I'd like to go back to April, 1865 after the surrender at Appomattox and give the following advice to Abe.

First, Abe...don't go that that play later this month.

Second, announce a two year federal military occupation of the south, during which time any former slaves who wish to be resettled can move anywhere they want at U.S. expense. Hey we got lots of land, right?

Third, after two years for resettlement of former slaves, let the Confederate States of America have what they wanted (minus the slaves). Give them their independence. Announce that the only U.S. involvement in their affairs will be to prevent their expansion west or anywhere beyond their current borders. Other than that, they're on their own.

Sure, our southern neighbor nation will be a bigoted, ignorant third world country for as long as the eye can see, but at least they won't be part of us. The United States of America will be much better off for the rest of our history.

Some places are just a few points from turning Blue. We've made some great advances in The South.

The South is Beautiful, and belongs to all of us.
Would you throw all that away,
or work to fix it?


--bvar22 & Starkraven
Changing The South one person at a time.


It has been encouraging to watch the youth in this area.
They are all "connected", and that has broken the monopoly between Parent, Pastor, and Teacher.

If those of you who hate the South are successful at dividing this Nation,
I'll stick with the piece that gets New Orleans, and live my days out happily.

by the Confederates winning the war or in the case of your scenario.

As two nations each would be weaker, ie:population, economics, resources and in turn militarily.

It's possible the U.S. might have waged the Spanish American War but less likely, even less so entering the "Great War" aka: WWI fighting alongside France, Great Britain and helping them to eventually win the war.

There would be an increased chance that Germany would've won WWI or least obtained a more beneficial (to Germany) peace treaty had they not won.

All of that together decreases the chances that Hitler and Nazis would've come to power further decreasing the chances that WWII would've happened at least in the form that it did happen.

One aspect of war that must be taken into account is the acceleration, birth and further development of technologies (both positive and negative) in the case of WWII that would be jet flight, rockets, radar, computers, medical advancements, nuclear energy/weapons and a host of others.

It's possible we might have computers, the Internet, spaceflight, MRIs, Cat-scans, smart phones, satellites, GPS and a host of other inventions today, but less likely.

Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2015, 03:06 PM - Edit history (1)

Blues! Memphis and 'Orleans style.

Did you not?

Do you wish the rest of the U.S. to be like those states?

It would appear that the most poverty stricken places have high income inequality because rare middle class incomes will count as "unequal" in such areas. University areas and single industry areas also have "elites" which skew the numbers. First example is Washtenaw County in Michigan (Univ of Mich) where there is an academic and STEM elite who are "unequal" with the students, service workers, and farmers who are the majority of the population. Second example is Midland County, Michigan where Dow Chemical provides executive salaries which dwarf the incomes of the rural farmers.

High levels of diversity also seem to be a driver of inequality.

There is that cresent shape of shade running from South NC to Mississipi that over laps the Cotton Belt. The same shape is found is the distribution of democrats in the South, and the percentage of where NFL playes originate. Interesting.

I think poverty in an area is the best measure of inequality (of course concentrations of minorities tend to have high poverty rates). I do see that black/Democratic/unequal crescent through the southeast.

South Florida and the Mexican border counties are also high inequality.

The South has made great strides, in spite of being punished for decades after the Civil War.

Atlanta is the busiest airport in the entire world. Atlanta ranks in the 10 cities ten for business and business growth. North Carolina has world class research in the Triangle in Duke, NC State, and UNC. Add to that Wake Forest. This includes medicine. Alabama is often the butt of jokes, but areas like Birmingham, Huntsville and Mobile are advanced, matured, eduated, and--yes--even refined.

