severe issues with her on.

Her foreign policy history is simple not related to this tragedy and politicizing it in this way, just sucks.

IMO, foreign policy and
domestic policies are intertwined.
The values we hold and project
into international affairs are
who we are as a nation.

When Hillary states we need
to face "hard truths"
what do you believe the scope
of that discussion includes?

I said so yesterday to HRC supporters.

Yes, there is overlap on foreign and domestic policy in plenty of areas. Racism is homegrown. Our gun culture is homegrown, and Iraq and Libya have nothing to do with the murders in Charleston.

Where do you see the connection?

Those are pervasive elements
in the human condition.
A blight on our humanity
which one day will hopefully
be long forgotten.

Ukraine is a hotbed of
"racism, violence, and division"
What is Hillary's stance of that region?

THE ONLY CONNECTION that matters
is the CORE VALUES of Hillary.

She looks gleeful about the murder of Gaddafi!?!
She supported arming Syrian rebels (ISIS).
She supports Israel's racist oppression
of the Palestinian people.

Hard truths indeed

Some of us aren't as enlightened as you, but wouldn't it would be more mature to express sadness for our inadequacies, not mirth?

And you never did answer my questions about the giant enema referred to in your sig. E.g. Would you want to administer said torrential enema yourself?

It's so hard to keep track of the many Manny characters that you play at DU.



Sid

You pro-war, pro-mayhem poster, you...

does that even mean??

As opposed to "Hate Hillary for Being Hillary Manny" or "Hate Hillary for Associating with Barack Obama Manny"

leading the U.S./NATO attack on Libya with the massacre at Emanuel AME, is bullshit. That attack was as homegrown as it gets.

I am deeply opposed to her candidacy for President, but I applaud her comments yesterday about the tragedy in Charleston, and have no reason to believe she isn't sincere about this.

Why do you believe that
"race, violence, guns and division"
only apply to one incident,
or only domestic tragedy?

But the day is early.

I don't buy the argument that such questions lead back to tragedies like we are facing in SC. Rather I think that action is more easily explained by racism and hatred of black people; which seems to be on the rise right now.

Bryant

But I don't think this guy went into a mosque. Let me check.

Nope it's the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church. So I think racism against blacks is more likely the culprit, compared to hatred of Muslims and foreigners.

Unless you believe that African Americans are foreigners? I hope that's not what you believe.

Bryant

Hillary cannot promote sending guns
into failed states, endorsing violence
and exacerbating divisions on the
world stage... and lament them at home.

"hard truths" are hard to accept.

Follow Hillary's rejoinder
and lets face the "hard truths"
about her foreign policy stances.

the bullet out of you, he wants to talk about how your cholesterol levels are too high. Of course it's important that we deal with the problems with our foreign policy, but this isn't the week for that. Those 9 dead in South Carolina weren't killed because of our foreign policy; and it's disrespectful to their deaths to hone in on that.

Bryant

ignore that. If I disagree with something, it's generally because I do care. I also care about being intellectually honest and intellectually consistent.

Everything she decries...
race, violence, guns and division
are embedded in our foreign policy.

As SoS, what did she do to bring
peace, internationally?

non-existent???

Don't lecture me or anyone
regarding YOUR morality
or what you find acceptable.

BTW, I wear white after... Labor Day!!!!
And I wear shoes with no socks occasionally!
<gasp> it's true!

Sid

That any PoC is a foreigner.

Religion, in terms of attacking Muslims, is just an added excuse. They only want people who are white AND Christian to be considered citizens, not white OR Christian.

The OP makes a valid point. Our foreign interventions are directly related to our domestic issues.

unless we are using the term directly in different ways.

Bryant

Yes, troubles of the world, the actions of every nation, are "All CLINTON'S FAULT." I often wonder if people writing this stuff have mommy-issues

Too much BS first thing in the morning.

that have resulted in all the things
she is supposedly concerned about?

A foreign policy that sows the discontent
and violence she supposedly abhors
underscores the hypocrisy of concern
here at home.


As to mommy issues...

Mommy Issues: it appears to me that there is more going on here than Clinton's beliefs.

Martin O'Malley just spoke about the environment, and everyone applauded him. Yet, he may well be all talk. He is taken at face value. O'Malley's state just had a horrific violent episode, due in part to his law enforcement policies...yet no one is blaming him or calling him a big-fat-liar.

Sanders has said a bunch of lovely stuff, but no specifics. And he really has done nothing while in the Senate to make the changes he is now touting. And yet, people applaud and do not demand specifics like they do Clinton.

Clinton is held to a different standard. Everything she says is discounted or twisted. Everything she has ever done is given the worst possible interpretation. When she speaks--people want specifics. When she gives specifics, they are not strong enough.

There is something more going on here. If she were as powerful, knowing, seeing as everyone here claims, she would be Godlike. If she were as evil as everyone her claims, she would be Devil Like.

Something is off, and I truly believe it has to do in part with sexism. I also think that the decades of abuse she received by Republicans permeated our consciousness and some people actually believe the lies.

There is nothing she can say or do that would not be met by people on DU with wrath and hatred and distortion.

We are a messed up bunch.

Clinton has spent her life as a champion for women and children. She is the best qualified to be President. O'Malley and Sanders are mediocre.

Why do Hillary supporters insist
on framing every criticism or dissent
as an "ISM"... or as a personal flaw.

Ascribing a pathology as motivation
for any critique of Hillary appears
worse than desperate... its slanderous

"No one here posts hateful, over the top posts about Hillary. It's just issues"

Make a note in your little ledger
who's a meanie and who's a fawner
amongst your cult of personality.

It's a "hard truth" that some
people object to having their
hypocrisy revealed in the light of day

So what "cult" does the pot/kettle belong to

why is it that we can't discuss where she's been whats she's done in the context of her running for the highest office in our courntry? I don't see where this is over the top nor do I see it as hateful. Fill me in please

We have to base our support on a persons strengths and weeknesses, pointing out either is neither hateful or out of line. People lie, people distort, yes the person as this subject has done both of those so why can't we discuss that?

I always get a chuckle from your posts, you know that. Our votes in the general won't amount to much I'm afraid.
All we can do is be internet warriors.

You are trying to make it about
ONE incident when Hillary is
CLEARLY speaking more broadly

She may engage you.. Not me.

This is discussion of blatant hypocrisy
born of political expediency.

Hillary is seeking to score cheap
political points WITHOUT actually
providing any details on what
"hard truths" actually means.

What are these "hard truths"?
What would she do about these "hard truths"?

HOW WILL HILLARY END ISSUES OF
RACE, GUNS, VIOLENCE AND DIVISION?

Is she going to wave a magic wand?
Will we all hold hands and sing kumbaya?

Hard truths demand SERIOUS solutions!
What is Hillary's solution?

rather than raising it in the context of the SC church shootings, which, obviously, ruffles feathers and understandably so. But again, I get that point you were trying to make.

As such, it is worthy of scrutiny.

We are vetting the next
leader of the "free world".

Do you see the IRONY
of Hillary calling for facing "hard truths"
and people complaining about looking at
Hillary's own "hard truths"?

by trying to connect HRC's vote on the IWR and Libya policy to an awful event that isn't remotely connected to either.

I don't know that I'd characterize it as hateful, but I think it's clearly both inappropriate and over the top.

will indeed push back on this shit.

Because those all seem to be elements
our national policy in the middle east.

to domestic concerns and events that are only tangentially connected at best to foreign policy. Sure people can blather on to their heart's content about how everything is connected and in the the large philosophical picture that may be true, but some things are less connected than others. And our foreign policy re Iraq and Libya is just not connected to our homegrown racism and our homegrown gun culture which is what the Charleston massacre was rooted in.

It's unclear what she intended
in her remark..."hard truths"

What EXACTLY are these "hard truths"
Why didn't Hillary state EXPLICITLY
the "hard truths", rather than vague platitudes?

and it's getting harder and harder to tell them apart.

