Those that feel unions are of no value
I hope you enjoy the new work requirements.

They happily sign on to lawsuits because they're 'forced' to pay the unions when they refuse to join the unions but work in unionized shops, but simply won't understand that because they helped destroy unions, they end up being worked to death or until they're injured and useless, then simply fired and left to fend for themselves.

Scabs and morons.....

Moral suasion and nonviolent resistance were his strategies. With agitation, he hoped at first to shame slaveholders into repentance. By early 1842, Garrison had gone so far as to denounce the U.S. Constitution for its proslavery clauses as “a covenant with death and an agreement with hell.” He publicly burned a copy during one Fourth of July celebration, proclaiming:

“So perish all compromises with tyranny!”

http://www.independent.org/publications/tir/article.asp?issueID=20&articleID=236

He didn't think much of the confederate heritage of slavery either.

And letting the worn out and now useless worker live in chicken coops and die of hypothermia like they use to.

There are just so many exquisite tortures to visit yet again on workers now that capitalism has run amok.

Missouri tried to remove Child-Labor law legislation recently.

http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/7002/missouri_legislator_wants_to_increase_child_labor

I don't understand why the working class that vote Republican cannot SEE this!

Welfare queens, drug addicts living off your dime, free housing, etc. Gotta put those people to work!

But good grief. These people (i.e., the working class people who continually vote for Republicans) need to stop being stupid and figure things out for themselves. It's time. Well past time. There's been enough press over the fact that Fox News isn't "fair and balanced" for them to at least question what's going on.

I mean, use that grey matter between your ears and THINK! If it's not stupidity, then it's simply laziness. Neither one is acceptable.

I am totally infuriated at the number of young people who are not even registered to vote, and the ones whose parents vote Republican, and force their kids too. Lack of education is killing this country. It's the old saw, "too much education makes for democratic voters."

...but now I think it is almost always based on fear: fear of something, someone, or even a group. They are incredibly frightened people in my experience, and they feel the need to identify with people or groups that make them feel stronger than those they perceive as weak. In reality they are the weak ones - they have given up critical thinking for the comfort and safety that the illusion of strength gives them. Further, I think that Stockholm Syndrome offers some clues about those workers who parrot/mimic the political viewpoints of their often abusive corporate overlords. "The beatings (plant closings/layoffs) will continue until morale improves."

Many in my family have fallen prey to the GOP lies. I almost fell over the other day when a super right-wing relative said he liked Bernie Sanders. He followed up that statement with "I won't vote for him because he's a damned socialist, but I think the man is right about a lot of things. It's too bad." The cognitive dissonance people like that display is mind-blowing to me, but they don't even notice that they are doing it. To paraphrase the old anti-drug campaign slogan: "This is your brain. This is your brain on FOX News."

A fascinating book that really gets into the subject of the working class voting against their own best interests is Deer Hunting with Jesus by Joe Bageant. If you have not read it, I highly recommend it.

Your response is a very thoughtful one. Thank you.

I'll check out the book you've recommended at my first opportunity.

Obviously I have had many years to contemplate this, which is frightening in and of itself. Peace.

And this is never shown to them.

White working class voters are the only ones that vote for Republicans. All because they believe that government and the unions only help Blacks and Latinos.

What are you trying to say here? My post had NOTHING to do with racism.

I happen to know white, black and Latino voters who I would consider working class (just like me) that vote exclusively for Republicans.

We could have a progressive, European-style way of life. Bernie's ideas would already be in place except for one thing, racism. Any two bit politician can gin up opposition to single-payer health care, higher taxes on the wealthy, affordable tuition for college, simply by appealing to racism. Simply by saying, 'well Black people and Latinos would get the same benefits as Whites".

We cannot have a politically and economically progressive nation without changing public attitudes about race.

... about laboring six days and resting on the seventh?

Sure, Exodus 20 9 "Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work." (King James version)

Of course, that's one of many rules in that book that have been honored more in the breach than otherwise.

-- Mal

I thought the so-called 'good book' is supposed to be central to republican "family values".

RW fundamentalist 'Family Values'... what a steaming pile.

... revolves around the text of Deuteronomy 25 4, "Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn." (KJV)

Back in the bad old days, grain was threshed by yoking oxen to a capstan and having them march around in endless circles, which caused the milling stones to grind the grain. A certain amount would spill out, and those pesky oxen would eat it. Thrifty farmers wanted to keep this from happening, so they bound the mouths of the oxen, but the pesky nanny-state authors of Deuteronomy ruled against this.

Well, it happens there was a region in one of the poorer parts of France in the Middle Ages that was so poor, they didn't even have oxen to grind the grain, so they hooked up men to the capstan. And since the Good Book had no restriction about muzzling the men who treaded the grain, that was okay then.

-- Mal

Before you grind the grain you thresh it. Oxen were used to thresh the grain.

This wasn't just a "certain amount would spill out." This was a case of "Here's all the grain, let the oxen eat what they want as the oxen walk over it." It would be cruel to keep the oxen hungry as they walked over a lot of food if they were hungry; the consequence was that you'd feed them well before they threshed.

If you didn't have cattle do to the threshing, you were stuck with flailing the grain to thresh it. I think I'd rather clean chicken coops, thank you.

Humans, of course, would have trouble with eating the wheat they were threshing. There's nothing about letting the oxen take the wheat away with them. Perhaps chewing spring wheat is something most teeth can handle, but mature hard winter wheat is a different matter. I guess you could chew barley, but the gluten in the wheat makes it more chewing-gum like. That's fine until the bran starts to irritate your mouth. (If you're ever stuck for how to eat whole wheat, here's what used to be my easy, quick, cheap breakfast: take a thermos, put some wheat berries in it with a tablespoon or two of honey, fill with boiling water and close up for the night. Come morning, drain excess liquid, dump the wheat into a bowl, and eat. Eventually you'll find the right amounts of water and wheat to use to reduce the amount of honey you pour down the drain. No, just adding honey in the morning isn't the same.)

I imagine if one is hungry enough (and if the region in question were so poor it could not maintain oxen, one might conclude the people would be hungry enough), he'll put just about anything in his mouth to appease it. Unless, of course, his mouth is gagged so he can't.

IIRC, the anecdote is from Braudel's Structures of Everyday Life, but I'm shot if I remember if he mentioned if the area was a net exporter of grain. That would be a nice irony, wouldn't it?

In another tangent, it has been 30+ years since I read the book. Now, one of the questions that interests M Braudel in the work is how power was generated in the Middle Ages, and how those methods of power generation limited productivity. It may be that there were neither windmills nor water mills in the region, so that gristmills relied on muscle power, in this case supplied by peasants. The problem with that is that it would be hard to see why there would be a village/region where there was not sufficient running water to power a mill, but I suppose it is theoretically possible.

-- Mal

for sure

Up there with not coveting, lying, and adultery. Not to mention having no other gods.

Then again, if you don't keep the seventh day, it's not really OT legislation, is it? And who these days really rests the seventh day, any seventh day?

... about the Presbyterian Sabbath in Scotland in the early 18th century. A skeptic was tired out from the day's rigorous schedule (three church attendences, interspersed with family prayers, hymn-singing, and expostulation by the patriarch), he made so bold to complain, whereupon he was told to get used to it, because every day in Heaven would be exactly like that.

-- Mal

That would just give them an excuse to have a 6 day work week.

Little scotty kochmouth needs to get hauled away, introduced to a tall man with a sharp smile, and layed ignominiously in rotten forlorn ground eventually resurfaced for a dog park.

that endorsed turning it's back on unions to move into the new future. THIS IS THAT NEW FUTURE.

That administration you endorsed was the one that copped the more corporate friendly view...that many people foresaw as looking just like this.

You try to say nice liberal things Mr Reich, but don't play the game of ignorance of how it came to pass that people were pwnd on the game board that administration helped create.

Liberal-bashing threads are in GD rimaries.

He should have resigned over Nafta, but being that close to power intoxicated him.

If calling a person out for trying to act innocent and naive when they were an insider when the evil seeds were planted is an ad hominem paint me guilty

putting his finger in the air and following the wind. He was a Third Way sycophant in the '90's, so I look at him today with a great deal of skepticism and a sense of hypocrisy. I'd like to think he has seen how disastrous neoliberal policies have been and is trying to make amends...but I just don't know, we will always have wind.

Of course that ignores some of the logic of working for a factory or other company as this article from MSNBC points out.

The problem, of course, as Democratic lawmakers have pointed out, is that once weekend-free schedules are permissible, employers will very likely “strongly encourage” factory and mercantile workers to forgo time off altogether.

As Marquette University law professor Paul Secunda told The Nation, the idea “completely ignores the power dynamic in the workplace, where workers often have a proverbial gun to the head.”

He stumbled over it but am I wrong in thinking that this is on the Koch agenda?
The return of a 7-day workweek - that's what Jeb had in mind.

that milks it"s cows and milk's its tourists - SEVEN DAYS A WEEK. And so they don't care. All I can hope for is that Russ wins and lowers the hammer on the crooks that Scott has in place. And then Scott should be the first to swim from Two Rivers to Traverse City. And should he make it, go to a Michael Moore movie at a Michael Moore theater. The Bastard, Scott, that is. I used to vacation a t least once a year and sometimes twice since 1960. I don't go there anymore. Whatever did happen to Wisconsin? I cry.

You people in Wisconsin do need to work overtime, but it's not the way he wants you to.
You better get your act together. I can't even believe you re-elected this total asshole.
If you need to carry people to the voting booth on your back, that is what you need to do.

..would not be the people that re-elected that total asshole.

You might have heard also of Snyder here in MI. ecchhh

rather than saying that the people here in Wisconsin voted for Walker.

It happens even in the bluest of states as here in Massachusetts we have been cursed with Romney, Scott Brown and now Charlie Baker. I wasn't a resident of the state when Romney was governor, but a very uninspiring candidate ran against both Brown and Baker, and now we're stuck with Baker. Obviously we didn't do enough to avoid that.

Donations, lawn sign, bumper sticker, trying to get out the message out at every opportunity, even these aren't enough, and I'm slammed with trying to make a living so there's only so much time and money. Perhaps if the Michigan Democratic Party hadn't been so seemingly clueless the last 12 years, more would have been inspired, I just don't know. But I do know this: more needs to be done.

When it comes to Bernie, I will be going the extra mile. And I damn sure will do that whenever the MDP gives me a good gubernatorial candidate to get behind.

How many times do they have to be reminded of this? Until they have nothing left?

Oh decisions, decisions.

This is the right-wing agenda for the nation.

.

Even if the hours are shorter, the mind needs a rest to function well!

... so you'll have to pay me for that day even if I don't show up.

all these duly ELECTED politicians had the majority votes to be able to really hate on their constituencies. Problem is, many of them don't, can't, because of repugthuglican stupidity, understand they have been shat upon, big time by their own duly ELECTED 'leaders'. I don't feel sorry for them. The innocent people in all this I feel for.....big time

Slaves require a minimal level of maintenance and support. And then there's the problem with what to do with them when they're too old to work productively.

Wage-slavery is so much better, because it relieves the plutocrat from even minimal responsibility for his workers.

-- Mal

As i type this i am at the VA hospital where they are about to take a little blood. (Well if i had it my way i'd not be letting them even borrow it much less keep it).

When will people learn? I don't get it...

Better get while the getting is good monarchs.

