It matters not to me if someone wants to burn their own flag.

Mine is put out on holidays and 9/11.

It does bother me sometimes when I see a business flying a really old tattered flag - buy a new one dammit!

With the obvious correllary to the current flap about flags, I don't really care is some individual wishes to fly a REbel flag of some sort. Go for it, free speech.

But no flag associated with the Confederacy should fly over any public or government building in this country, ever. Period. End of story.

One is a historically irrefutable symbol of hate and slavery, the other not so much.

Just ask a German.

...especially in the Middle East.

Well done sir.

The First Amendment doesn't just protect forms of expression that I approve of or like.

I wouldn't waste my money.

If they are having a barbeque and nothing else to cook hotdogs over, I would leave the party.

Symbols are important. I know a lot of older people who would be very angry to see the flag burned. I respect them.

I know people who feel that burning the symbol is an important statement. I respect them.

And that the attention they draw is generally counterproductive to whatever their cause happens to be.

But they are certainly free to do it, the First Amendment doesn't prevent you from making a fool of yourself.

and i honestly don't understand getting in a twist about it.

CIA gave people LSD and covered up their mistakes by lying and worse.

Or whrn the government decided that lynching is not a civil rights violation.

Or when the federal government decided that intentionally infecting Black men with syphillis was just fine.

Or when the US Army viewed Black soldiers as undeserving of their heroic medals for their sacrifices and heroic actions on the field of battle.

Or when people of this free country are treated as if they are a criminal action by the police for merely standing in a crowd to voice their criticisms of the government. See Scott Olson.

Or when students and young Americans are shot dead and wounded while merely walking on a college campus and there is little done to find the cause or reason for that action.

I could go on.

And I have lost close relatives who dided fighting on the field of battle for a person to have a right to burn any flag he/she chooses.

mentioned above. They were protesting the Vietnam War and the MIC that uses the flag as a carrot before the horse to encourage young men to enlist (or worse even drafted them) in the guise of fighting for our freedoms. They already had attention.

They were making a clear statement which many of us agreed with but did not go that far to illustrate. Their statement was that in the name of that flag we were waging an unjust war. And we were not going to do that anymore. It was a clear statement of lose of trust in our government. Enough. The problem was the message was ignored and the discussion was deflected from the war to the flag. Now we are living in the era of eternal war ME style and still under that same flag and the same guise.

He was the plaintiff in the flag burning case.

We supported his right to burn the flag. I still do.

I always thought it was that one.

Don't care if it's not a stolen flag or within reason avoided potential hazardous in lighting the fire but the symbolism stuff doesn't mean much at all if anything. What matters to me is anything at all unjust unethical, dishonest, inhumane, etc must be condemned & certainly not supported so also saying I wouldn't be more loyal to the country over the corrupt acts. I look at it the same way as people on the street, if one is being unfair, bullying, intimated, lying with a team of bullies I wouldn't side with them over the poor victim. Not to mention taking the bully's version of events as the true story and poor victim was a rotten bad guy based on information made up by the bullies to support the attack. This is what is important to me, the flag burned, changed colors or whatever doesn't change facts on the ground so before getting into having a right to do, sure got a lot of people in government with the right to do something that isn't right.

I feel nothing watching someone burn a piece of fabric.

It's weird to ask if they have a right to do that. It's just a piece of cloth. What it stands for is more important than the thing itself. And what it stands for is freedom of expression & disagreement. Do they have a right to that?

especially if the goal is winning people over to your point of view. Protected speech though it may be, it's counterproductive as an expression of protest.

But I defend their right to be such

It is, when done in a "dignified, respectful" fashion, usually by groups like the Scouts or American Legion:

than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled."

- Rush, Territories

and no one is bleeding, who gives a shit?

personal adornment, or using it as an advertisement for commerce.

When people use words like "desecrate" to describe damaging or destroying any object, you know that line has been crossed.

When the rethugs take power and start waving the flag, be afraid - they want you to play along and not make waves when they start yet another war that results in toddlers being maimed on the other side of the planet.

As long as they own the particular flag they're burning, why should anyone else care?

... But beyond that just someone to be ignored.

Burning the flag is counterproductive (to put it mildly) if you are trying to win a majority to your point of view.

Yes, they have the right. Yes, it's free expression. And as a member of the invisible impoverished class, the flag is of VERY little importance to me, because the government it represents views me and everyone like me as cockroaches.

of fabric (or whatever they are made from these days)

Frequently they have good reason.

Do you think our nation does no wrong?

who represented the government abuse of power, wrapped themselves in the flag as a show of fake patriotism and authority to show that they were the only true Americans. Just as they do today, the government ordered flag-wearing American police and military to beat and kill, arrest and jail citizens for speaking out against them and calling attention to their oppressive policies.

I burned a few flags back in the day. I'd do it again because the flag is the first symbol of government power and its authority, while the Constitution is the true and undeniable power and authority of We the People.

The flag is just a symbol, so I am not particularly attached to it.

...in that the symbolism to the people doing the burning is usually quite different than the symbolism of the act to the people seeing it.

I've heard reasons from a few people as to their reasons -- in two cases from talking to them, several others via interviews in print or on radio (Pacifica and/or college stations, who gave them time to explain themselves) -- from disaffected veterans to a "red bandanna wearing, thrust-fist-in-the-air-to-salute-THE-REVOLUTION" college-campus radical (seriously, the guy was a walking stereotype). Anecdotal evidence, not empirical, but it's what I have to work with.

The interview with the vet was one that I could agree with his reasons, if not his method for expressing them: a very thorough listing of things that the flag had meant to him, that he had seen systematically betrayed both on a personal and policy level, and he regarded it at the proper means of disposal for a flag that had become irreparably soiled. The others tended to go down a litany of wrongs (many legitimate, but sometimes with CT mixed in), but dismissed the fact that it didn't symbolize those things for everyone and weren't too clear on how burning a flag would help bring about their goals. And one guy whose main reason IMO was as a middle-finger to the College Republicans.

