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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:04 AM Jul 2015

Why I'm leery of the word "populism"

I'm adapting this from a different thread, because it's something I care about. I worry about "populism" because in the US it has always historically proven to be white supremacy dressed up in the language of economic justice.

The first big incarnation of populism, the "People's Party", endorsed William Jennings Bryan in 1896. Here's something of his from a stump speech:

http://www.edchange.org/multicultural/speeches/w_bryan_white.html

No one can travel among the dark-skinned races of the Orient without feeling that the white man occupies an especially favored position among the children of men, and the recognition of this fact is accompanied by the conviction that there is a duty inseparably connected with the advantages enjoyed.

There is a white man's burden -- a burden which the white man should not shirk even if he could, a burden which he could not shirk even if he would. That no one liveth unto himself or dieth unto himself, has a national as well as an individual application. Our destinies are so interwoven that each exerts an influence directly or indirectly upon all others.

Sometimes this influence is unconsciously exerted, as when, for instance, the good or bad precedent set by one nation in dealing with its own affairs is followed by some other nation. Sometimes the influence is incidentally exerted, as when, for example, a nation, in the extension of its commerce, introduces its language and enlarges the horizon of the people with whom it trades.


Later, the populist movement of the 1920s hitched its star to Robert M. LaFollette, who pushed eugenics into Wisconsin social policy. A decade later, the standardbearers of populism were Huey P. Long and Fr. Charles Coughlin, whose racism (I hope) needs no introduction. Long and Coughlin both railed constantly against FDR for giving away too much of the New Deal to minorities (modern thinkers tend to fault him severely for the fact that the New Deal barely included nonwhites at all; even that was too much for the populists of the day) with the result that both broke with FDR by 1936 after supporting him in 1932. FDR, remember, was a Bourbon Democrat, not a populist, at least in terms of the voting coalition he brought to the party.

This era (the 1920s and 1930s) also saw the second resurgence of the KKK, largely in the midwest; the Klan was every bit a "populist" and "progressive" movement in its day (and at this point, Strom Thurmond was a "progressive" Democrat who opposed many of FDR's policies because they involved to some extent white tax money going to blacks -- the progressives and populists wanted a fully functioning social democracy for whites only).

The next populist national leader was George Wallace, who admittedly had a "dynamic" view on racial issues, but only achieved populist success as a virulent racist. This gets to my premise on Bernie: the history of populism has not been of racist demogogues turning aggrieved whites against blacks and immigrants, but of racist aggrieved whites pushing their leaders into increasingly racist positions -- c.f. Wallace's vow never to be "out-n****red" by an opponent again.

The more recent appearance of populism as a self-identified movement hit public attention in 1992 with the Perot fans, who are essentially the same people as the current Tea Party.

Populism -- at least its core ideas -- did precede Bryan (consider the anti-Masonic and anti-immigrant "Know Nothings" of the middle 19th century), but the 1890s was the first time I know of that a movement consistently called itself "populist". At any rate, the consistent theme, at least to my eyes, has been that of aggrieved working class/poor whites, generally rural, and increasingly "ethnic white" as time progressed (and as the "ethnics" became "white&quot .

It is a truism, variously attributed to many writers, that if America were entirely white we would have the most socialist government in the developed world, and that's probably true; for an entire book on that question, see Katznelson's "Fear Itself" on the role white supremacy played in the establishment of the New Deal. But the fact remains: government programs that are seen as helping white people (SS, Medicare, SSDI) are viewed highly positively by poor whites, while government programs that are seen as helping nonwhites (SSI, TANF/AFDC, SNAP) are viewed highly negatively by poor whites (in general, of course).

