Luke, the court has determined that the mother has undue influence ... but, yeah ... jailing the kids for refusing to have a relationship with an absent parent is f'ING nuts.

Kids are a product of their environment. If your kids don't like you, YOU are the problem, not them. (Exception: puberty.)

...although that may be true in this case, it's not always that way. It's just not that hard for one parent to poison children against the other parent. People who use their children as pawns because they hate each other isn't uncommon.

to feel better toward their father, or want to have a healthy relationship with him.
And maybe, just maybe, it was not a good idea for him to accept a job in another country if his wife didn't want to move there.

Who, by the way, went to Israel after the hearing.
So, these children are not allowed to see their mother, their father is in Israel, and they are separated from each other and locked up in a juvenile facility.
I find this ridiculous.

who jumped from a high floor of a building in Spain with his young child. The child died, and the scumbag lived. It may have been two children. The devil is no stranger to tugs of hate.

I don't know all the details in this case and it may be 100% on the father. I just don't believe it's true to say that if your kids hate you it's always your fault.

him. And he went to Israel for work right after the hearing while his kids are locked up for refusing to have lunch with him.

from the time she was 11 until she got out of high school. Now that she's almost 30, we're best friends. You certainly can't generalize anything when talking about teenagers.

the harm they are doing to their children.

The impression I had was that the authorities didn't find the children' testimony about the violence shown to their mother, plausible. You'd have to hear them and be familiar with the professionals' findings about them to be able to judge. I suspect the judge is making the best of a bad job for the sake of the children as much as the parents; which is an unusual thing for me to say, as I tend to have a low opinion of judges.

Normally, you put them to preside over a case involving business, money, worldly affairs of a similar nature, and their wisdom is so searching and profound you'd be reduced to tears of wonder that human beings could be blessed with such awe-inspiring sense. But put them over an affair with a primarily very human dimension and many wouldn't have a clue. You'd be better reefing in the first person you saw in the street for a decision.

If you are wondering why the world is upside down, the law provides a good cameo. It is one of the most worldly professions (particularly, barristers and judges), yet its proponents would be among the least sensitive to justice and the common good. No connection, of course.... but they figure heavily in the ranks of politicians.

Then again, the good lawyers shine out 'like a good deed in a naughtie worlde'.

I see it all the time in my practice. People who exploit their children for revenge are the worst sort of people.

there is more (or less) to this story. Generally you have to break a law to end up detained.

There could be Parental Alienation in the works.

There could be abuse of the custodial parent.

There could a cold distant non custodial parent.

I'm always hesitant to just give ideas/thoughts on domestic/family law cases because there's always fives sides when there are children involved.

His Side
Her Side
The Children
The Attorneys' fees
The truth

These poor kids though. They didn't ask to be in the middle of this chaos.

<snip>

But Henry Baskin, a well-respected family law attorney who has practiced in Metro Detroit for five decades, said people should not be quick to second-guess Gorcyca.

"This is not the usual event in a case, however it may have been the only thing she can do to enforce the parenting order," Baskin said. "I'm not certain, between the ex-husband and ex-wife, is it getting to the point where it's volatile? Maybe she is protecting the children from the harm caused between these two people."

Now that Gorcyca has taken the action of placing the children in county custody, it's time for the parents to come forward and agree to do what the judge wants to satisfy the parenting time order, Baskin said.

"I find the wrong people may be in jail. One of the parents belongs in Children's Village," he said.
<snip>

Who as a person outside this case really understands something this ugly? The court actually seems to feel the mother is brainwashing the kids... how should a court act in response to that if it's true?

Throwing them into a juvenile detention facility is all kinds of wrong.

this whole thing sounds like a hot mess.

1) the father maybe violent

2) the mother might be a control freak

3) the judge overstepped her bounds by ordering the kids held in a "juvie" hall

4) both lawyers seem to be in something beyond their pay grade.

5) the whole thing seems a perfect storm of stupidity by all parties included.

Either the judge needs to be removed from the bench, or there is more going on here than we have been told in this story.

All three children wanting to stay away from the father is a red flag. I tend to want to side with them and the mother.

What evidence did the judge have of the mom brainwashing the kids?

On Edit:

This is ominous -

"All three children have been involved in numerous counseling and therapy sessions to address family concerns, which included refusing to speak to or even look at their father, or touch food he had touched with his hands. The three were greatly influenced by their mother, according to court records."

Therefore, when people say, 'there's more here to the story', I'm like, 'what other stuff is material here that isn't part of the proceeding...? And if this material is subject to a seal, then that fact/order would be part of the proceeding's minutes, wouldn't it?'

depositions, motions, hearings, etc. I realized as I was finishing typing this post that you probably know more about case filings than I do so feel free to disregard liberally, no pun intended.

Not to mention in some cases, like this one, counselor/psych interviews with the kids that are almost certainly sealed that only the judge and perhaps the attorneys can see.

I think it is highly probable that both parents are pieces of garbage. The mother has done some very screwed up things to the kids psychologically and I think it is likely the father was physically abusive to the mother.

utter despondency, not reacting to food their father had touched with a histrionic horror.

I wonder if both parents are 'sick'.

This is a local story for me .... so we have very heavy news coverage. It seems (seems vs I know) that the mother may have been engaged in alienating the children's affections/ attachment to their father (maybe) .... regardless of the bad behavior of one or both of the parents I cannot fathom what this idiot judge has done to those children.

Whatever these kids have been through .... Lisa Gorcyca has amplified the abuse and their trauma.

I question this judges humanity , not just her fitness to serve!

People can't even love their own children.

came back with the children.
They started divorce proceedings.
It doesn't surprise me if children feel resentment toward the father. Even if mother "brainwashed" them against their father, I fail to see how locking them up is going to make them feel better about their father.

Seems particularly cruel.

Last edited Thu Jul 9, 2015, 06:36 PM - Edit history (1)

toward their father?
They didn't commit any crimes. Not wanting to have lunch with their father is not a crime.

Sounds like an epic judiciary fuck-over.

Her husband, David Gorcyca has a lot of corruption and scandals underneath his combative sleeve. For those in SE MI, I believe the last name "Wendrow" sounds familiar?
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2014/10/31/wendrow-gorcyca-lawsuit/18211173/
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2014/11/06/jury-awards-wendrow-millions-oakland/18611789/

Defaming families and throwing out bizarre accustations seem to be a trait amongst this corrupt husband-wife duo. I believe Lisa Gorcyca, like her husband, is a power-tripping judge who uses the law as some form of twisted abuse towards people, or in this case, innocent children. I can personally say, seeing relatives go to Children's Village; that is not the place for kids WHO DID NOT COMMIT CRIMES to be! It's basically a mini jail where the juvies and violent mentally ill kids go to.

And may I add, both Lisa and David are staunch GOP types here in SE MI. It's quite clear that antipathy and egotism run in the bloods of repukes!

These kids need to be released from Children's Village, the father needs to get his ass back to the States to fix this mess, and Judge Gorcyca needs to be removed from the bench immediately and apologize for her stupidity and viciousness!

Like that judge who got busted for getting kickbacks for sending kids to a juvenile facility awhile back. Because this is so egregious. Those poor babies.

law or no law. This is a perfect example of law truly destroying people...and kids no less, ages 15, 10, 9. Juvenile Hall!!!!??????? Must be repugthuglican. My search engine turned up no political party affiliation. But reading about l.brook's patterson's(retired prosecutor) Oakland County, Michigan, any good confederate southern county in south of Mississippi would gladly incorporate it into their state. on edit: I guess she is repukelikan.

is a Republican and yes, L Brooks Patterson is Oakland County's blue-blooded stepchild who somehow keeps getting elected in our county. *sighs*

a male friend and his ex-wife have 5 daughters.

During the divorce proceeding, she fought hard to keep the kids from him. They went to court over and over and over about visitation with him getting falsely accused of child molestation etc.

It took 2 years to complete the divorce but the kids HATED Dad by then since he was already involved with another woman at that time. So the kids went to counseling for 6 months to try to unwind the damage (at his expense) before they'd agree to see him.

They came to my farm because it was a neutral place and not a public park in case of meltdowns. I have ponies and golf carts and fun stuff to do like fish in the creek etc. I stayed out of the way and they grilled and did whatever but it was obvious those girls now aged 8 - 15 yrs old were making no attempt to socialize or participate. Dad doggedly stuck with it for a solid year of weekends until one of the daughters was graduating from 8th grade and he wasn't given an invitation. Discovered they had hidden other events from him like his oldest going to prom, the youngest getting a major writing award at school etc.

So back to counseling for all of them for another 6 months. Weekly. At his expense. Back to court with the ex-wife to force her compliance...

He tried like crazy to "be their dad" but they simply wouldn't have it. The damage was done. He got re-married last year and none of his girls came even as he had paid for all them to be there and be in the wedding (it was a destination wedding in Hawaii and yes, they'd all been fitted for bridesmaids dresses). They simply never got on the plane.

I don't have any answers but its a pretty sad situation all around.



He doesn't even try to see them anymore. He says the door is always open. They know that but he doesn't even try.

I guess I posted my story as a cautionary tale that sometimes one parent will "lose" even if there's no fault on their part.

Heartbreaking yes but you don't lock up the kids.

mother is OK, and needs no attempts at corrective measures. Correct me if I'm wrong, but with such young children, it doesn't sound to me like a hard-time prison or borstal; more like the 'country-club' type, afforded to the wealthy with sufficient connections.

What do you think about the mother's role in all this?

She send 9 and 10 year old to "jail" because they wouldn't have lunch with their father.

I would feel justified in killing His Nibs while he was asleep. Even when such self-defence happens, it usually seems long overdue. Yet in the UK, in the past at least, they've been prosecuted as criminals.

And you know nothing about where the children have been put. It is nothing like a country club. It's a place for juvenile offenders.

suggested that there was likely to be much more to the case than appeared on the surface - suggesting to me that the testimonies given by the defendants just might not have been considered reliable at.all. But we don't know, one way or the other.

Anyway, they've been sent to a summer camp, which sounds a better solution. One thing's for sure. You people will see no possible wrong in the wife or the children. You've joined the gang. To me, the situation created for those children is unlikely to be akin to that of the abducted, young Cuban kid, Elian Gonzales, who had just lost his mother on the hazardous sea journey from Cuba, and of whom a British journalist remarked that he needed his father more than he needed American capitalism.

Imagine how terrified the nine year old feels, not even allowed to see her brother and sister.

A lot of children are raped in juvenile detention.

They were at Mandy's Place which is separate from the detention facilities.

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/07/10/jailed-kids/29964437/

A man can be a wife abuser, or a child molester, and seem like a perfectly nice, normal guy to his friends.

We took a young woman in a few years ago, who still experiences PTSD from life with her dad. I've literally picked her up off the floor when it's happened. She's been going to a good therapist who specializes in childhood survivors like her. She hasn't been able to confront or accuse her father, so to the rest of the world he's a fine, upstanding citizen. But I know the man under the nice-guy facade.

But let's assume your friend is fine, and it's the wife who is awful. That has nothing to do with this OP. The 15 year old son told the judge that he had WITNESSED his father assault his mother, and that's why he wants nothing to do with him. But because the man hadn't been found guilty of assault, the judge didn't care what the son had to say, and she put all three kids in juvenile detention.

That judge should be impeached.

And also agreed it has nothing to do with the OP. I guess I was just fascinated by the parental alienation aspect of the OP. I've never heard of it happening to the same degree that I'd witnessed before so i just put in my two cents.

My friend isn't a child abuser. The kids told the judge they were coached to say that about him.