Sid

I've even seen OPs with the exact same titles.

Posted by a liberal over here ... and a right winger over there.

Sid

... I'm not spoon feeding you.

if I hate her?

but I've never seen you take cheap shots at her, like the one presented in the OP.

I don't agree with your position, but I would never doubt your honesty or integrity. You say what you mean. I accept that at face value.

There's a difference between disagreeing, even strongly, with a candidate, and trying to tear her down with bullshit.

Sid

your OP is.

I'll vote for her in the general election but I don't expect her to make it that far. No amount of telling me she is the presumptive candidate makes that true. If by some stroke she does make it I'll support her.

For sure. I think I need more coffee, too much BS so early on the west coast.

You do have remedies
to avoid seeing opinions
which you find unflattering

I would hate to have the reasonable people leave just to avoid... (edited).

Just ignore a thread here or there
ignore the few members you hate,
and you can still enjoy the community.

because...

Actually, Hillary is using
the tragedy to push her agenda!

What were her solutions to;
race, guns, violence, and division?\
Oh right...NOTHING

Do you know what EXACTLY
these so called "hard truths" involve?
Hillary offered no clue as to what they are.
Just vague platitudes.

Maybe she could use those solutions
to end the pointless, illegal wars
she supports in the middle east?

You asked about torture, I gave you links.
You're making everything personal.
"Herp-a-derp, Imma gonna say some stupid bullshit, then double down and play dumb when called out on it. Ahh-yup."
Quit being obtuse and playing dumb. It's fucking childish, and your slip is showing.

Does it turn you on?
wink, wink, wanna see more?

These OPs might as well be ...

Hillary bad
Hillary bad
Hillary bad

But that makes for a less interesting OP.

Sid

Again, I'm flattered you have
invest so much attention and
applied yourself so thoughtfully
in this discussion.

Your passive aggressive comments
about "populists" aside,
you seem genuinely concerned about
how Hillary's apparent hypocrisy is viewed
by other Democrats.

Right or wrong, stand by your candidate!

To bad the same "reformers" have now decided to use Bernie in their "reform" agenda of dividing DU while bashing democrats and the party as a whole.

and for the CORPORATE GUN INDUSTRY to be immune from civil liability. Unlike your ridiculous screed, that directly relates to the deaths in Charleston. Yet for some reason, people are more than willing to sanction votes for domestic war that kills millions of Americans, while claiming to be anti-war abroad.

I'm sorry you don't hold those people in Charleston, the children in Sandyhook, and the other 32,000 Americans killed every years from guns in as high esteem as you do a mass murder like Qaddafi.

The Israeli apartheid state, really? You're going to go there and not pretend Sanders isn't just as bad if not worse on that issue? Or is it that in reality you really don't care about any of that, but that your only concern is to attack Democrats?

Your post is transparent, unprincipled bullshit.

People will take Clinton seriously. You, on the other hand, will not be.

Do NOT use this tragedy to make political attacks. That is disgraceful behavior and it demeans us all.

There is NO PERSONAL ATTACK.

Hillary advocates policies which
result in exactly the sort of violence
and tragedy which she is decrying.

In what universe can you laugh at a murder
and then later denounce other murders?

How can anyone rally against guns
while supporting the exportation
of billions of dollars in weapons
to failed states or to support
"regime change"

In what community do people denounce
"division" while supporting apartheid,
and sectarian war in the middle east?

It's schizophrenic!

But I suppose it would be in a universe where states reserve to themselves a monopoly on violence. Violence between individuals generally constitutes criminal behavior, but violence between states (war) or violence between the state and people (criminality) is regulated by laws domestic and international. Though I suppose one oughtn't laugh when violence is deemed necessary, and I think it would be hyperbole on your part to insist that such were the case for Hillary.