Populism scares me. I admit it. It has nothing to do with the populists' taking on rich people. It has everything to do with the fact that the aggrieved white working class left to its own devices has shown itself to be very, very racist, over and over again.
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Why I'm leery of the word "populism" (Original Post) Recursion Jul 2015 OP
Most of the populist movements of the nineteenth century movement... DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #1
That's another reason I'm leery (nt) Recursion Jul 2015 #2
Another reason I'm leery is because it's such an ambiguous term./nt DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #3
Sounds like you're describing newblewtoo Jul 2015 #7
I don't believe Barack Obama held himself out as a populist. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #13
And he proved it by pushing ANTI-DEMOCRATIC bills like the TPP and TPA cascadiance Jul 2015 #66
He is the most consequential and transformational president in my lifetime DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #68
Populism is being for the people. HooptieWagon Jul 2015 #4
Is it being for what the people want or what the people need? el_bryanto Jul 2015 #8
Depends on who is talking. MineralMan Jul 2015 #10
+1 YoungDemCA Jul 2015 #18
No, a better word for what you are describing would be POWERism! cascadiance Jul 2015 #22
Right wing populism is disgustingly racist, and you see that with figures like Donald Trump. PotatoChip Jul 2015 #47
You are confusing the term populism with the issues it is used for... cascadiance Jul 2015 #61
I don't entirely disagree. PotatoChip Jul 2015 #63
I think right wing populism is primarily focused on social issues... cascadiance Jul 2015 #64
It can be either. HooptieWagon Jul 2015 #15
Yuh. Working class whites, like Donald Trump, right? nt Zorra Jul 2015 #20
You think Donald Trump is a working class white? el_bryanto Jul 2015 #21
No. But it seems that's where his support is coming from... DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #32
Sarcasm: Zorra Jul 2015 #42
Ah - so your argument is that since Donald Trump is anti Latino, and anti Muslim el_bryanto Jul 2015 #58
You almost got it. I am mocking the idea that the working class should be singled out Zorra Jul 2015 #67
The word "populism" is widely misused in political MineralMan Jul 2015 #5
I agree: it is a style more than an ideology (nt) Recursion Jul 2015 #6
Yep.People tend to forget that populism in the United States gave sufrommich Jul 2015 #9
That's my real point Recursion Jul 2015 #11
You made your point well. nt sufrommich Jul 2015 #12
But in our context, the majority of PEOPLE don't want to have power being wielded by a 1% over them. cascadiance Jul 2015 #23
The word "populist" has nothing to do with political position. MineralMan Jul 2015 #25
But Koch brothers and their agents could NEVER be called "populist"... cascadiance Jul 2015 #33
"Populist" politicians need not promote what is good for people. MineralMan Jul 2015 #41
Could not disagree more. You have described a fake, not a populist. merrily Jul 2015 #53
I would call that FAKE populism... cascadiance Jul 2015 #62
The old two edged sword cliche' applies here HassleCat Jul 2015 #14
Baloney. merrily Jul 2015 #55
Cogent analysis (eom) HassleCat Jul 2015 #75
You would be, wouldn't you n/t Populist_Prole Jul 2015 #16
You're one of the good populists./nt DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #17
Considering you constantly argue for economic policies that benefit the wealthy jeff47 Jul 2015 #19
You accuse DUers of faking about caring about racial issues? Let me guess bettyellen Jul 2015 #24
lol! Nice try. Zorra Jul 2015 #28
Nope- facts. He does it below again. Just wow. bettyellen Jul 2015 #38
He doesn't. He needs a way to attack populism. jeff47 Jul 2015 #29
I've seen loads of people here refer to the New Deal as something we shld look back on and emulate- bettyellen Jul 2015 #37
I don't think it's irrelevant. I think the OP is using that concern to advance a different cause. jeff47 Jul 2015 #39
African Americans have, historically often named their male children "Roosevelt", Zorra Jul 2015 #46
I had no idea Democrats hated FDR until I joined DU. Rex Jul 2015 #48
I had no idea it was either love or hate- the "most racist" bettyellen Jul 2015 #52
Lots of shitty propaganda being thrown around DU Rex Jul 2015 #54
I don't hate FDR. 1930s populists did. Which is my point Recursion Jul 2015 #72
Wow, lol. Not sure how that changes history, but... bettyellen Jul 2015 #51
Nah. I was a liberal democrat by 1965, long before I ever heard of Bernie. nt Zorra Jul 2015 #70
Not true inre AAs historically voting Democrat. HooptieWagon Jul 2015 #78
I want both and both are important. They aren't mutually exclusive. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #34
+100000000. Clearly, Bernie has the undivided attention of the 1%. Zorra Jul 2015 #26
Why I'm leery of the word 'friend'. Rex Jul 2015 #44
It's such a total hoot, it's almost cute! Zorra Jul 2015 #69
You'd be incorrect in that thinking. MineralMan Jul 2015 #27
Yeah, posters have zero history on DU. jeff47 Jul 2015 #31
I don't think populism is inherently good or evil. DemocratSinceBirth Jul 2015 #36
Exactly. It's just an appeal to the "people." MineralMan Jul 2015 #40
IKR!? It is funny watching 99% of the posters here notice and slam the handful Rex Jul 2015 #45
I can't read minds, but I can read posts. I don't know if recursion is concerned about racism, but merrily Jul 2015 #57
Well I now know I do not need to set my watch nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #30
Martin O'Malley pitches populism in New Hampshire Rex Jul 2015 #49
And this should be in primaries nadinbrzezinski Jul 2015 #50
Once again, Bernie and his supporters are smeared as racists Trajan Jul 2015 #35
Yes, once again, Bernie is smeared as a racist. Let's see what populist ACTUALLY means. merrily Jul 2015 #59
. Rex Jul 2015 #43
I guess LBJ was not a populist? kentuck Jul 2015 #56
Transparent much? merrily Jul 2015 #60
Populism definition: mmonk Jul 2015 #65
I know what you mean. George Wallace is the last major candidate who ran as a "populist" pnwmom Jul 2015 #71
I assume when people use it here, it's shorthand for a progressive populist. Starry Messenger Jul 2015 #73
Populism is considered "problematic" now. romanic Jul 2015 #74
This is a much more nuanced attack on Bernie and those who support him than the blatant Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2015 #76
The OP is likely the farthest Right of any poster on DU. He's "leery" because populism threatens Romulox Jul 2015 #77
Bingo Populist_Prole Jul 2015 #80
Sometimes I wonder newblewtoo Jul 2015 #79

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
1. Most of the populist movements of the nineteenth century movement...
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jul 2015

Most of the populist movements of the nineteenth century ultimately failed because poor white folks always ended up siding with rich white folks over poor black folks.


 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
66. And he proved it by pushing ANTI-DEMOCRATIC bills like the TPP and TPA
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 04:44 PM
Jul 2015

that are anything BUT populist in their approach!

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
68. He is the most consequential and transformational president in my lifetime
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 04:49 PM
Jul 2015

He is the most consequential and transformational president in my lifetime and I eagerly look forward to Hillary Clinton defending his legacy from Republican attacks and building on it.



 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
4. Populism is being for the people.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:12 AM
Jul 2015

The opposite would be being for an oligarchy...corporatism, theocracy, or monarchy.
Which side are you on?
https://m.


el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
8. Is it being for what the people want or what the people need?
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:19 AM
Jul 2015

As has been pointed out above -a lot of the working class whites would like to see Latinos and Muslims driven out of the country, not to mention blacks.

Bryant

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
10. Depends on who is talking.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:22 AM
Jul 2015

Just about every politician pretends to speak for "the people." None actually do, because no such unified group exists.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
18. +1
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:05 PM
Jul 2015

What "populism" in practice often means is speaking for the (politically, not numerically) dominant group. Which in America, is straight white men.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
22. No, a better word for what you are describing would be POWERism!
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:27 PM
Jul 2015

POPULISM reflects "populace" which doesn't just talk about people that are more *powerful*. It is where people stand AGAINST dominant power, the opposite of how you are trying to define it!

PotatoChip

(3,186 posts)
47. Right wing populism is disgustingly racist, and you see that with figures like Donald Trump.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:01 PM
Jul 2015

It's a good thing that the populism of the LEFT is it's polar opposite; welcoming to all races.

Indeed, people like Eugene V Debs, a socialist populist, was one of the founders of The Industrial Workers of the World (aka 'the Wobblies or just 'the I.W.W'). The I.W.W was unique for a labor union of that time period due to it's welcoming embrace of workers of all races.


One of the IWW's most important contributions to the labor movement and broader push towards social justice was that, when founded, it was the only American union to welcome all workers including women, immigrants, African Americans and Asians into the same organization.
Indeed, many of its early members were immigrants, and some, like Carlo Tresca, Joe Hill and Elizabeth Gurley Flynn, rose to prominence in the leadership. Finns formed a sizeable portion of the immigrant IWW membership. "Conceivably, the number of Finns belonging to the I.W.W. was somewhere between five and ten thousand."[16] The Finnish-language newspaper of the IWW, Industrialisti, published out of Duluth, Minnesota, was the union's only daily paper. At its peak, it ran 10,000 copies per issue. Another Finnish-language Wobbly publication was the monthly Tie Vapauteen ("Road to Freedom&quot . Also of note was the Finnish IWW educational institute, the Work People's College in Duluth, and the Finnish Labour Temple in Port Arthur, Ontario which served as the IWW Canadian administration for several years. One example of the union's commitment to equality was Local 8, a longshoremen's branch in Philadelphia, one of the largest ports in the nation in the WWI era. Led by the African American Ben Fletcher, Local 8 had over 5,000 members, the majority of whom were African American, along with more than a thousand immigrants (primarily Lithuanians and Poles), Irish Americans, and numerous others.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World


I agree with you cascadiance. Populism is about people power, and left wing populism wants to lift every working man and woman up, regardless of race.
 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
61. You are confusing the term populism with the issues it is used for...
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:50 PM
Jul 2015

YES, I just indicated that in certain contexts, populism can be used for bad things. But in most national contexts, where we are talking about a majority of Americans, populism in my book is a good thing. We have the bill of rights to protect us from most of the bad populist things.

But if we try to write off "populism" as bad, just because in a few instances where you have some communities run by crazy white people, then you write off one more means of us all organizing against the REAL problem of the U.S., which is the growing oligarchic FASCISM which is taking over, that needs populism to fight it, not only from us on the left, but many on the right that are just as unhappy with the corporate crap their party is using to screw with their jobs, etc. too.

We might not agree with many Republicans on many social issues, but we need to come together to get back our system of democracy that is going to need a POPULIST approach, not a "left wing" or "right wing" approach which is what the oligarchs are happy making any issue that is talked about in to, so that they don't have to deal with the big issues where THEY are the "extremists" against the well being of all Americans.

Some might try to say that many issues like H-1B visa can be "bad populism" of rejecting immigrants. I personally LIKE working with immigrants here, which is one reason I moved to the west coast from the midwest so that I could be in a more diverse community. But, just because H-1B has more immigrants coming in to work here, doesn't mean it is good for either American workers or the workers it is supposed to help get jobs here. It is bad for BOTH of us! They are brought here under indentured servant (slave) conditions, where they should be allowed to work here with green cards, and have more of an even playing field with us to encourage greater salaries for all of us, and not encourage a race to the bottom that the oligarchs want to use "guest worker" programs to do.

We have to be clear when taking a populist approach that we are working for a majority of Americans, and that we aren't looking to use it as a means to push any group of people already suffering as an oppressed group further down the ladder as a part of that effort, that some groups do. Now we might want to oppress more the billionaires in our actions, but given that they've been oppressing us, I think getting some ways of correcting that situation, if it can be called "oppression" is justified.

If we focus on areas that we have common ground with everyone, and don't try to just define it as "left", then we'll be able to get the numbers to force change. We should be clear to those on the right that we aren't endorsing many of their right wing viewpoints, any more than they should endorse some of our more left wing viewpoints on some issues, but that we should focus on those issues that aren't really left/right but 99% vs. 1%. If we have a good democratic system, perhaps we can work out our differences later in a more civilized way, rather than one group trying to force their ways on someone else.

PotatoChip

(3,186 posts)
63. I don't entirely disagree.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 04:04 PM
Jul 2015

I was merely pointing out that right wing populism (what the OP is describing) is an entirely different animal than left wing populism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_populism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_populism


I, for one, want to have nothing to do with the racist right wing populism of figures like Pat Buchanan, Donald Trump or any of the Tea Party idiots no matter how uphill a battle this election is going to be.

But thank you for your thoughtful post.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
64. I think right wing populism is primarily focused on social issues...
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 04:28 PM
Jul 2015

... which is what our corporate controlled media likes to focus giving attention to, so that we can be divided when it comes to this form of "populism". What the corporate media doesn't want to give attention to is what some may call "left wing populism" that is more focused on economic issues, as that is where the populism can be used to fight oppression by the corporate state.

Though I think there is overlap between what many on the right call populism and what many on the left call populism.

There are many right wing folks just as concerned about the effects of the TPA and TPP bills, and those colluding in congress didn't have "left" or "right" wing ideology hats on when they voted on these bills. They had their corporatist hats on when they voted for them. TPA and TPP is an example of where a populist approach (and not an approach that is "left" or "right" was the proper approach to fight this form of extremism, which is power by the powerful few over the many).

I talked with a Republican who was protesting this, and he started to bring up the John Birch society, etc. and I stopped him, but noted that I was just as concerned about our loss of national sovereignty with the pending ISDS courts from this legislation as he might have been about the loss of national sovereignty that so many protested the creation of the UN and many of its structure was doing from the right side of the aisle earlier. That is a way to get some common understanding that both of us want the same thing... DEMOCRACY and an adherence to our constitution!!!

Thanks also for a more thoughtful conversation too.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
15. It can be either.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:34 AM
Jul 2015

It can be good or bad, just like democracy. In the case of LaFollette, Eugene Debs, and Sanders, etc, it's for the benefit of the populace.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
42. Sarcasm:
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 02:02 PM
Jul 2015
sar·casm
ˈsärˌkazəm/
noun
noun: sarcasm; plural noun: sarcasms

the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.


Think about it.

el_bryanto

(11,804 posts)
58. Ah - so your argument is that since Donald Trump is anti Latino, and anti Muslim
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:37 PM
Jul 2015

I should be mocked or held in contempt for suggesting that working class whites might be anti-Latino and anti-Muslim. This also implies that you don't believe that a signficant portion of working class whites are anti-Latino or anti-Muslim. Is that accurate?

Or are you just fucking around?

Bryant

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
67. You almost got it. I am mocking the idea that the working class should be singled out
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 04:49 PM
Jul 2015

by anti-democratic elitists who want to paint working people as racist for political purposes.

Hate is not limited by class, race, gender, or religion, and Donald Trump is a perfect illustration of how an oligarch can be as hateful as any other hater.



MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
5. The word "populism" is widely misused in political
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:14 AM
Jul 2015

discussion. It's not really a political point of view at all. It's simply the appeal to public support that both sides of the political equation have used for a very long time, as you so clearly pointed out.

Populism is simply a political strategy that is neither on the left or the right. Adolph Hitler was a populist - perhaps the most successful of all populists. We need to find a different term to use, I think.

Every politician who uses the phrase, "The people want" or "The American people want" is engaging in populist politics. None of those politicians is being accurate, since there is no unified will of the people in a nation of 300+ million people.

sufrommich

(22,871 posts)
9. Yep.People tend to forget that populism in the United States gave
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:20 AM
Jul 2015

us both FDR and George Wallace.It depends on who the populist is trying to appeal to.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
23. But in our context, the majority of PEOPLE don't want to have power being wielded by a 1% over them.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jul 2015

Now, they might not be unified on all issues, but in these times, the power of the few over the many is unprecedented throughout most of our history. The resistance against this kind of power is by definition POPULIST!

Now, the Koch brothers and other corporate power mongers might try to find some way to split the population and say that some issues are "populist" over others, to try and direct away from the primary *populist* movement against them and their power, since they can't try to coopt or trash the term "populist" the way they have "liberal" and "progressive".

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
25. The word "populist" has nothing to do with political position.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:37 PM
Jul 2015

Using it in that way simply dilutes the meaning of a very useful word.

We live in what is more or less a democratic republic. Power in this nation has shifted right and left frequently due to the vote of the people. In many states, that vote is almost always for the right. In those places, "populism" favors the right. In other places, it favors the left.

It's simply the wrong word to use to describe a politician or political party. Virtually every politician uses "populism" as part of his or her campaign strategy. It's not a word that attaches to any particular political philosophy. It is a strategy. We should probably stop using it to refer to candidates, I think.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
33. But Koch brothers and their agents could NEVER be called "populist"...
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:47 PM
Jul 2015

The kind of power that they wield is antithetical to what is considered "populism", when it is the power of the few trying to control the many.

Yes, in some areas you can have a larger and more bigoted populace who's upset with state level or national level laws that try to prevent them from doing bad things controlling smaller populations in their domain too. Yes, I understand that notion of how populism can be bad in those cases.

But DO understand, and so many of us do, that Koch brothers and their ilk can't define a "Populist Policy Institute" to serve them and their interests the way their agents have defined the "Progressive Policy Institute", because it would be hard for an institute to have it's name have any meaning, if it is working for the power of the few over the many.

They need to try to corrupt the term "populist" in other ways, and they look to be doing it here, by trying to point out in some cases where populism is used in other contexts (DWARFED by the populist notion of fighting corporate power in our government that is its national meaning now).

Heck demographics are close to having the white people in this country no longer being a majority too, so white people controlling black people or minorities on a national level, even if ALL white people thought like the KKK (which they don't and to pose that they would is an insult to many of us white people too), can no longer be considered being "populist".

Now we do have white privilege, and that is something that populism (both people of color and those of us who are white who are concerned about the problems with white privilege) are now fighting with a populist endeavor to fix too.

Using the term populism can also help bring in the people on the right and other independents to unite to do things like get the "Move to Amend" constitutional amendment passed, which many of them want passed as well as those of us on the left to get rid of corporate personhood. The Move to Amend movement is a populist movement, and shouldn't be defined as a "left" movement, or we will lower the participation in it that is needed to fight oppressive power that it is trying to overturn.

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
41. "Populist" politicians need not promote what is good for people.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 01:47 PM
Jul 2015

In fact, they often are not interested in that at all. They use populist strategies to try to convince people to vote for them, and those strategies often work, whether what the politician represents will work in favor of the "people" or not. Misusing the word does not mean that the actual meaning of the word changes. It just indicates that the person misusing the word doesn't really understand what the word means. Populism is simply the strategy of appealing to the "people," whether the truth is told or not. It can work for good or evil, depending on who is using the strategy.

For example, Adolf Hitler appealed to the people by promoting the idea that Jews were responsible for the conditions that prevailed in Germany in the 1930s. Scapegoats are often used by populists to gain support from people in bad circumstances. Here in the US, the scapegoat group can be liberals, socialists, people of color, immigrants or whatever you please. Populism merely attempts to convince the population that the person promoting him or herself has their best interests as a high priority. That needn't be true for a populist to appeal to the "people." We have many groups of "people" in this country. Every campaign attempts to present a "populist" message. It's essential to win elections. Oligarchs and dictators are common users of populism as a strategy. Sometimes, they succeed, as we have all seen.

Ronald Reagan was a populist politician. That he won in a historic landslide is evidence of the effectiveness of his strategy.

 

cascadiance

(19,537 posts)
62. I would call that FAKE populism...
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:59 PM
Jul 2015

Yes, people can be lead in to BELIEVING certain activities, etc. will work in their favor and most others' favor FALSELY, and therefore be lead to work in large groups to facilitate such activities, but ultimately, the net effect of that "populism" is not helping most people the way people are manipulated in to doing such activities. Now if you believe majority segments of large groups of people will often do the wrong thing, then you are in effect saying that you don't believe in the system of democracy, where the will of the majority is believed to be a good thing inherently within the system. So if you want that, then you want a different party than the "Democratic" party, which believes in a system that basically boils populism in to it, as a way to make a government system work properly.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
14. The old two edged sword cliche' applies here
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:26 AM
Jul 2015

Your example of LaFollette is a good one. He used his popular appeal, his populist tendency of standing up for the working person against the banks and railroads, to do many good things. And one bad thing, eugenics. Populism makes a point of "sticking up for the average Joe," but the average Joe is sometimes racist, xenophobic, homophobic, etc. and demands protection not just from the banks and corporations, but from his fellow citizens who don't look like him, or speak with an accent.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
19. Considering you constantly argue for economic policies that benefit the wealthy
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jul 2015

I really don't think you're at all concerned about racism.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
24. You accuse DUers of faking about caring about racial issues? Let me guess
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:33 PM
Jul 2015

How much of a priority thay are for you.
Can't be high up there if you're looking to take issue with people who give a shit.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
29. He doesn't. He needs a way to attack populism.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:43 PM
Jul 2015

And "You people have it too good" is Hoyt's angle. So Recursion is trying a different angle.

So he's now claiming concerns about populists who were also racists, as if racism is an inherent property of populism. That way he can pretend his post is only about race when actually it's about supporting neoliberal economics.

Populism does not require racism. Just like racism does not require populism. There have been populists who were racists. There have been racists who were not populists. There have been populists who were not racists.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
37. I've seen loads of people here refer to the New Deal as something we shld look back on and emulate-
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:55 PM
Jul 2015

Blissfully unaware of what a raw deal it was for many Americans who were excluded.
Not she why you'd think this should be viewed as irrelevant?

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
39. I don't think it's irrelevant. I think the OP is using that concern to advance a different cause.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 01:01 PM
Jul 2015

He's worried about populist economic policies. Post after post after post where he has supported free trade deals and supply-side economics (admittedly he isn't a supply-side fundamentalist like Paul Ryan). One of his favorite arguments was NAFTA did not hurt the US because unemployment did not soar the instant Clinton signed it.

So I don't think he's attacking populism out of concern for race. He's using race as an attack vector to advance his cause that is not stated in the OP.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
46. African Americans have, historically often named their male children "Roosevelt",
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 02:58 PM
Jul 2015

in honor of FDR.

It's mostly rich white Republican and Third Way conservative historical revisionists and their minions who use deceitful anti-New Deal propaganda to try to convince everyone that the New Deal was completely racist. Of course, rich white conservatives hate the New Deal, have always hated the New Deal, and therefore want people to think it was a terrible thing for America, because it helped the middle and working class gain power. In fact, the New Deal was primarily responsible for creating a long term Democratic party ruling political dynasty in the US. The New Deal is also primarily responsible for the overwhelming majority of African Americans historically voting Democratic.

So, should I believe what I see, or what a bunch of rich white conservatives tell me? I'll stop telling the truth about conservatives when they stop lying about everything.

Rosey Grier

Born in Cuthbert, Georgia as one of twelve children, Grier was named after Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who was governor of New York at the time of Grier's birth and was elected president of the United States later that year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosey_Grier


Roosevelt Williams (gridiron football)

Roosevelt "Roe" Williams, Jr. (born September 10, 1978 in Jacksonville, Florida) is a former American football cornerback of the National Football League. He was drafted by the Chicago Bears in the third round of the 2002 NFL Draft, 72nd overall. He received a football scholarship to Florida State University due to being academically ineligible he attended Tuskegee University.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Williams_%28gridiron_football%29


Roosevelt Taylor

Roosevelt "Rosey" Taylor (born July 4, 1937 in New Orleans, Louisiana) is a former American football safety who played for the Chicago Bears, San Francisco 49ers, and Washington Redskins of the National Football League. He played college football at Grambling State University.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Taylor


Rosey Brown (football)

Roosevelt "Rosey" Brown, Jr. (October 20, 1932 – June 9, 2004) was an American football offensive lineman in the National Football League for the New York Giants from 1953 to 1965.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosey_Brown




While it is true that Roosevelt, and the New Deal, were not perfect, the fact is, the New Deal made life better all around for most working and middle class Americans.

African Americans and the New Deal: A Look Back in History

As we celebrate Black History Month and reflect on the decades of struggle that was required to bring the African American community into the mainstream of American life, it seems fair to ask what impact, if any, the New Deal had on the movement to secure equal rights for Blacks during the difficult years of the 1930s and beyond.

Judged from the standards of today, of course, there is much we can criticize about the New Deal/Roosevelt era. It did not bring to an end the tremendous injustices that African Americans had to suffer on a day-to-day basis, and some of its activities, such as the work of the Federal Housing Administration, served to build rather than break down the walls of segregation that separated black from white in Jim Crow America. Yet as Mary McLeod Bethune once noted, the Roosevelt era represented “the first time in their history” that African Americans felt that they could communicate their grievances to their government with the “expectancy of sympathetic understanding and interpretation.” Indeed, it was during the New Deal, that the silent, invisible hand of racism was fully exposed as a national issue; as a problem that at the very least needed to be recognized; as something the county could no longer pretend did not exist.

This shift in attitude, as Havard Sitkoff, the noted historian of the African American experience in the New Deal observes, helped propel the issue of race relations onto the national stage and usher in a new political climate in which “Afro-Americans and their allies could begin to struggle with some expectation of success.” In short, the New Deal, and the rhetorical support given to the cause of civil rights by both Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt gave the African American community hope; the chance to dream of a better future, no matter how difficult the struggle might be along the way.

It is also important to recognize that this hope was not merely based on empty promises of change, but on the actual words and deeds spoken by Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt and taken by the federal government at a time when racism was deeply seared into the American psyche. With respect to the critical issue of employment, for example, we know that by 1935, the Works Progress Administration (WPA) was employing approximately 350,000 African Americans annually, about 15% of its total workforce. In the Civilian Conservation Corps, the percentage of blacks who took part climbed from roughly 3% at its outset in 1933 to over 11% by the close of 1938 with a total of more than 350,000 having been enrolled in the CCC by the time the program was shut down in 1942. The National Youth Administration, under the direction of Aubrey Williams, hired more black administrators than any other New deal agency; employed African American supervisors to oversee the work the agency was doing on behalf of black youth for each state in the south; and assisted more than 300,000 Africa American youth during the Depression. In 1934, the Public Works Administration (PWA) inserted a clause in all government construction contracts that established a quota for the hiring of black laborers based on the 1930 labor census and as a consequence a significant number of blacks received skilled employment on PWA projects.

http://www.rooseveltinstitute.org/new-roosevelt/african-americans-and-new-deal-look-back-history



 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
48. I had no idea Democrats hated FDR until I joined DU.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:12 PM
Jul 2015

"Only the mob and the elite can be attracted by the momentum of totalitarianism itself. The masses have to be won by propaganda."
—Hannah Arendt

"As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too. Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action: You liberate a city by destroying it. Words are used to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests."
—Gore Vidal

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
52. I had no idea it was either love or hate- the "most racist"
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:29 PM
Jul 2015

Or not racist at all, until I heard it here folks. Sounds pretty over simplistic to me.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
72. I don't hate FDR. 1930s populists did. Which is my point
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:02 PM
Jul 2015