Wisconsin Repukes and the Koch bro's just want the American Can-do spirit to reach its full potential. That damn 40 hr. week , 5 day week (and probably a lot of silly work safety regulations) are smothering the American workman/workwoman. Let them work, work, work and make more money (min. wage - what's that) and get their lazy asses off the couch. And while your at it , what about the kid's?


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The collective mind of Wisconsin is running to the opposite of what it was.

Couldn't find this in dictionary.com. Please teach me.

evil, hate-filled wastes of skin and oxygen, each and every one of them.

Jeb Bush and Scott Walker are essentially saying "Helloooo, sailor!" to one another.

What we need is more paid time off.

Workers in France get a government-mandated five weeks off/year with pay. Why can't we have that here?

or ANY hours for that matter...

why aren't you given the choice now of working more hours? Sounds like you don't have employment or employment that pays enough. And what makes you think given the 6 day work week even by choice will not give the power to the employer to fire anyone not willing to work 6 to 7 days a week? If you are truly a worker not an owner, THINK!

it must be nice to be you though, you got yours - right, big frog?

I'm 75 years old, I work 2 jobs to meet basic bills, no dental, no medical, I fear every day my car might break down (there is no money to fix it). But I understand your feeling

sure the neighbors don't appreciate - especially early in the morning.

I guess when I have an "extra" $400 I'll get it fixed.

Good luck to you...

seeing as how he thinks we should work longer hours.

My last schedule gave me a Monday off while the following week I got Thursday off so I worked 9 days between days off. My boss just the other day asked me if I'd like to work 6 days a week all the time. I said no so he gave me 4 days off per week. Then there's the close then open the next day shifts. This means 7 hours between shifts resulting in very little sleep. Then there's the extending of shifts when a co-worker doesn't show up resulting in a 13 hour day with no break.

Need to stay away from that place.

These practices are not peculiar to my work place. I've experienced similar treatment at other restaurants. There is a firm belief labor laws do not apply to restaurants in particular, breaks or following posted schedules.

until they change their policy.

These are awful working conditions.

But this is not peculiar to OB, it's pretty much industry wide. Labor is treated very poorly from Arby's to what ever place ends in Z. I had a boss tell me I'm off when he decides I'm off what ever the schedule says. I got real pissed and asked when his power over me ended. 4? 5? 6? Tomorrow? When? He muttered something about business decision and I went home as I had completed my duties. It's crazy bad.

"Current Wisconsin law requires employers who own or operate factories or retail stores to give their workers at least 24 consecutive hours off every seven days. Under Grothman and Born's proposal, workers could volunteer to work seven straight days without a rest day."

The counter-argument:
"But Democrats and labor leaders insisted bosses would use the bill to force their employees to work longer and effectively erase the weekend."

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/gop-lawmakers-propose-allowing-7-day-work-week-in-wisconsin-b99182532z1-239830241.html

The important question: is it true that the bill would ALLOW employers to DEMAND WORKERS...? Really - is it true?

There is enough fear-mongering going on in the world without us manufacturing it here.

I choose not to live in fear...

is that current WI law requires 1 day off per week, and they want to eliminate that requirement.

You're a libertarian.

I'll stampede by myself - if you don't mind!

with hints of discipline or termination if not obeyed.

Nice try.

This bill, if passed, would quite easily allow employers to replace workers for refusing to work all seven days of the week.

This reader post on the jsonline site puts it better than I could:

and the only ones who get busted are rare exceptions. When you hear about employers getting busted for violations, they represent just the tip of the iceberg. In my town, there was recently a labor dept effort to look for problems, and almost every restaurant they investigated had problems - a few minor things, errors and such, but mostly serious, deliberate problems regarding overtime (no OT pay for 60+hr workweeks), not paying payroll taxes, and paying below the minimum wage. And that was just a random sampling of a couple dozen employers. Where are all the lawyers lining up to help workers now?

Why would providing employers even MORE wiggle room to take advantage of workers make it any different?