I don't much care for Hillary's politics (at least, those she exhibits vs. those to which she pays lip service) but you did ask. And the fact that you can make an avowed "hater" stand up for Hillary should be a pretty good clue for you that you should settle down and maybe contemplate whether you're heading into becoming an extremist. Extremism is never good, be it on the left or the right. They meet in the middle at Crazytown.

you are the one exploiting this tragedy and everything about the op and the ensuing comments you've posted lead me to the conclusion that you don't give a fuck about this tragedy and those who were so horrifically murdered.

Maybe you don't need to take
the interweb so seriously?

Hillary is scoring cheap political points
by making vague comments about
race, guns, violence, and division...
yet offering NO SOLUTIONS.

We know there are problems.
These issues of race, guns and violence
go back to the country's founding,
ie. slavery and native American genocide.

Yet Hillary JUST REALIZED this
because of one incident


Sorry, it looks like she is
"working the crowd" on this one.

you are the one exploiting this tragedy and everything about the op and the ensuing comments you've posted lead me to the conclusion that you don't give a fuck about this tragedy and those who were so horrifically murdered.

Sid

it often and has come back to haunt us. Obama's callous reference to drones when it's known they kill many innocents along with what are now called "the bad guys" and Hillary's laughing at the brutal killing of Ghadaffi sets a bad example for diplomacy, tolerance and compassion that we used to think Americans stood for.

For instance, Lindsey Graham's Hate Speech and Mock Shooting of fellow Senator & Presidential Candidate Bernie Sanders was shown on MSNBC with a female news correspondent skeet shooting with him. As he shoots the clay pigeon he's named "Bernie," he says you have to learn to "Hate the Pigeon to kill it."

Our actions in the ME and elsewhere don't reflect well on our country and those who are in power. Hate Speech, Racism and Violence...it applies to what we are doing with drone strikes and overthrowing countries causing death, destruction, dislocation and loss of jobs, businesses, homes and family to those we and our allies invade--under the guise of bringing "Freedom and Democracy."

State a soft opinion as a hard truth? Do you think it convinces anybody?

Pretend you're so dense, that you misinterpret comments? Hillaryous! Well, if rhetoric is all you've got, keep up the work.

Anything to say about Hillary's
lack of solutions for this problem?

Or is it enough to say
we need to face "hard truths"

What EXACTLY are these "hard thruths"

Has Hillary explained what the "truth" is yet?
If not, Hillary is the rhetorician!

You're criticizing Hillary for spouting empty rhetoric. How, with empty rhetoric.

You got more rhetoric than Carter has Little Liver Pills!

And got nothing better to do than talk with you.

I say that as a Bernie supporter- this is out of line and disrespectful to those killed. Not the time for this. I for one appreciated Hillary Clinton's comments on this horrible attack. Don't politicize this.

This has NOTHING to do with
those innocent lives taken
by a deranged individual.

It is about HILLARY'S rhetoric.
She says there are "hard truths"

WHAT ARE THESE HARD TRUTHS?

Hillary laments issues of race, guns,
violence and division yet her own
polices and actions have contributed
to EXACTLY those problems.

The efforts to absolve Hillary
of failed polices which perpetuate
human misery from the empty rhetoric
in her statement are transparent.

Hillary needs to explain herself
and reconcile this incongruity.

and are even embarrassing other Sanders' supporters.

You also have the entire analysis backwards. It's violence at home that perpetuates violence abroad. You're deliberately detracting from the issues of racism and gun violence, as well as the lives of the victims, because clearly they don't mean as much to you as your hatred for Clinton and Obama. Those people's lives count. Your pettiness does not.

Let's juxtapose this OP with your enthusiasm for Carly Fiorina's "leadership experience." http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026437189

Jesus.

Some people will excuse Hillary's
failed policies and vague statements
which happen to be contradictory.

The refuse to accept that promoting violence
in other countries is just as horrific as the
violence we experience here at home.

Why won't Hillary offer any solutions?
How will Hillary end the national disgraces
and tragedies like Ferguson, Baltimore, etc?

Surely she has a plan and policies
that will end these senseless horrors?

I suggest you go do some reading. In the meantime thread in trash where it belongs.