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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI am sorry for slavery. Part of the privilege of being white is that I don't often need to
Last edited Thu Jul 9, 2015, 03:16 AM - Edit history (1)
think too hard about slavery. My university forced us to take a class that qualified as an ethnic studies class. My Junior year I decided I would get that requirement out of the way while at the same time fulfilling a literature requirement. I chose an African American Literature course. We read selections from the Norton Anthology of African American Literature 2nd Edition. In this course I was exposed to
Lucy Terry - Bars Fight
Phillis Wheatley - Various poems and letters
Harriet Jacobs - A fair bit of "Incidents in the life of a Slave Girl"
William Wells Brown - "Narrative of W.W.B, a Fugitive Slave" and also "Clotel"
Henry Highland Garnet - We read an Address to the Slaves of the USA
Frederick Douglass - Narrative and some other stuff
Booker T. Washington - from "Up From Slavery" and a speech which we compared and contrasted to Garnet's
Charles W. Chesnutt - "The Goophered Grapevine" and "The Passing of Grandison"
W.E.B DuBois - most of "The Souls of Black Folks"
Paul Laurence Dunbar - 15 or so different poems
James Weldon Johnson - We read all of "The Autobiography of an Ex-Colored Man"
Marcus Garvey - "Africa for Africans" and "The Future and I See It"
Zora Neale Hurston - "Sweat" and "How it Feels to Be Colored Me"
Richard Wright - "Native Son" Watched the Movie.
We watched a little bit of Birth of a Nation.
We watched Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Toms Cabin (didn't read it)
Gwendolyn Brooks - read a whole laundry list of stuff from her.
Toni Morrison - Part II or "Song of Solomon"
Then we each had to do an author analysis of some other author in the book who we did not read in class. I chose;
Octavia Butler - and for that I read "Kindred" and "Parable of the Sower"
Probably more, but this was from memory so it's the best I could do. Anyway, this has all served very well to open my eyes to the plight of African Americans, but the crystalizing moment for me was the day when we watched a documentary about the middle passage. They described many horrors of chattel slavery, but the one thing that shook me to my core was the image of "tight packing."
It never really struck home the utter disregard for humanity toward the African people until I saw and considered the mindset it took to rip people from their homeland, stack them in the hull of a ship for months on end lying in their own shit and piss, unable to move with no idea when this hell might cease. African American's might as well have been a box of pencils or a stack of cord wood. Maybe even less than that. What we did to you was unconscionable and horrific. And given that a politician, a leader I admire greatly acknowledged that we needed to apologize for slavery, I wanted to do my part as a white American by acknowledging your forefather's and mother's suffering. I want to say that I'm so, so sorry for slavery. I am unequivocally ashamed for what my "Christian" forefathers did to you and yours. I know it means not much, but I want you to know that this white American is interested in your struggles. This white American can only try, unsuccessfully, but try I do, to empathize with your people's plight. I am ashamed that all these years later, you are still classified by your skin color and suffer the centuries worth of indignities to this day. I am sorry for slavery. I am sorry for racism. I am sorry for my white privilege. I am sorry that cops kill your children while the justice system and our lawmakers incarcerate your brothers and fathers at rates that dwarf those of white people's incarceration rates. I am sorry that over half of your young people go unemployed. I am sorry you are often ghettoized and then forced out/priced out of the homes you manage to make in your ghetto by gentrification. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry and I wish there was something I could do to make amends. I'm sorry for the slavery you've endured at white hands for the last 400 years and still endure today. I'm sorry for slavery.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)pass your feelings on to your friends and family.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)shraby
(21,946 posts)tblue
(16,350 posts)So you've done way more than probably anybody I know to acquaint yourself with black American history and literature. Thank you, thank you, thank you for investing your time and your heart in gaining an understanding of the pain you have never and will never have to face in your own life. Honestly, thank you. If only everyone would do that, what a wonderful world this could be.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)And yes, those pictures really are worth a thousand words. So horrific.
Paka
(2,760 posts)Black Studies Professor at my university and I took every class he taught back in the '70's. As a result I was introduced to a wide range of African American writers. What a great experience that was, and truly an eye opener.
Thanks for this posting.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)The Indian part wishes Columbus never made it back.
BTW: Is this a good time to bring up the name of the first slave ship or what King James did to the Bible?
vlakitti
(401 posts)and The Souls of Black Folk is just overwhelming. It ought to be required reading in US high schools.
brer cat
(24,576 posts)that students have to go out of their way to learn essential parts of our own history and culture. The textbook history that most encounter ignore and/or sugar-coat the treatment and life journeys of both native Americans and AfAms. I don't know how it is today, but in the 80's and early 90's when my daughter was in school, she was expose to ZERO writings by poc in American lit courses. We may have an integrated society, but we are woefully segregated in our curriculum.
