of DU will do likewise.

That doesn't mean I would support who he supports for the Democratic Party's primary.

The Democratic Party at this point in time is a democracy. I voted for Kerry in 2004 but like in 2000. . .

I do not trust the GOP at all.

I think right wing dems are more likely to defect to voting republican if Bernie wins.

So there was almost unanimous unity behind Kerry.

(Yes there were some blow outs, but it was a stressful time.)

In my life, my favorites seldom do make it past the primaries. That's life. I'm a grownup.

In the end I vote for the Democrat on the ballot, and compared to the Republican on the ballot, I have never EVER thought the Dem was "the lesser of two evils."

I got over Howard Dean losing -- I have not gotten over the trashing of JohnKerry, and I have not gotten over Dubya becoming POTUS and trashing the country.

I live in CT.

I voted for Kerry in the GE, although I was not a huge Kerry fan.

We were very disappointed when he was not selected as the nominee. We did, however, not "vote for" Kerry as much as we "voted against" Bush. Even though our candidate was not victorious and the democratic presidential nominee, the thought of 4 more years of Bush was horrific, which was pretty much the case.

At this time in 2008, no one thought Obama could be nominated let alone elected. It is possible that Sanders can win both the primary & election.

I was wonder whether the enthusiastic Dean supporters voted Kerry, or stayed home.

Hillary was polling in the high 30s/low 40s, and Obama was consistently polling in the 20s That was only a 15-20 point gap (and it closed to 10% in some polls that included Al Gore) -- which certainly looked daunting, but nothing like the almost-40-point gap in current polls.

I am still very much in to Kerry.

I think he was the last Presidential candidate I was very excited about.

If O'Malley wins, I'd probably be just about as enthusiastic.

Howard Dean is still the man.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm the Democracy for America host:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1105

Democrats lost a close election (less than 3 million votes and Bush won 286 electoral votes to Kerry's 251.

It is worth reading "The Stolen Presidential Elections" by Michael Parenti.

And Howard Dean was believe it or not actually the wrong figure for the moment. The entirety of his politics were anti-Bush. Who even remembers any of his politics?

my enthusiasm isn't for sale although if you are rich or poor its nice to have money .

After he dropped out I voted for Kerry in the general election. Though I didn't feel a strong connection with him. I voted for Kerry to try and stop Bush from winning a second term.

Now I'm leaning toward Bernie Sanders. When I vote in the primary I vote for who I'd most like to be President. Not for who I think is most likely to win the presidency. I would vote for any democrat who wins the nomination.

As a side note, I credit Dean and his supporters for helping develop the fifty state strategy, grassroots organizing strategy and internet strategy that helped elect Barack Obama to the presidency twice. I do not not know if that coalition still exists.

Some of the folks who have posted very little but scathing criticism of Barack Obama here at DU for years, and now seem to post next to nothing but scathing criticism of Hillary Clinton here every day, I don't know if they are part of or ever were part that coalition, or if that coalition has fractured. I also don't know if I'd believe their denials to the contrary, unless it was a pretty good explanation.

Posting next to nothing but attacks against other democrats just seems to me like very thin and weak demonstration of support for democratic party principles. Which, to me, allows for different kinds of candidates and does not place all of the emphasis on the presidency.

This: