Agreed, a symbol of hate, death and destruction

i cant help that

according to the USA Today Poll and a little over 1 out 4 African Americans in South Carolina according the Washington Post published poll are for racism, death and concentration camps!?

not a symbol of hatred. Heck, I bet more than half the folks from Mississippi still think lynchings were warranted.

are still very much alive.

he felt the whole American Nation was to blame and that the preeminent solution was healing the nation's wounds.

Racial views, both conscious and subconscious, are inextricably woven into the rationalization that it's "just heritage."

it shouldn't be put in a museum as has been suggested by many. Those who see hate when they see it flying will be at peace and those who want to visit their 'heritage' can do so by going to the museum.

in your own words. If you would rather not do that, that's fine.

in better ways than I can.

supportive of it being put into a museum as a piece of history?

From what I read above, you are more for the former than the latter, right?

to decide whether they wish to keep flying it on state grounds or keeping it incorporated in their state flags.

If they decide to keep it, I don't have a problem with that if they elect to take it down or remove it, then more power to them.

I believe this would be the best course of action versus a top down federal response in order to preempt or minimize any "states rights" argument and ensuing resentment.

it wasn't put up as a result of a referendum when the Civil Rights Act was passed, was it?

Should the U.S. Supreme Court have jumped in, delayed and then overruled the Florida Supreme Court's decision to count all the votes in the state?

Was Bush in the right taking this to the federal level?

misdirection.

You missed answering my question so I'll repeat it:

Was the flag raised as a result of a referendum after the Civil Rights Act passed?

Last edited Fri Jul 3, 2015, 12:18 AM - Edit history (1)

you didn't answer mine.

Yes the flag was raised during the Civil Rights turmoil, that was over fifty years ago, many people don't believe it but times do change even in the South.

Now that I have answered your question, perhaps you will answer mine?

you and I are in agreement on that. What seems to still be in contention is how that change should be symbolized and who should decide what symbols are appropriate to indicate change and what those symbols say about change.

As to bush v gore, I don't equate the removal of the flag from government grounds of equal importance to that of the overriding of states' rights to appoint a President, you may differ with me on that.

pig shit, mud of committing war crimes ie; torture, ignored warnings of an impending terrorist attack leading to 9/11, blew our national debt all to hell leaving Obama with a major mess, literally turned the federal government in to "Big Brother" (not the television show), totally devastated our national reputation abroad, ignored the tragedy of Katrina leaving the people there (mostly African Americans) to drown, (Al Gore came to the rescue for some of them stranded in a hospital) appointed the S.C. Justices which would pass Citizens United placing the almighty dollar over the peoples' actual speech creating an uphill environment for liberals and progressive to get elected while becoming the most incompetent President in memory, I beg to differ, one thing about Bush he wasn't a symbol, he was an all too real nightmare.

which was about change, the flag, symbols denoting change, etc. and, instead, went on a rant about bush v gore which, as I stated before, I believe a misdirection.

You see the flag as important an issue as the appointment of a President? You equate them the same?

letting them decide which symbols they wish to keep or get rid of and apparently you don't.

When I brought up the states rights argument in determining their symbols, you demeaned that as only meaning an attack on civil rights, that was my take on it.

I will restate that I believe referendums would be the best solution.

only certain ones?

The flag was raised on government grounds as a protest against the passage of the Civil Rights Act so, yes, it was an attack on civil rights, a middle finger to it, symbolically speaking.

I see more mix-raced couples every day and people don't bat an eye.

About that same time of the Civil Rights Era was also the approaching centennial of the The Civil War so there were several emotional factors in play.

The flag was raised as a protest against civil rights but if the people decide they want to keep it, and especially in regards to the make up of the vote, that taint will be diminished.

If they decide to take it down, more power to them.

It wasn't considered to be important enough to the heritage of the state to fly it on government grounds until the Civil Rights Act passed so why would it be considered important now?

This could be an emotional statement in identifying themselves to a region, black or white.

No doubt people will have different motives regarding their vote depending on the prism in which they view this symbol and their overall lives.

"No doubt people will have different motives regarding their vote depending on the prism in which they view this symbol and their overall lives."

Peace to you, Spazito.

We may disagree intrinsically about the disposition of the flag but I appreciated the civil tone with which you expressed your disagreement.

it will be plain after you spend a few hours there, why this flag is far more than just a symbol to some folks. It is a symbol (if you insist in using that word) of the Volk... and yes I mean it in that way.

shove Gay rights down their throats, which is how they would word it.