And he's not a wife beater either. He's actually my BIL (my sisters husband) now. They met at my house when he had his kids here one day. They were friends for a couple years while he tried to work things out with his kids (he wasn't ready for a new relationship for a long while) and he really is a decent guy through and through. His divorce was just one of those awful, ugly events. His ex-wife didn't want the divorce and was so angry and hurt and lashing out. I don't like what she did with the kids but she's actually a good person as well even as she did such damage with her anger. I feel badly for both of them.

I'm so sorry about your young woman housemate. I think you've mentioned her before. You're doing angel's work with your TLC. I volunteer at the local women's shelter/rape crisis center and a mentor/support person like you can be transformative. It's very true that monsters live among us disguised as normal humans.

And here is the good news: since coming here 3 years ago, she's gotten her GED, her AA (just this month) and now she's been accepted to our flagship state university (which is close enough that she can continue to live with us.) She also succeeded in getting something called a "dependency override" for her FAFSA forms, which meant she didn't have to submit any financial info from her worthless parents, and could apply as an independent student. She hasn't gotten the financial aid award yet, but has been verbally told that with her low-income status, she'll get enough grants to cover her tuition.

Yay for the Nanny State of Washington! We have helped, yes, but so has everyone else with the tax-supported programs that have helped her, including the program for high-school dropouts that paid her tuition at the community college, and expanded Medicaid.

I am just so thrilled for her.



Thanks for your interest.

Of course she has as well. It's amazing how love can transform people.

Big hugs to both of you.

but she deserves 99% of the credit. She amazes me every day with her determination and her grace.

. . .

According to a court transcript of the hearing, Gorcyca told the Bloomfield Hills family that "you need to do a research program on Charlie Manson and the cult that he has. Your behavior in the halls with me months ago, your behavior in court, your behavior back there is unlike any I've seen in 46,000 cases."

. . . .

Even the children's attorneys don't support keeping the children away from their father.

transcript the kids were only appointed attorneys that day.

that judge is on a power trip. She compared the kids to the Manson family. Threatened them. told them she would order them to be in juvie until they graduated high school. Made them look their dad in the eyes and say they would have a relationship with him, and then her in the eyes. If they don't do every little thing to HER satisfaction, they will stay in juvie until they graduate high school. Claims she wanted to do this months ago, but the mother and father objected. Said these were the worst kids in all of her 46,000 cases.
The mother did try to get them to see their Dad, they refuse to.

WTF, get her ass off the bench, She needs to be investigated.

Here is what she told a 9 year old. I mean, this is a 9 year old child, not a criminal.

“God gave you a brain. He expects you to use it. You are not your big, defiant brother who’s living in jail. Do you want to live in jail?”

http://www.dailytribune.com/general-news/20150708/judge-compares-bloomfield-hills-children-to-charles-manson-sends-them-to-childrens-village-for-refusing-to-speak-with-father

Did my father beat my mother up? Yes, multiple times.

Did my father beat my older sister up? Yes, multiple times.

Did my father beat me (next one down) up? Yes, quite a few times.

He was never charged with any offence. So, apparently, it didn't happen.



When the arsehole died, I didn't attend the funeral.

I regret it now.

I would have liked to have danced on his grave.

Are MI judges elected or appointed?

This is just crazy.

And less Satan ...

I wasn't thrown in jail, but I had to spend every other weekend court ordered with the man who almost killed my mother in front of us kids and abused the shit out of me.

So, this is a soft spot for me.

But the almost two weeks without him in my life were much better after my mother escaped him. She worked her fingers to the bone to support us for a few years on her own, because that rat bastard wouldn't pay the child support.

But oh, poor him. He deserved to see us every other fucking weekend.

He died when he was 46, haven't missed him a day since.

My mother re-married and that is the man who I consider my father, from the age of 13-14 on. He died suddenly three years ago! I still miss him every single day!

So, yes, this thread hit a real sore spot with me.

Thank you for the acknowledgment. Really appreciate it.

Hating your parents is now punishable by judges?!

That judge needs to be thrown in jail herself.