They all had reasons, of varying quality, thoughtfulness, and legitimacy, but none of them -- either through myopia or just not giving a shit -- recognized that the message they sent was not the message that was received by everyone else. As symbolism and messaging, what they did was little more than the political equivalent of masturbating in public. It drove people away people who might have joined or at least cooperated with them to achieve at least some of their goals.


Political messaging is a lot like a pie fight. Unless you take the trouble to aim carefully, you can miss your target and hit someone who just happens to be standing nearby. Or even if you hit your target, it can "splash" onto other people. And before you know it, everybody's throwing pies.

I don't like it.

Assuming that they first bought the flag, it was probably also made in China, so they're likely adding to the trade deficit.

The country has gone to shit over the last few years anyway, so with all the issues that are bringing it down (No, those issues aren't, but the one's I'm thinking about are. Pay attention!), the least of my concerns are people burning the new flag of the Roman Empire.

. . .if they really want to make a statement. Burning it is so un-original.

Too many shitheads use the American flag to rally people to atrocity for me to get mad when someone mistreats it.

Flag burning is free speech. I have better things to do than throw a hissy fit when someone mistreats a piece of cloth.

Whether confronting the realities of our history and present while celebrating free speech or retiring Old Glory when she can no longer fly with pride; both are important duties.

https://www.vfw.org/Flag/

FLAG DISPOSAL:
1. The flag should be folded in its customary manner.
2. It is important that the fire be fairly large and of sufficient intensity to ensure complete burning of the flag.
3. Place the flag on the fire.
4. The individual(s) can come to attention, salute the flag, recite the Pledge of Allegiance and have a brief period of silent reflection.
5. After the flag is completely consumed, the fire should then be safely extinguished and the ashes buried.
6. Please make sure you are conforming to local/state fire codes or ordinances.

Freedom of speech. I don't care, if they are so upset that setting a piece of cotton or polyester on fire makes them feel better, more power to them.

It's what you do. This is part of what is being implied when it is burned in protest, that this flag has been sullied and must be retired. The act itself is obviously not heinous, as it is the the regulation way to dispose of an aged or sullied colors.

because it was a stupid tactic that inspired knee jerk false patriotism in knee jerk jerks and that was not going to help us fight against the war.

These days I think most people who burn the flag do so offshore.

However, it should be protected as free expression. The flag isn't a demigod, it's a piece of cloth.

It's still a monumentally stupid thing to do that isn't going to win anyone to one's side in a dispute.

... was that flags and oaths were idolatry. The sort of thing that bought you a ticket to hell.

I was one of those weird kids in school who didn't stand for the Pledge of Allegiance.

Never have felt much more than "whatever" about the U.S. flag, but will, when reasonable, stand in respect of others' deeply held beliefs.

Who has matches anymore ?

They might be idiots who burned a flag, or responsible, conscientious citizens who burned a flag.

And these days it's probably made in China anyway.

Flag worship and all the jingoism and brainless uber patriotism that go with it freaks me the eff out.

It's kind of an asinine statement, but then, it is a statement and as such speech protected by the 1st Amendment.

I'll add that while I think it's an asinine statement, I also think many people get way too attached to their symbols, often confusing them with the thing the symbols represent. Taking our symbols and our symbolic representations less seriously- or at least recognizing their inherent limitations- is a valuable mental exercise IMHO.

It is expressive conduct. I believe that free speech rights must be defended at all costs, so....

I am pretty sure that my attitude toward most flag-burners (which I would probably keep to myself) is that they are clueless fools. But they have the right to do it.

I believe that those who want to deprive others of the rights of free expression are the worst, most clueless fools ever. Any really powerful speech will offend someone. Defend it all or lose that right.

I am, I have realized, an outlier on DU. I am a very hide-bound, rigid, absolutist defender of the First Amendment in its entirety; I believe it is the real foundation of our society and that without it there can be no peace and no progress, nor can the rest of the Constitution be defended. I am afraid that this position is very much out of style.

As a practical matter, I find flag burning counter productive, as it pisses off many Americans, who will then tune out whatever else you have to say about their issue.

The American flag symbolizes a great nation, but also a nation that has done terrible things.

As for the Confederate flag: people are overjoyed over its removal from the grounds of the SC capitol. I'd assert that it's a meaningless gesture that has done nothing to substantively impact the families of the victims or the AA population of SC. Change the gun laws - then I'll be impressed.

The inherent value and substantive power of the First Amendment over the flag is on supreme exhibit when that happens.

Weaker nations couldn't do it.

Personally I've never burned the U.S. Flag and don't intend on doing so, while I may disagree with a flag burner, I feel more empowered when they do it for their own conscientious protest.

If they're doing it just for superficial, malicious reasons I refuse to grant them the power of enraging me over the destruction of a symbol, I view the act as being their internal problem, and not mine.

Thanks for the thread, kentuck.

I would never do it though.

even though it enrages the RW especially.

I am always angry that the conservatives mostly are
the ones to use the flag as a symbol of patriotism.

When OWS was in my city I bought about 20 small
flags and told them as "we the people" they should
wave it at all passers by. As I had to leave then I
don't know what they did with the flags.

Perhaps, next time Bernie comes to town I may do
the same thing. Why not?!!

As represented by the flag they burn.

I support their right to burn the flag, but they're still dicks.

and a statement I wouldn't make.

But I wouldn't do it.

The flag is a symbol of our country. All the good and bad that go with it.

Some people who are angry burn the flag. Others take positive action to make changes. I prefer the latter course.