The timber industry in the southeast rivals, and sometimes exceeds, that of the great Pacific Northwest. Home growth is greatest in the South, with the best prices. The South has even grown in terms of sports teams, which attracts tourists and other business. The South has its share of manufacturing, at least according to BLS: http://www.areadevelopment.com/regionalreports/q1-2013/states-leading-us-manufacturing-resurgence-2665542.shtml

The South has also advanced socially, despite its bad and unwarranted reputation. The nasty desegregation battles occurred in places like Boston and Dayton Ohio, not in the south. I worked in Brooklyn New York. Places like E Flatbush, Brownsville, E New York, etc. and some of the most segregated places around.

The South has it's share of culture and refinement. Nashville is a music mecca, and not just for country. It's rich in various music tradition. I often measure a place's sophistication by the number of health food stores. Nashville has those. The health food store chain Fresh Market was founded in Greensboro NC. Earthfare is based in Asheville NC.

Habitat for Humanity was founded in Georgia. Atlanta is a hub for civil right education, civil rights history, etc.

The list goes on.

The South certainly has its problems. Inter-generational is, in fact, low in a lot of places, but places like North Dakota, the upper Midwest, and even parts of Texas are better than the rest of the country. I do however, get tired of The South as whipping boy.

I would finally say that lot of regional differences in America have disappeared. That is due to telecommunications and other factors. You might find something you like in one area of the country, only to be confronted with two other things you don't like.

If you go five miles out of town, you go back 50 years.

Werner Von Braun and the "Paperclip boys" changed Huntsville from a sleepy "market town" to a STEM center.

Bigots and racists are all over this country. There are a few states where it might be better, but the south doesn't have a lock on bigotry or racism.

When is it enough.

Pay them no mind.

Relocating down here. Lower cost of living and real estate.

and fight like hell to keep those in the north from working the same job for $30 an hour plus benefits.

Instead of saying...hey, I would like to increase MY standard of living, they say...let's drag them down to mine.

And the CEOs laugh the entire way while socking away record profits and bonuses that they don't have to give to the employees despite the record productivity of the American worker.

That's not progress. That is the southern recipe for disaster and it is what is impacting the financial state of this country in a very negative way.

Standard of living is relative, $10 an hour down here can go farther than other places and might be a better lifestyle than $20 an hour in New York City.

I would say $12-15 an hour is an average entry level job around here. My jobs the last 10 years down here have ranged between $19-27 an hour and had decent benefits, my current one even has a pension as well.

It's cheap living out in the country, I got one acre with a 10 year old 1300 sq ft house for $90,000, property taxes are $600 a year, insurance is $550 a year, mortgage is $500 with all that included.

The same house costing 3-4x as much in other areas and a similar job having to pay $30-40 an hour somewhere else isn't my problem. Maybe those areas should work on bringing their costs down to an affordable level. Increasing living costs in the South certainly isn't an answer.

I know how this plays out.

Low incomes produce low tax bases which produce low performing schools which means no infrastructure which means no healthcare and no possibility to leave the poverty behind. It is ensuring generational poverty with a few lucky enough to get one of the "good jobs" at the local Dollar Store.

It is self-perpetuating.

Shows way more unequal counties in the South. Statistic can be misleading. That not to be bias; it could be more inequality here. We have suffer much lost of high paid manufacturing jobs due to trade deals.

I understand that; I equally defend my State versus attacks.

Look at it from our prospective--we have to live under the effects of rightwingers who center their power in the South and central States; can you blame us for fantasizing what could be if we'd snip that off? Closer to the social and economic progressivism of Canada that's for sure. Yes there are rightwingers and district in all states too, but without the south they'd be a lot more centrist than they are now; if Canada would join the US, the southern factions would empower their rightwing too, destroying the programs they have. This is why we hate the South; their politics effect our lives. We are simply worse off because of it; we have a right to be angry.

Though that doesn't excuse stereotyping and strawmaning. And we are one country like it or not. I understand the south has progressives and in fact, has a proud progressive tradition ( William Jennings Bryant, Huey Long, LBJ). That though has went off the rails because of racism, a sin no doubt just as bad in the North, but institutionalized deeper in the South. You guys go too far defending your beloved state you fall into flat out denilism. Fact is, if we are to better America we need to come to terms with the effects of slavery in a healthy manner-- in ALL the U.S-- and especially where it held standing for much of our nations live, below the Mason-Dixon line. You southern liberals have to lead the way, if we are to have any future beyond plutocracy .