Very good post, Ed. We do owe an apology and recognition of white privilege, and I join you.
tblue37
(65,403 posts)leave out the KKK and Jim Crow!
"Whitewash: New Texas history books will downplay slavery, omit KKK and Jim Crow"
DU thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026947153
Original on Raw Story:
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/whitewash-new-texas-history-books-will-downplay-slavery-omit-kkk-and-jim-crow/
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Romulox
(25,960 posts)War on Drugs, the racist for-profit prison system, and wars on brown people all over the world.
Notice that we don't "reflect" on any of the latter in modern society, very much.
tavernier
(12,392 posts)Quayblue
(1,045 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Well it might have had people found and were able to put to use stuff like oil and coal earlier, but the history that we know is the one that unfolded the way it did.
Not so much apologizing for slavery, but if we're going down that road, we should apologize for what made slavery needed, which is the resource concentration mechanism we call civilization. Slavery is obviously far older than white America, or America.
American slavery is really just a branch on the tree. You're not really close to the root. That goes back thousands and thousands of years, not just a few hundred.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)civilization doesn't happen without slavery have you forgotten all the small farms in the Midwest that did not use slavery? The immigrants went out there and built their homes, plowed their fields and grew their foods without the benefit of slavery and they are definitely a part of civilization happening.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Go through the 10,000 year or so history of civilization, and try and find a way that civilization as we know happens without slavery, in one form or another. Midwestern farmers, ok, they didn't use slaves at the particular time that they were growing their crops. Not every white person that lives in the south is racist either. The small picture, and big picture, can exist at the same time, even if they're contradictory.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Really?
(Nope, 1SBM ... stop right there!)
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)And please don't call me a racist when I said nothing racist. Did I say one race was better than another? No.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)who wrongly believe that Africans and African Americans haven't contributed anything.
The discussion is pertinent because our school textbooks are being rewritten as I type this message to discard this country's history of oppression against people of color.
That's how it'll change this.
Get out and read more about the history of civilization. And don't make idiotic statements.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)Africans or African Americans not contributing anything, in what I imagine you mean a positive way. I said that the resource concentration mechanism we call civilization would not exist without slavery. That was it.
Maybe when you're talking about civilization, you mean the art and culture aspect of it. The good stuff. The stuff that comes after the bad stuff. Many people have contributed to that. What I'm talking is the other side of civilization, which is far more violent in nature. The way that America wouldn't exist without the slavery and genocide.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)You'll get it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)"And they had slavery in Africa, too"
Let me just get that out the way:
Slavery in Africa was wholly different from slavery in the Americas ... primarily because slavery in Africa was not life-long, nor was it inter-generational; slaves in Africa frequently inter-MARRIED with the capturing tribe; slaves in Africa; slaves in Africa were an esteemed and respected part of society, not stigmatized property.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Summer_(1919)
I'd like to see some of these people TRY to tell us blacks did it too. All this hand wringing over Ferguson and Baltimore since last summer -
And yet it wasn't three dozen cities.
And black folks didn't go around castrating, hanging, tarring and feathering white folks because I don't know -
They woke up that morning and thought it would be fun.
All they've got is 'slavery' 1strong. They will always back away from The New Jim Crow. They know there is not one single equivalent in the world. Not one.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Nope ... to defense the virtue of white womens! It was their DUTY!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Other countries enslave the conquered, the poor or those of other religions. American slavery was based and has continued in less obvious ways *legally* based on race.
The reason black people are targeted is that they are not keeping their *rightful place* by not wearing shackles. So something is connived to make sure that they are put back into shackles again, one way or the other.
It's not about economics, jobs, poverty or religion. Those are just symptoms of the cancer of racism. The mental landscape of black oppressors is the belief they are the inferior 'Other.'
Economics was not the reason for the Civil War, not in the minds of Confederate leaders. It was about race. They also believed women were born incompetent to vote or control what their lives would be.
This is part of the philosophical basis of the Confederacy and all the racist actions that later occured. They believed that the Founders of the USA were out of their minds to believe 'all men are created equal.'
From their bigoted stance, they decided Africans had a role for life. As well as women. And they were the only ones fit to be in charge of government. The actions of the GOP now openly display these beliefs when they restrict voting, get a big happy about lynching PBO, with sovereign citizen groups, the Tenther squads, and believe their guns are their god-given right to protect them from 'the blacks.' Their conspiracy fans preach everything about the founding of this country is a banker plot. They're unwilling to admit the diversion.
But are willing to take us back to before the USConstitution was written to maintain a failed philosophy. They will not win in the end, even in bloodshed, and they are terrified.
Whites in Europe saw when they sailed around the world, that they were a minority and it's why they feel like victims. They could have done better by cooperating with natives, freed and distributed land in the era after the Civil War, but no, they kept to their belief system. All has followed their mindset.
