hate are the first to understand that hating is not the right answer.

There is real power here.

"If thy brother offends thee, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him." Forgiveness absent repentance does not change things. Christ was not just about forgiveness. When someone wrongs you, you have to let them know their behavior is hurtful. If they them recognize that they are being hurtful and work to change their behavior, then you forgive them. If they refuse to change, or refuse to accept that their behavior is hurtful, then there is no need for you to forgive. There is no need for hatred, but without repentance, there can be no true forgiveness, for the sinner cannot see the sin for which forgiveness is given. Refusal to allow pain to turn into hatred is beautiful - but should not be confused with true forgiveness.

This is the whole concept behind the Catholic ritual of 'Last Rites' and the 'Act of Perfect Contrition' - if you do not recognize the 'sins' you have committed and repent of them, you cannot be forgiven. While, I personally, am not Catholic and do not subscribe to their dogma, there seems to be a lot of common sense in many of their rituals. (Rituals that have, in many instances, lost their real meaning and have become empty ritual with no understanding of the theology behind them.)

Gerald Ford for forgiving Nixon. As we walked out she refused to shake hands with the preacher and when we were outside she said "Mom why didn't we walk out on him? Nixon never said he was sorry. "

In this case holding onto their anger against this kid is not going to change anything. The forgiveness is their closure. They are not going to continue to let him hold power over their lives. I think that is the reason that the courts allow them to speak directly to the killer. And the reason they show forgiveness.

Also this is not the Catholic Church. Their theology may be very different.

of Jesus forgiving people who never asked to be forgiven, even those who killed him. The scripture you quote says when someone asks for forgiveness they must be forgiven. It doesn't say they must ask before they can be forgiven.

but I was thinking that those good people might forgive him and maybe push to not have him executed, despite the evilness of his act.

The grief and loss is unimaginable, yet to be so grounded in their compassion is truly admirable.

That is the best of humanity, right there.

(thanks nolabear for that sig line. I looked it up and am impressed by the author.)

claim to despise. And the perpetrator has succeeded in spreading the hate.

These are very wise people Far more evolved as human beings than most of us.

What a wonderful demonstration of what their faith means to them.

The pain they are in cannot be imagined by anyone who has not suffered as they are right now.

to all of them.

I think that's right. She said she was striving to reach a place of forgiveness. To have that as the ideal is to be a better human. I wish them that peace.

I do not hate anyone, but I don't think I'm evolved enough to forgive this monster.

They walk in the light.

Last edited Fri Jun 19, 2015, 09:00 PM - Edit history (1)

Hate is an addiction. At first it gives a great high, but soon a stronger high is needed. The addict either acts on it as Roof did or the addiction takes over and controls his life. The hatred becomes all that matters and eventually destroys him one way or other. Roof is pitiful. Whatever happens, it's very doubtful he'll ever heal. He was hooked too early and he's just a shell now.

The people of Mother Emanuel are immune and free. Their faith protected them, but the protection is available to all of us, regardless if we're atheists, agnostics or people of faith. We just refuse to hate any human beings. Hate what they do, yes and try to stop it when we can, but hate them? No. Hate does more damage to ourselves than we could possibly do to them.

Forgiveness on the other hand, I'm afraid I'm not that evolved.

Everyone handles and expresses grief and tragedy in their own way. Neither is better than the other, especially this close to such an event.

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Let's get the negativity out of race relations. Only we white people can do that.

Sorry, African-Americans, this is our problem. You can help us, but we have to do this.

We should have marches of white people to end racial hatred and discrimination. That would perhaps have a real chance of changing the idea that some people have that there is some sort of conflict or war between races.

Does anyone else share my idea?

I was also impressed with the msnbc reporter who burst into tears as he described them all singing together. Sometimes llove does indeed have a loud voice.

It's an awesome idea - that's been around for eons and expressed here often.
One that you never read before I guess. Whoops.

Along with every AA on the board and all of HoF, etc.

You know the one where you've not been "appealing in a nice enough way" so you're allies threaten to "drop their support". Wow- it's not just women who've heard THAT shit before.