I think the bigot haters are mad and not done yet, I think that is the point.

I am not calling anyone in this discussion a bigot hater.

Pointing to this dynamic, without actually linking to these sewers. Usually you do, but in this case most media is abstaining from doing more than just ahem, mentioning them.

But the empathetic person in me recognizes they have had an incredibly bad week. I can have empathy for their pain, not their hate.

it's still only a symbol, it only has power because too many people empower a colored piece of cloth which is inextricably tied to the American Nation with hate and fear.

I also have no doubt that if you kept searching on the Internet, it would only take seconds to find racists, hate mongers, the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood flying the U.S. Flag.

We as a nation will be much stronger against these evil forces when we can at least overlook our scars and move on in a united manner.

I'm convinced that by taking power away from the Confederate Flag, regionalism in general will be diminished and as that's reduced so will racism.

Is a good step. As to the U.S. Flag being flown by the KKK, yes and no. It's complicated.

I don't have a problem with that, I believe referendums would be a good idea.

If they decide to remove them from state government grounds, more power to them.

Allowing the people of those states to decide will minimize any objections and/or resentment regarding the "states rights" argument.

A top down federal response will not.

I fervently hope that states flying it or which have it incorporated in their state flags can and will hold these referendums for the sake of themselves and the nation.

...

And you know you are on the wrong side of this one when even Paul Thurmond is on the right side of this. His father is probably doing summersaults though.

Right now there is a bet on how many folks will actually show for the KKK rally in South Carolina. Some folks are thinking 100. I am willing to go as high as 500. There were thousands in 2000. The sentiment has completely changed... and if you want to fly at home, pride, past, what have you, first amendment. But none of these moves are being driven by the Feds. Nor is the President pushing for this. It is purely driven at the state level, by state level politicians.

The whip count in the South Carolina Assembly, for example, is for removal by the way.

I doubt the politics suddenly changed. But the murders were the catalyst. For the record you are aware when that flag went up. It was not 1865 (and by the way Robert E Lee wanted them burned as well after he lost), but 1960. This is not a coincidence.

on a previous post times do change even here in the South, your post is also evidence of that.

Some people on other threads have argued the federal government could step in and force them to remove it from state grounds as the 1st Amendment doesn't protect the state, and Obama hasn't moved on this but that's what I was referring to.

but I just asked Amazon about the latest rumor regarding this mythical federal intervention on them sewers, I need a shower after all this swimming in the sewers. I will have to wait for them to answer, before I run that piece though. Or if they do not by tomorrow afternoon.

No, I will not link to the sewers though.

Now I have to shower, so take this.

Peace to you, nadin.

Its a divide and conquer tactic the 1% use against the people. Give me a goddamn raise and stop tossing around racist and divisive flags.

on an emotional level.

But I definitely agree with you on the distraction issue, divide, distract and conquer are the order of the day for the string pullers.

It didn't matter that I wrapped his casket in the flag they gave me. He was just as dead, the surreal and sublime went totally unnoticed except for me.

You are right that the flags have some emotional connection that won't be broken until we have a one world government.

Your notion that people choose to give symbols power and people can easily change that reminds me of the now PPR'd member who suggested the N-word controversy could be ended simply if only African Americans subjected to it would smile and think of another word in its place.

Even references re: race are mutable, "colored" was acceptable at one time, then the term changed to "black Americans," today it's "African Americans," I look forward to the day when we and the corporate media can just call each other Americans period regardless of race.

How is the symbol you defend mutable? It hasn't changed since the Civil War.

created in 1775 was an inspiration during the Revolutionary War that didn't change until the Tea Party co-opted it less than ten years ago there are people here at D.U. stating that the "Don't Tread on Me Flag" is forever tainted now.

Symbols are mutable.

You're not co-opting it for something that is now magically benign, even if you think so.

1 in 4 African Americans in South Carolina believe it is considered benign, I listed the links to the USA Today and Washington Post articles with those polls up-thread.

with trying to justify the Dixie Swastika?

My obsession is with the power of the 1st Amendment.

My obsession is with democracy.

My obsession is with a stronger and more united United States.

My obsession is with putting past nightmares behind us.

My obsession is with diminishing the power of a divisive symbol by trusting the people keeping it as a more inclusive symbol or voting to take it down.

Symbols are mutable.

Peace to you.