Just a few thoughts, Strong.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I found this series enlightening....sorry for the low quality but it is YouTube...
Great thread!
This video is 1 of 3
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Thanks.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)not a comprehensive one; but, a starting place.
I will look on my book shelf and find a better reference.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Was there a title for that one?
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)On Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:37 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Isn't mind boggling? Civilization began in Africa. These racists here don't know shit!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6957040
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
How can we let this go. Calling another DUer THAT HAS A OPINION ABOUT CIVILIZATION a racist. We cannot have discussions on this site as long as we let post like this stand. Please, let's try to be civil, no matter what we are discussing. Please hide.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:40 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Meh. Both sides are overheated. Not unusual in such discussions.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: no
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: An observation that racists don't know what they're talking about deserves a hide? I think not.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It could have been said in a better way.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Agree with alert
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)*sigh* Having an opinion about an opinion is not the same thing as calling someone racist.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)I automatically assumed that 1strong got another jury alert!
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)Second: You are female. Well, just ask any Republican and obviously to some others, how big a problem that is.
Third: As a... uh, blah... female you are subject to more than the other two combined. Subject to... you know.
Love you! Keep on kicking tail!
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)...though Cruz and "Chump" are up there, too.
Thanks for the kind words.
Tarheel_Dem
(31,234 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Seriously, it's right there. "These racists here don't know shit!"
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)53. Isn't mind boggling? Civilization began in Africa. These racists here don't know shit!
example of a racist at DU - who just got the boot - NMBirder
http://www.democraticunderground.com/118718123
his transparency page:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=305302&sub=trans
His profile: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=305302
He was here since June 25, 2013 - took two years to weed him out.
What LS responded to uses the language of - "but they did it first. Blame the black people. We should atone for something that happened thousands of years ago because it's relevant to the US today" (it's not).
There are bigots and racists and homophobes and anti Semitics and sexists at DU. Lately I'm starting to think there are a lot of ageists who feel our boomers and silents are in the way. These folks - it takes two years to weed out. In the meantime - we are tasked with being tolerant and polite about ignorance and stupidity because that's all you can do with a polite bigot who smiles in your face and gets nervous when they see a black person walking down their street. Those types are at DU.
Her statement is correct. I thought the alert was about 1Strongblackman - because he could write- "Good morning! The sky is blue! " And he will get a hide for being mean, calling people out, accusing people who don't like blue skies of being colorists against people who prefer gray skies and rainy days.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)She flat-out called him a racist.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)DU is becoming tit for tat.
And his statements were sketchy. Jmho - but sketchy as hell!
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I'm just here to inform you that your claim that she didn't call him a racist, was blindingly, obviously, undeniably wrong.
And no, actually. He seemed to be making a point about civilization and its apparent need for exploited labor. I would strongly recommend picking up Derrick Jensen's "Endgame" for a relevant critique of "civilization."
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)And if the shoe fits . . .
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)again. What a crock of shit alert.
Response to lovemydog (Reply #135)
freshwest This message was self-deleted by its author.
randys1
(16,286 posts)NOLALady
(4,003 posts)Lord. Help. Us.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)I'm totally digging this thread. First time I've laughed out loud at DU in a long time!
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)So I don't have to rub shoulders. I can just chit chat with them on the internet and be done. I don't have to smile at them or be polite in real life.
blm
(113,065 posts)totally cracked me up .
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)that makes this thread, pale in comparison ... Did you know that "a lot of white folks are harmed more than helped by institutional racism."
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)I'm back to cultural anthropology with that one!
Response to 1StrongBlackMan (Reply #112)
freshwest This message was self-deleted by its author.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Slavery in America.
It's not that I'm unsympathetic to the plight of other people elsewhere because I'm not, it's still wrong, but it's not the subject of the op.
Same with a poster downthread that brought up the fact Africans sold off other Africans into slavery. Which countries in Africa I don't know.
Although I'm sure it happened, I can't compare it to what white folks did to our ancestors here in the U.S.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)He's throwing out an empty apology for something he didn't do. If you're going to go down that road, you might as well keep going back, and apologize for a whole host of issues. Nothing started in America. Go back and apologize for the first guy that figured out he could get someone else to do a hell of a lot of free work if he threated him with pain and death. That's where it all started.
randys1
(16,286 posts)philosslayer
(3,076 posts)What are your thoughts? How should it be handled?
randys1
(16,286 posts)AfAm, Japense Am, Native Am
Tax the hell out of rich people no matter who they are and corps.