How galling is the assumption that most POC have not said this before? Mind blowing that it wouldn't occur to them that this is a common concept. Wow.

It was also suggested POV should "woo" Sanders, lol, if he is to listen to those who feel excluded. Must be new to social justice discussions, because they're winning in the bingo.

Same one told me a while back that it was time for black folks to do something for white women, after all they have done for us, ya know, all that charity they gave us, said we were ungrateful.. Long lecture about that issue.

Good call reminding people that they repurposed the ideas of others when it felt convienient.

Going to fix everything. I guess we should be grateful for this revelation, but not giving them any credit for not hearing it for the first fifty times.
Had to come out of their own mouths to be credible, I'm guessing.

Story of my life. My husband does the same thing. All ideas are his even if I just gave him the plan in writing, undersigned by me.

with love. They get the consequence of their choice(s). Tired of this love your oppressor garbage.

I think hating is bad for a person. Mind you, I believe in justice.

Justice is cleaning out the wound and dealing with the problem - Hatred isn't.

Bryant

I'm just that while it is admirable that the victims families and concerned have forgiveness in their hearts, I don't. Nor love for that animal. He's like a rabid dog,....you know what must be done with a dog like that...right? No hate, just a little compassion for that animal for what has to be done. I hope the state does it. Which I doubt. He'll live on appeal for at least the next 10 years or get out of dying completely, on some technicality, I bet.

I wouldn't grant that brain-addled little terrorist any forgiveness, particularly this soon.

I can't even say what I think of that little shit-stain, let alone what I think of what should be done to him.

It's amazing that they can speak of forgiveness. That is truly awe-inspiring. I admire them.

Granted, I'm not an immediate victim here, but I think it's a perfectly valid choice to refuse to forgive, and demand harsh punishment for that racist piece of subhuman filth.

I've tried to stay out of these threads on DU, and deal with this in my own way (and a way good for my family). I've tried to listen, more than talk. I've been listening to people from SC. I've tried listening to people here at DU. I've also been listening to my family. Still, I had this raging fire of anger and hate where the bottom of my heart used to be.

Until today. When the family members spoke at the hearing, I listened. Somehow, I heard them.

"Every fiber of my body hurts...but I forgive you"
"We forgive you"
"I admit I am angry....but Love will win out".
"God can forgive you"
"We have no room for hate"
"We are a family that Love built"
"I forgive you, God can forgive you"

I'm not a religious person. I'm not quite sure what I am, but I feel in my heart that these folks are sincere. They believe in love and forgiveness, and they believe in God.

The red hot rage and anger in my heart has turned into determination. Determined to do more than I do now to help stop racism, to love my family and neighbors. To be 1/2 a person the family of the victims are.

Maybe this makes a bit of sense.

I feel the same Sissyk.

Thank you!

It's the only way. I truly believe that, even though I too am a work in progress.

I also understand those that can't or won't let go of the anger, Just glad for my son, and his family, that I could.

Take care!

I think it's fine to hate some people.

A young man who had killed a woman in a wreck. He was drunk and going the wrong way on a 4-lane road. He had no memory of it and knew when he was released from the hospital he would go to jail. He was remorseful, but guilty nonetheless. Her parents came to the hospital to see him and forgave him. It was powerful. I am not sure I could do the same. It was over 30 years ago but the memory is still vivid.

While others defile and insult the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Ain't about to forgive...not today...not tomorrow...not ever.

You don't get to kill mine...no, no, no!

I think if it was me who was killed, I wouldn't want my loved ones to suffer with feelings of rage for very long. I absolutely agree that he should pay for the crime but to forgive in the sense that not to do so can eat one up, and to say "Not one more" also seems to me to be the survivors' best chance for some kind of peace. But that's me.

it is the hardest thing to do. I think forgiving, especially when in as much pain as they are right now, has to be a very difficult thing to do. I don't know how they did it. They are better people than I could ever be. That is really hard to do.

It's for the victims, not the killer.

It takes a very strong person to forgive in this case.