It's a terrible place for labor, great for bosses who don't want to deal with unions.

It is actually kind of sad.

I don't know what the hell 'normal' is. We have various kinds of people spread out all over the country. The only difference is that the types of people aren't spread out evenly, so you have lumps of certain types of people here and there in the mixture.

Nowadays you could divide the country in all sorts of ways. If we were divided, however, you'd find large numbers of disaffected in every region. The country is much more diverse than it was before the Civil War.

If my town was given the choice to secede with the South or to stay in the union, I'm pretty sure we would vote to stay. There are places like this all over the South. Remember that the racist assholes don't own southern culture. We have endured despite them, not because of anything of worth that they've contributed.


.

but I have lived on the Gulf Coast all of my life, and we are no more backward than any other diverse group of people.

Look at Pennsylvania and Ohio with Sandusky and Steubenville for example. Yet nobody is equating them with being pedophile and rape capitals. People in the South do a lot of stupid things - nobody denies it.

I'd like to see all of us decrease horrible crimes instead of pointing fingers at each other and saying "Well you are worse!"

"You are worse!" isn't a defense, it's an excuse. We all have to step up to the plate.

coming out of the woodwork trying to take vengeance on us for daring to have the right to marry. There are like 6 threads going with people feigning disappointment that we horrible, discriminatory gays aren't on board with marrying toasters, dogs, several people at once, etc.

It's always the same assholes.

They need to cry their tears to somebody else, because crying to me is the last person they need to be crying to! LOL!

Happy 4th of July - I'm just having a moment where I am sick of idiots pissing on our parade!!!

lines and no solutions.

It's a rural vs. urban problem. Stuff is more expensive in cities and developed areas and they are more liberal, rural areas are cheaper and more conservative.

If we can suspend the constitution and declare marshal law, then occupy and reeducate them to the ways of the North we can make America great again.


If only.....

FYI

We be a poor hopeless group

You consider Americans from other parts of the country living in your region to be "invading and occupying" it. Nice. Those people are there in the first place because they like your region. Why are you so hostile toward them?

could be the professor for this "education"? Or Giuliani ? One of the Bush family?

Kansas is much more conservative than a state like North Carolina or Virginia (and perhaps even Georgia), and Idaho isn't known for being a bastion for progressives. Then there's Utah, Wyoming, South Dakota, West Virginia, etc., all of which are reliably Republican states at the present time. And as others have mentioned, Pennsylvania and Ohio have enclaves as racist as any place in the South, not to mention Boston and its great record on race relations. I've lived in many states and traveled to most others and much prefer the South. According to the SPLC, the states with the most hate groups are Florida, Pennsylvania, and California, all of which have more than Texas or any other state in the deep south. Ohio has more hate groups than Alabama or Mississippi. http://www.splcenter.org/hate-map. In short, the South doesn't have a monopoly on hate, and the constant South-bashing by certain posters on DU is both factually inaccurate, politically shortsighted and contrary to the values that liberals stand for.

for us on correct police enforcement practices.

If you Google Ferguson, Cleveland, New York and Baltimore, there is a wealth of information at your disposal.

It's the only way to be sure.

I love my neighbors to the south. Especially the ones who don't daily labor for the individuals making life on this planet not only uncomfortable for us, nigh impossible for those tomorrow.

I prefer to stand with real people like Bubba and Tex than newly minted "real people" by our coastal friends like Hallie Burton and Che Vron.

It may be that a homeless and broke apolitical person does more for me and the future of this country than a democrat in a hedge fund castle.

At the very least, less damaging things to all lifeforms.