Then pay...you can work out the details
BTW, probably wouldnt do it in checks for individuals, would do it in community methods
heaven05
(18,124 posts)how about all modern day business interests and multi-billionaire families who have documented links to businesses that profited off the labor of slaves during 'The American Slave Era' have to pay reparations to documented families of american slaves. If a business like I.G.Farben, in Germany, could possibly be forced to pay reparations to documented families of their WW2 slave labor force, it is no real stretch to me that american businesses and multi-billionaire families linked to slavery and to the slave trade could be singled out to have to pay for their ill-gotten gain. These families and businesses made huge profits off the labor of and traffic in human bondage, misery, tragedy and degradation. They need to pay reparations now. The slave trader families who contributed to the genocide of millions during, just say 'The Middle Passage' and are living in luxury today, need to pay reparations now.
This not an original proposition, but given the continuing nature of racism as exemplified by just the recent "suspicious" death of Sandra Bland in the waller county, TEXAS jail, by hanging, and the summary executions of unarmed children, women and men of color in this country since say just, Trayvon Martin, reparations is not a stretch. The killer citizens of unarmed POC, like roof and zimmerman and murderous LEO's who's racism can be linked to the Slavery Era and post slavery old and new Jim Crow segregationist laws, thought and action in america are proof of the continuing racist mentality in american culture. Given that this is truth, this type of proposal must be continuously put forth by interested and concerned citizens who take umbrage at the continued insult of racism in the form of these murders in the streets and churches of america. And the continuing insult by people who revere the sheet wearing "night riders" and their modern day confederate flag waving clowns and buffoons who are murdering slavery's descendants of color everyday. The reparations need to be started now.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)We're talking about good ole American Slavery.
Eta same applies to Mr. Well The African's Did It downthread here.
Quayblue
(1,045 posts)I have more to say but I'm in the middle of coding something and don't want to get riled up. bbl
Autumn
(45,107 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)You don't need to appologise for anything that you didn't do.
Are you sorry for the holocaust too?
Are you sorry for the opium war?
Are you sorry for the crusades, inquisition, systemic oppression of non-Christians...
Or does your desire for racial collective guilt only extend to stuff your read a couple books about while attending college
you said it better than I could in response to this O.P.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Expressing sorrow is I believe, wholly different than making an apology. Yes, I do feel sorrow (i.e., I am sorry) for the holocaust, the crusades, the opium wars, et. al.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)that resulted in some sort of increased sense of empathy for a people that we brutally exploited.
If my dad raped your son/daughter, I'd be very sorry for what he did to him you and yours. If my grandfather hung your brother, I'd be very sorry for what he did to you and yours. If my great grandfather hunted your grandfather down, tarred and feathered him, strung him up over a fire in the town square while all of my great grandfather's friends made a social event out of watching the man put to death by being raised and lowered over the fire until slow cooked till death, I'd be so sorry for what my great grandfather did.
I am sorry. You don't have to be, I am sorry, and that is all I'm claiming.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)My white priviledge apparently doesn't include not having to think about my family being enslaved and marched to the death camps.
You can feel anything you want to feel about your great great great grandparents crimes. I don't bear any collective racial guilt for crimes that other people committed.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)They are talking about compassion, and empathy derived from knowledge of the history of African Americans.
If you feel guilty, that's on you.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)the holocaust, the opium war, the crusades, inquisition, systemic oppression of non-Christians.
And, how did any of those shape the current state of the United States?
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)jwirr
(39,215 posts)the opium wars - since I do not know if I have any direct link to the benefits of that war - no. Am I sorry for the crusades - since I have one of the real abusers during the crusades in my family tree - yes. The inquisition - since I am Christian - yes. The systematic oppression of non-Christians - connected through the holocaust, the ME wars - yes.
I am not so much personally sorry but I am recognizing that I have some connection to the events in the past and I am condemning those acts for what they are - WRONG. We tend to waltz our way through history as if it has nothing to do with us. That is one of the reasons I started doing genealogy - to make sure that my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren would understand that they are part of history - both the good and the bad.
I am sorry that we tolerated and defended slavery for so long. I am especially sorry that we are still doing it.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)And because of the fact that I have benefitted from it, no matter how indirectly, I consider it my obligation to fight it's ugly legacy of racism.
B2G
(9,766 posts)Yes, I am sorry.
But they should be held accountable as well.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Apparently enough DUERS have bought into the racist slavery apologist talking points to keep this offensive post here:
AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert
On Thu Jul 9, 2015, 09:47 AM you sent an alert on the following post:
Africans bear a huge responsibility for slave trade as well.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6956723
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
YOUR COMMENTS
I think it's pretty apparent is it not? Total racist talking points on slavery
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Jul 9, 2015, 09:51 AM, and voted3-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I would offer counter-arguments to the Poster, and explain why I disagree and where I am getting my information, not hide and mute the Poster.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: BAN WORTHY!!!