Workers are getting more and more powerless in this country and this is just another push down the slippery slope.

This isn't a cash cow for lawyers waiting to happen, let alone something that they would jump at helping pro bono (I mean, wtf?). This is just one more way to take advantage of those with little choice or power.

I'll grant you that I could be wrong about WI lawyers willingness to take on these cases.

Will there be some who will try to coerce or take advantage of their workers? Sure - you already have it your town. but it won't be nearly everyone. And considering the high-profile nature of this new law, you'd think that violators would be easily identified and punished quickly.

And like I alluded to previously, I'm guessing there are lots of folks these days - especially those who are younger - who would welcome the chance for additional income...

is because the middle class hasn't had a real raise, when adjusted for inflation, in 30 years.

I've read your posts in this thread and let me tell you something, as someone who has been working for wages for over 40 years;

The owners of companies, with a few exceptions, don't give a fuck about you or I individually.

There are certainly exceptions, but large corporations tend to look at their employees, particularly rank-and-file factory workers, as COMPLETELY replaceable. And the reason the American worker will take this crap, once again, allowing him/herself to be bent over and fucked in the ass, is because they have no choice. As a group, the US Labor force has allowed the anti-unionists to spread their propaganda, believed every lie filled word of it to the point that even when the company is all for it, votes to allow union representation fail (See the recent VW/Chattanooga vote)

I have said this before and I will say it again and again...

PROFIT TRUMPS THE PUBLIC GOOD IN THIS COUNTRY.

If it is profitable to screw over your employees and even your town, then American business will do it. If it is profitable to even screw over your customer base, American business will do it.

If it is profitable to screw over the environment, or the water supply, or allow infrastructure of all types to deteriorate, American business will do it.

"The American Way" has come to mean cheap labor, reduced collective bargaining and profits for those at the top, fuck you fuck you fuck youifyoudon'tlikeit.

Your responses in this thread indicate you are someone who just has no real idea what it means to work for a decent wage, with decent benefits and decent time off. the 40 hour week will be a distant memory if we are not careful.

If I am going to work 7 god damned days a week, I want the other 6 days to have a bump in pay.

Fuck that greedy asshole who wants all my time for nothing extra. Fuck him with his time clock.

you wrote:
"Your responses in this thread indicate you are someone who just has no real idea what it means to work for a decent wage, with decent benefits and decent time off."

It seems your perception skills need to be tweaked a bit. Except for a stint in the military, I've been an hourly worker for the last 35+ years.

Something one of my bosses told me a long time ago has stuck with me "we ask that you put in a days work for a days pay". That seemed reasonable to me.

That you are angry about "the way things are" comes across loud and clear; but for me that is no way to live.

Personally, I don't give a shit if my company cares about me or not. I don't care if that look at me as another exploitable peon. This isn't a love affair - it's a fucking job!

All I care is that I get paid for a days work. And the fact of the matter is, I want my company to do as well as possible - if profits are up - great! That's job security - it's a fucking no-brainer.

And the fact of the matter too, is our business is down - which means no overtime. If I could put in another 8 -12 hours OT I'd jump at it.

Just my own opinion - I don't expect anyone to agree with it...

and the once vibrant middle class.

"A days pay for a days work" is COMPLETELY reasonable.

The problem is the worker, because of the reduction in union membership in my lifetime, has little to no say in what constitutes a "days pay". THAT'S the problem.

Most people can't really vote with their feet, unfortunately.

I'm a Truck Driver and I finally now have the ability to turn down crappy job offers and be assured that I will get only the best offers, should I persue them. But even I see the writing on the wall for the industry I have aligned myself with for the better part of 30 years of my life.

Please don't for a moment think I am moaning about my lot in life. I chose this path and have no one to blame for my situation, which, BTW, is nowhere close to dire. I do just fine. Just bought a new (well, 06 but looks new) car, live in a comfortable house with air conditioning, etc.