I don't live in the south, but most of those poor qualities can be found throughout the US. The south is more Conservative, but the same backwards attitudes the author complains about are found all over the US. I also sense a tinge of superiority in the article, like the south is a bunch of backwards rednecks holding us enlightened souls back. If we are to go forward as a country, it has to be together.

I grew up in Charleston, and I've lived for way too long in the South. I also have had a chance to travel a lot (lived in Texas, Alaska, etc.).

Even in the early 60's in SC, my parents (originally from rural GA from a slave owning family) were SUPPORTIVE of equal opportunity for African Americans and integration. I had a gay Aunt (family nickname was "Jeff&quot who lived with a partner all her life without anyone in the family caring or rejecting her lifestyle and she was born in the 1920's). We just grew up accepting it.

My family believed in educated women, fair pay, and legal status for immigrants - including migrants who worked on the family farm. In the early 60's, I picked tobacco (everyone used child labor) along side migrants.

Other family members worked in textile mills in SC, and I remember debates over unions and the rights of workers to a safe environment and freedom from dependence on the factory job.

Honestly, for all the racism and backwards thinking of many in the South there have always been some who are progressive. I worked to elect Jimmy Carter, and also worked for Richard Riley (2 term Gov. of SC and Clinton's Sec. of Ed.). The South has had plenty of liberal politicians as far back into the 20th century as you want to go.

Yes, there is a history of problems, but also a history of conflict over those problems. It's not fair to paint the South with a single brush.

I've also traveled to practically every continental state in the nation, and I would really like to go to Alaska.

I've also traveled outside of the US.

People that have never been out of their own home states have a tendency to judge others as "weird" or "uneducated".

If you travel the world, you learn that "weird" and "uneducated" can be found everywhere - if you are looking for something to criticize.

If you are looking for things to take delight in, things to celebrate, and want to bring good people together? You can also find that anywhere.

Both of youse have to get over your superiority and act like Americans first.

or you get push back from liberals in the South and people in the south who are instant victims. Also there are many black people in the South.

Limit it to the people who want to fly the Confederate Flag and you might have something.

I'm a born-and-bred Southerner and a liberal and so is my entire Southern-born family!

Compare the south with the rest of the country.

No wonder they're all so ill-tempered!

California is worse than Mississippi or Tennessee. Rhode Island is worse than Kentucky or North Carolina.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_Gini_coefficient

Another ill-thought-out South-bashing article, apparently.

Here's an idea: Let's think of problems in terms of everyone taking responsibility, instead of fantasizing that we live on a more enlightened piece of ground.

By the way, the wonderful, shoulda-crushed-'em Abraham Lincoln was pretty wishy washy about the evils of slavery, and his initial policy was in favor of "re-patriating" black people to Africa. He initially forbade Union generals from freeing slaves in conquered Southern states, and issued the Emancipation Proclamation largely to further de-stabilize the South.

While we're at long last pulling down that stupid Confederate flag, why don't maybe retire the idea that people in the North are smarter or more enlightened than everyone else?

In fact, maybe electing to live where you have shovel snow and chip ice off of everything you own for three months every year isn't a sign of social or intellectual superiority, at all.

in the south and lived here for most of my life. It's terrible here and northerners should definitely not move down here. You'd hate it here. You should leave it to those of us who can handle a 1,600 sq. ft. house on an acre and a half of land; those of us who can choke down ham biscuits and ice tea; who can endure low crime rates; and those of us that see beautiful mountains and not hate. We'll sacrice for youse guys.

that none of those things exists outside of the south? You sound like the genius OP of another thread who believes that there's no seafood except in the south.

People who don't want to be thought of as ignoramuses shouldn't make such ignorant posts.

over this country so I'm well aware that there are those things all over. You obviosly don't get the tongue in cheek nature of my post which might just make you the ignorant one. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure you're as ignorant as you are snotty.

That doesn't make it a good idea

if there hadn't been so many conservative state legislators doing the redistricting in those states. Those conservative state legislators were elected by the people.

Without HUMANS .