HIDE IT, OF COURSE.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Not only racist but historically incorrect! Take your racist bullshit elsewhere. Sick of racism on DU! It's ridiculous to put up with this as a person of color. DU moderators: DO SOMETHING ABOUT RACISM ON DU!!!!!!
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is true I'm afraid. We shouldn't hide truths that are unpleasant, and I don't think the poster meant it in a racist way.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Perhaps poster will come back and elaborate.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Racist slavery apologist talking points. Apparently enough jurors agree and let it stand.
B2G
(9,766 posts)actually makes slavery 100 times more horrifying than just talking about European culpability (which was vast).
These people were victimized by all sides...their countrymen and the Europeans.
How pointing that out equates to 'slavery apology' is beyond me...
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)AND false equivalence.
It's so easy to toss out clichés without saying why what I posted is incorrect, isn't it?
daleanime
(17,796 posts)the devil is in the details, and you provide none.
blm
(113,065 posts)freedom.
This nation's Constitution and our laws didn't extend to other countries.
We should only deal with what was done in OUR NATION, and OUR citizens and industries who were PAYING for the men, women, and children of Africa.
To try and make it equal in our concern is to further a RW talking point, whether you are aware of it or not.
Completely irrelevant racist false equivalence.
Man of Distinction
(109 posts)AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Thu Jul 9, 2015, 11:22 AM an alert was sent on the following post:
Really? Acknowleging BOTH sides of the slave trade
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6956898
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
And again. Now using false equivalence to justify racist slavery apologist talking points?
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Jul 9, 2015, 11:42 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: poster's initial comment was overly terse and provocative, probably deliberately so; later explanation (see post #25) clarifies. this is a substantive issue and a substantive discussion, worth having. the fact that there were people in africa who profited from slave trade doesn't justify slavery, nor does it blame the victim as it draws a distinction between slaves and their betrayers in africa. again, the initial post was problematic because the term "africans" muddles this all-important distinction. but again, post #25 clarifies.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: this post, in and of itself, is not hideworthy
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This is a repeat of the previous attack which was left alone. Nothing wrong with this post, alerter seems a bit sensitive. LEAVE IT ALONE
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: There ares some posts in this series I would vote to hide - this one isn't one of them. Address your concerns in the thread.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
I'm juror #5. The alert troll has his alert button suspended for 24 hours as a result.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)Nice to see racism has embedded itself at DU
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)here at DU daily.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Not agreeing with you on something doesn't make people racists.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)By saying "Africans did it too" is racist bullshit that has no place on this board.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Jerks who would sell out their countrymen is nowhere near on the level of a country founded on our ideals that *institutionized* it.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)for you too. **sigh** "Ideals?" Yes. Reality? Hell no, wasn't no stinking ideal especially for the First-american nations people or black-brown people brought here to be worked to death as slaves.... it called genocide.....geez the levels of historical ignorance being shown is truly depressing.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)I am fully aware this country was founded on slavery and genocide, regardless of what was spoken or written. But there were some pretty good ideals spoken and written, which makes the reality worse, IMHO.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Bobbie Jo
(14,341 posts)of disagreement.
This isn't just any "something."
Cut the crap?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)who was alerted on, it makes them ignorant and look very stupid. That individual doesn't agree from a learned point of view, just a knee jerk white point of view when confronted with the truth about the HUGE WHITE culpability and responsibility for the forced bondage and murder of millions of Africans from many areas of the continent. 99.999% of the responsibility (post #164) based on true facts of history, no RW revisionism or white privilege coloring(forgive the pun) the truth. The one alerted on? Doesn't know jack about history. I do. Nothing racist in slapping that type of ignorance into the dirt.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)RW revisionist history has struck home. Geez...."Destruction of Black Civilization", had very little to do with the tribal groups selling each other to the white slave trader. The Arabs were hugely involved in the slave trade,(the Africans captured if not muslim were heathen-non believers who to them were not worthy of human respect, Portuguese, Dutch, British, French, and american slave traders did 99.999 of capture, bringing to the coast for trans-atlantic shipping, responsible for up to 12 millions deaths during the 'Middle Passage' and the brutality on the slave plantations in america and elsewhere. But evidently that doesn't matter to a lot here who know nothing of THEIR real culpability, historically speaking, of the perpetuation of human bondage and the racist problems faced by this country alone in the 21st century......just had to get that truth off my chest to the 'enlightened' ones here.. Here at DU...has opened my eyes and strengthened my awareness of just how deeply people are immersed in their fallacious historical knowledge
jwirr
(39,215 posts)to the slavers who brought them over here to sell. I think that a lot of people think that our slave ships went over there and ran off into the wilds to catch as many natives as they could. Wrong - there were wars between tribes and many of the slaves were prisoners captured during these wars and sold to the slavers in the ships.
That does not absolve those in our country who allowed the slave system in the first place.