Please accept my apology for the tone earlier. I'm sure you have plenty of life experience.

just in back wages last year and only for laws subject to the Wage & Hour division?

$240,000,000. And the link shows the increase in enforcement since 2009.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/statistics/

Doesn't count OSHA, doesn't count EEOC, doesn't count private litigation or state enforcement of labor laws.

Well over a billion a year between them.

You're only as powerless as you think you are.

so are you anti-union also? ...this should be interesting....

I like it when I have choices - don't you?

on a non-progressive website.

I guess if that is what it remains to be - sure, whats the point of hanging around?

I have yet to see a cogent reply on this tread that is not based in fear of "the boss".

I choose not to live that way...

the real goal here is to keep staffing really low.....it would not be long before this was expected, and people would feel the need to "volunteer" or lose their job

I find myself continually in the situation described by Mark Twain, of wondering if certain positions are a result of mendacity or stupidity.

-- Mal

but how long will it take to become from volunteer to quietly be a requirement or be quietly let go? Are you that unable to reason this out? Just look at past history. Are you another frog having the heat gradually turned up on you so you don't notice what is happening?

have no effective power in the employee/employer relationship (in a scab shop)?

"Thou keep holy the Sabbath day"?

Jesus is just a convenient tool to keep the peons in line.

I'd sue and claim it as a violation of my religious freedom

I have almost no sympathy for the people of Wisconsin. They reelected this guy... you get what you vote for.

Overtime is 1.5x Hourly Wage /hour
Doubletime is 2x Hourly Wage/hour

From the department of industrial relations:

1.One and one-half times the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of eight hours up to and including 12 hours in any workday, and for the first eight hours worked on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek; and

2.Double the employee's regular rate of pay for all hours worked in excess of 12 hours in any workday and for all hours worked in excess of eight on the seventh consecutive day of work in a workweek.

because usually, by the 7th day you've already worked 40 Hrs. for the week,
and the 7th was double time.

sadly, californians screwed up several times when voting for governor too...thankfully, we've pulled out of it!

To make sure they are always satisfied with their jobs and not buy any goods or services from unapproved companies.

Anything short of this is blasphemy against the job creators!!1!

... to hook them up to portable catheters and IVs. No more of this eating and eliminating stuff.

We still need to work on sleep, although we've done a good job of starving people of that so far. But there is still progress to be made!

-- Mal

them from labor law in order not to "strangle" the new economy, that was the key to the destruction of the middle class. All the incoming great new jobs that were being created could be contracted under exploitative conditions, while the traditional jobs encrusted with labor law protections melted away.

I believe most of this was done under Clinton to cultivate the first tech bubble. A lot of the super rich got richer, and according to Reaganomics / Third Way thinking, some money would trickle down to provide the workers with a livelihood.

The outrage is that even after the period of "trying to foster the new enonomy and promote innovation" was over, labor laws were not restored. Even Democrtic Presidents with Democratic majority legislatures were sly about not addressing the tech sector exceptions baked into labor law. This sector is a tremendously important component of the middle class. Yet the way our laws are written, this could eventually be turned into a low paid quasi-slave Wal-mart class of data entry clerks. And that worker class would be International, their wages levelled by TPP.

I've seen a few weak attempts of tech workers to unionize, but it's hard to get on the same page when some can and do make millions in windfall by getting their start-up funded or selling their start-up to a larger company. Google is particularly proud of its commitment to pay inequity.

Exceptions to labor law that take out the major sectors of the US economy are what turned the US into an Oligarchy over the last 30 years.

Maybe that's what Jeb Bush meant when he said Americans should work more.

with a title of "Working Through the Weekend"...

Walker and friends need to be served notice that they are going to be put out...

It will start when Russ Feingold takes back his Senate seat in 2016!

Thanks for the thread G_j.

that will never come to fruition.

At least then people got Sundays off and some "progressive" employers had slightly shorter Saturday hours.

Fighting Bob is turning in his grave.