B2G
(9,766 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)you read more about Slavery in America.
Hopefully, you will grow beyond, "But they had a hand in it, too!"
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)And I doubt the poster has any interest in learning about it.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)perhaps if this had been posted last month or next month, it would be different; but, when I get a hide for responding that a DUer's response showed my argument went completely over his/her head (http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=428974) ... one can't be to careful.
randys1
(16,286 posts)fight another day and be very careful.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)They were not alert worthy however.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)As one juror said: we cannot just hide the truth if we don't like it.
There is much written about the slave trade, and that is part of it.
BainsBane
(53,035 posts)Waring tribes traded captives. They were not the same people or tribe and often spoke different languages. Moreover, they were not the ones that reaped tremendous profit from the slave trade. That was Europeans.
Slavery had existed in North African and Sub-Saharan African before the Transatlantic trade and Atlantic Slavery. The institution was very different from slaver as it developed in the Americas. It was not permanent or racial, and not nearly so brutal.
Your point that responsibility for slavery falls upon Africans blames those who suffered from it.
B2G
(9,766 posts)I abhor slavery.
But now it's racist to acknowledge history? African-Americans didn't just suddenly become slaves when they showed up on our shores.
***********************************************************************
African participation in the slave trade
Africans played a direct role in the slave trade, selling their captives or prisoners of war to European buyers.[21] The prisoners and captives who were sold were usually from neighbouring or enemy ethnic groups.[9] These captive slaves were considered "other", not part of the people of the ethnic group or "tribe" ; African kings held no particular loyalty to them. Sometimes criminals would be sold so that they could no longer commit crimes in that area. Most other slaves were obtained from kidnappings, or through raids that occurred at gunpoint through joint ventures with the Europeans.[21] But some African kings refused to sell any of their captives or criminals. King Jaja of Opobo, a former slave, refused to do business with the slavers completely. However, Shahadah notes that with the rise of a large commercial slave trade driven by European needs, enslaving enemies became less a consequence of war, and more and more a reason to go to war.[9]
European participation in the slave trade
Although Europeans were the market for slaves, Europeans rarely entered the interior of Africa, due to fear of disease and fierce African resistance.[50] The enslaved people would be brought to coastal outposts where they would be traded for goods. Enslavement became a major by-product of internal wars in Africa as nation states expanded through military conflicts, in many cases through deliberate sponsorship of benefiting Western European nations.[citation needed] During such periods of rapid state formation or expansion (Asante and Dahomey being good examples), slavery formed an important element of political life which the Europeans exploited: as Queen Sara's plea to the Portuguese courts revealed, the system became "sell to the Europeans or be sold to the Europeans".[citation needed] In Africa, convicted criminals could be punished by enslavement, a punishment which became more prevalent as slavery became more lucrative. Since most of these nations did not have a prison system, convicts were often sold or used in the scattered local domestic slave market.[51]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade#African_participation_in_the_slave_trade
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)And a DU jury agreed
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)*loud* Why are they taxing tanning booths! Blacks do it too!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and couldn't get anything out (that would have allowed for my continued presence).
Thank you ... that will do!
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Unfortunately too many people are taking the low road here. I think you are a lightening rod for those who cannot figure out why Sanders has made no real inroads with the black community. This reminds me of the idiocy in corporate America- if you speak up about an issue at work- you shatter their illusion of perfection, and someone might actually have to ba accountable for fixing it. Can't have that.
The2ndWheel
(7,947 posts)But if you look at it in a more big picture continuum sort of way, it becomes more difficult to assign blame, because morality is not easy. Which makes it all much more relative and subjective, dependent on the context of time and place, and it's difficult for human beings to accept that. That's why we measure things, label things. It's easier to deal with.
We want some sort of control over a given situation. That control, that certainty, is elusive. But dammit if the sun doesn't rise in the east every morning. Even though, there is clearly no such thing as east, or west, and the sun is clearly not rising or setting. A year is based on how far we are from a star. What we think of as a year doesn't actually exist anywhere other than our minds. There's no such thing as July, the 9th of July, Thursday, or 1:30pm. It's easier to get up out of bed everyday if we focus on the parts rather than the whole.
Slavery is bad, which it is, except for those that benefited from it, which isn't only white people, even if they did benefit the most, at least in this country, in recent history. There's been slavery for a long time, even before Europeans started conquering the world. If we can at least blame someone, then it gives a sense of control. It's tough to blame some random African king from a few hundred years ago, when you don't live every day with the legacy of his particular role in the slave trade.
Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)like Storm Front eventually.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Liberal_Stalwart71
(20,450 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Anyone who's great grandmother was raped 3 times a week by their OWNER or their great grandfather was beaten to death by their OWNER for not bringing the water fast enough, might not be very patient with long winded explanations of why it is a complicated topic.
NOPE
Not a fucking thing complicated about it AT ALL
Was wrong, very wrong, and reparations, yes MONEY, is due.
and it is due NOW
Reter
(2,188 posts)I have heard that before, so I don't know if it's true or not. Could be. Could be not. When in doubt, leave it. Those jurors may have been sincere and not racists.
azmom
(5,208 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Coastal African heads of states were gradually brow-beaten into accepting the inevitable from the outsized and brutal forces of the Europeans. Africa in general resisted.
Clearly, the ideological weapons used to justify the slave trade reflected neither the reality nor the dynamics of African society. Africans, like all other peoples, had no particular liking for slavery. Slavery was generated and maintained by a specific system. While the revolts of black slaves during the Atlantic crossing and in America are well documented, there is much less awareness of the scale and diversity of resistance to slavery within Africa. Both to the Atlantic slave trade as such and to the slavery in Africa which it induced or aggravated.
One long neglected source is Lloyds List. It throws unexpected light on the rejection of the slave trade in the African coastal societies. It is packed full of details of damage to vessels insured by the famous London company from its foundation in 1689. The figures show that in more than 17% of cases, the damage was due to local rebellion or plundering in Africa. The perpetrators of these revolts were the slaves themselves, assisted by the coastal population. It is as if there were two separate interests at work: the interest of states that had allowed themselves to become incorporated in the slavery system, and the interest of free peoples who were under constant threat of enslavement and were moved to act in solidarity with those already reduced to slavery.
As for slavery within African society itself, everything appears to indicate that it grew in parallel with the Atlantic slave trade and was reinforced by it. It similarly gave rise to many forms of resistance: flight, open rebellion, and recourse to the protection afforded by religion (attested in both Islamic and Christian countries). In the Senegal valley, for example, the attempts by certain monarchs to enslave and sell their own subjects gave rise, at the end of the 17th century, to the Marabout war and the Toubenan movement (from the word tuub, meaning to convert to Islam). Its founder, Nasir al-Din, proclaimed that God does not permit kings to pillage, kill or enslave their peoples. He appointed them, on the contrary, to preserve their subjects and protect them from their enemies. Peoples were not made for kings, but kings for peoples.
Further south, in what is now Angola, the Kongo peoples invoked Christianity in the same way, both against the missionaries, who were compromised in the slave trade, and against the local powers. At the beginning of the 18th century a prophetess in her twenties, Kimpa Vita (also known as Doña Beatrice), turned the slave traders racist arguments on their head and began to preach that there are no Blacks or Whites in heaven and that Jesus Christ and other saints are black and come from the Congo. Similar appeals to religion are still a feature of demands for freedom and equality in various parts of Africa. Clearly, the slave trade was far from marginal. It is central to modern African history, and resistance to it engendered attitudes and practices that have persisted to the present day.
<snip>
B2G
(9,766 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)If you'd actually read that link, you'd see he's agreeing with me.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)to many here who cannot even begin to empathize with POC. You see it every day here lately.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Gates also highlights the role the chiefs and warlords had in slavery, which is just what everyone knows in studying the history of the slave trade. Unfortunately, he seemed to conclude from that this made them equally culpable, which is wrong. Also, a few kings were not "Africa", as the article that I linked to showed. The country itself resisted and several of those kings faced political unrest from their own citizens as a result.
He was writing an Op-Ed against reparations though, which some white people lunged at to support their own positions on responsibility for the entire slave trade on the European side.
(The NYT published letters from outstanding scholars to rebut Gates' conclusions. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/26/opinion/l26slavery.html)
Yes, it's a game here we see everyday. Infuriating.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)The debt is owed for the American Experience (unique to America) of Jim Crow. Don't you dare try and compare it to the colonial imposition in South Africa. The black people in South Africa were not imported goods.
Tahesi Coates would agree with me.
That's a stain on the soul of this country of which the impact continues today.
It's about Jim Crow.
Certainly - you would agree that Jim Crow is an American Experience? You should watch the PBS documentary The African Americans. Gates set up white Americans with the article you linked to - with a powerful sucker punch a few years later.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)six or one half dozen, you know?
B2G
(9,766 posts)Were ya been homie?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Here, have a coke.
Searching through a haystack is thirsty work.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)oh how I wish they were.
B2G
(9,766 posts)in the middle of an unprecedented epidemic is just crazy, I know.
You might also want to note the date on that post, in a sense of fairness, of course.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Right until you showed up.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)Feel free to leaf through.
I can only assume he hasn't shared it with Admin.
ibegurpard
(16,685 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)I love watching the maestro at work.
randys1
(16,286 posts)we here in America need to pay big time.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 18, 2015, 09:30 AM - Edit history (1)
know a damn thing of history. Destruction of Black Civilization..........has nothing to do with Africans. "Africans bear a huge responsibility for the slave trade". That's a point of view that has historical ignorance and possibly racism as it's basis. Man the stuff I've learned about so called liberals and progressives here at DU is the same I learned about liberals and progressives in the 60's. Hasn't changed just gotten slicker in wordage and worse. Please stop the insults.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Would you like a small history lesson on the subject?
heaven05
(18,124 posts)response #164 is all you need to understand about the historical ignorance this comment is steeped in. You should be banned from a liberal, progressive, I think, forum such as this. But you're not, so I would suggest you learn history first before making yourself look so ignorant concerning who is truly culpable in slave trading history. White privileged thinking does that I think. Naw I don't think, I know......
jwirr
(39,215 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)'Preface to a Twenty Volume Suicide Note', and Eldridge Cleaver's 'Soul On Ice'.
But, after being raised as an Air Force officer's son (very, very few black AF officers then), my best race education came
because I had a black roommate. We became good friends, double dated, as our girlfriends were buddies.
The small group of black students at my college hung out in our room. We sat up many evenings, talking race, politics and music.
I too feel great shame by the crimes committed by our white forefathers, and not only against Black People.
It continues today, against Blacks, Browns, Islamics, Asians, and Native Americans. There is still so far to go.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)when I think about it. It was that cruel.
Response to Hoyt (Reply #80)
Name removed Message auto-removed
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)And The Warmth of Other Suns - http://isabelwilkerson.com/the-book/
There's no "but Africans did it too!" there.
They can't. They are both an American Experience.
They might TRY to say "buuuuuuuuut South Africaaaaaaaaaa" - again - they are wrong.
Rwanda - different too.
Not even Brazil or Canada.
That's the next step on your journey.
Now if you want to read an interesting book about Africa - fiction - read Things Fall Apart by Chinua Achebe. Of course someone will try and say - "But why didn't he write it about Germany!!!!"
Cool op - thanks for sharing your experience.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)needed accountability and restitution for the horrific legacy of slavery.
MuseRider
(34,111 posts)and I continue those same sentiments.
I apologize. Even if my ancestors did not own slaves or condone slavery. It does not matter. What happened never ceases to amaze me in the depth of it's cruelty and the inability to see others as the same. How this could have happened and the reasons it did are not acceptable or understandable. Why we have not gotten any further with our relations makes no sense to me at all.
I wish there was more I could do.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Response to Ed Suspicious (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)When the coal mines in America started, children who could walk were put into the coal mines, once they could walk, they can carry two pieces of coal.
After slavery, the Brits tried Portugese and China as a substitute, that did not work as the conditions in the Caribbean was too hot for people of clear skinned. Then the British Raj was in India and Indians became indentured and sent to the Caribbean and Malaysia.
The conditions after slavery were not different for the Indians but by that time Anglican missionaries were going down to the Caribbean to convert the natives and it were the missionaries who reported to the UK that the indentured servants (Indians were treated poorly). Then the British Raj stopped sending Indians to the Caribbean unless living conditions were improved. I know this as am into politics and I was working on Walter Rodney's book on Indian Indentureship when he was killed.
The things that corporations do to enslave people is mind boggling! Now it is endless wars!
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)of! It is just mind boggling that a race feels that it can treat another race as cattle!
Slavery is the worst thing on earth and when you read books like Roots, you just cry and cry. Then you read another book about a white guy experiencing what it is to be black in America and you cry over and over again. You ask yourself, what gave a race to dehumanise another race.
And it comes full circle, the killings at that Church of 9 people who were stalwarts in their community and you ask your self why people are so racist. You cut me and cut you, we have the same blood. It is really sad
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)things like "I'm sorry for your loss." all the time. I'm sorry that Africans and later African Americans have been through hell. Why is that such an abhorrent concept for so many in this thread?
akbacchus_BC
(5,704 posts)You have a good heart and you show empathy, which is great. Rest assured, I admire your post but you are not responsible for your ancestors actions.
That's all! You are a nice person and thanks for the empathy
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)"In the speech, Francis noted that Latin American church leaders in the past had acknowledged that grave sins were committed against the native peoples of America in the name of God. St. John Paul II, for his part, apologized to the continents indigenous for the pain and suffering caused during the 500 years of the churchs presence in the Americas during a 1992 visit to the Dominican Republic."
philosslayer
(3,076 posts)"I'm sorry for your loss" means I'm sympathetic to what you've suffered
"I apologize for your loss" means I had something to do with it and am regretful.
redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)I learned that emancipating myself from the influence of the Catholic church.
The secular left has its own version of original sin.
JustAnotherGen
(31,828 posts)Kind of dispels some of what you got in response!
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)It might actually be very good for the economy: injecting billions of dollars into the hands of people who will be more likely to spend it.