Coughlin and Long both turned on him because the New Deal wasn't white supremacist enough.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
51. Wow, lol. Not sure how that changes history, but...
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:27 PM
Jul 2015

Get your jabs in where you can.
By your own standards- doesn't this make you one of Sander's cutting and pasting minions? It would appear so.
I don't carry water for anyone myself. The bios are pretty dammed funny.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
78. Not true inre AAs historically voting Democrat.
Sat Jul 18, 2015, 10:30 AM
Jul 2015

In fact, it's a relatively recent phenomenon. AAs voted as a Republican bloc for almost 100 years. It was during the Civil Rights era, when the GOP adopted the Southern Strategy and welcomed the racists that AAs switched parties.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
26. +100000000. Clearly, Bernie has the undivided attention of the 1%.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:39 PM
Jul 2015

Here's the game:

The 1% is attempting to paint populists as racist, in order to frighten minorities into going to the polls to vote for the the wealthy Third way corporatist Hillary Clinton in the primaries to defeat the illusionary populist devil they are creating.

Fortunately, for the rest of us, the 1%, in their arrogant, ivory tower elitism and sense of privilege are overlooking the fact that their childish attempts to frighten what they consider to be "ignorant dark skinned children" into voting for their chosen rich white corporatist candidate, are insulting as all hell to minority folks.

Minorities have long had to survive on their wits in a bullshit white world, and know what the rich white imperialist fucks are up to with their phony racism pitch propaganda.

It's sickening.

The 1% is afraid, very afraid...

Bernie Sanders moves to larger venue for Phoenix speech

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/politics/2015/07/16/bernie-sanders-phoenix-speech-larger-venue/30237471/

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
44. Why I'm leery of the word 'friend'.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 02:06 PM
Jul 2015

With friends like the OP, who needs enemies? Their concern trolling on this site is pathetic to watch, but the usual suspects chime in and make it amusing.

DemocratSinceBirth

(99,710 posts)
36. I don't think populism is inherently good or evil.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:49 PM
Jul 2015

"Fighting Bob" La Follette Sr. -good
George Walalce- bad

MineralMan

(146,324 posts)
40. Exactly. It's just an appeal to the "people."
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 01:42 PM
Jul 2015

Which "people" a populist campaign appeals to is open to question. Populism can appeal to bigots or fair-minded people, and often does. Your examples are good ones, as were the examples in the OP. Hitler was a "populist," too. It's a strategy, not a political philosophy. Attempt to redefine the word are also commonplace.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
45. IKR!? It is funny watching 99% of the posters here notice and slam the handful
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 02:08 PM
Jul 2015

that always support the 1% in whatever they do. Well amusing is more like the word I am trying to come up with. Just ignore them, they are the tiny minority here that the rest of us laugh out loud at.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
57. I can't read minds, but I can read posts. I don't know if recursion is concerned about racism, but
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:33 PM
Jul 2015

I do know his posts do not favor the 99%.

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
35. Once again, Bernie and his supporters are smeared as racists
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 12:49 PM
Jul 2015

By Hilary supporters in DU ...

Shameful but acting shameless ....

It's going to be a long primary season .. I intend to break it up with a number of meetings of Bernie supporters in Portland ....

We aren't in this to lose, especially to a cadre of deceivers ...

merrily

(45,251 posts)
59. Yes, once again, Bernie is smeared as a racist. Let's see what populist ACTUALLY means.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:37 PM
Jul 2015
pop·u·list
ˈpäpyələst/
noun
noun: populist; plural noun: populists

1.
a member or adherent of a political party seeking to represent the interests of ordinary people.
a person who holds, or who is concerned with, the views of ordinary people.
a member of the Populist Party, a US political party formed in 1891 that advocated the interests of labor and farmers, free coinage of silver, a graduated income tax, and government control of monopolies.
noun: Populist

adjective
adjective: populist

1.
of or relating to a populist or populists.
"a populist leader"

Origin
late 19th century: from Latin populus ‘people’ + -ist.
Translate populist to
Use over time for: populist


Oh, look. Nothing about racism. Nothing about just pretending to care about ordinary people while really seeking to benefit the 1%.

The bs on this thread is even thicker than usual.

merrily

(45,251 posts)
60. Transparent much?
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 03:46 PM
Jul 2015

I so appreciate your concern.



And aren't you cute, posting this in GD? We see you.

Some advice: sticks and stones may break your bones, but words will never hurt you. Don't worry about the word "populism." It has a great defnition.

If your real worry is the word racism, worry about people who have engaged in racism and race baiting.

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
65. Populism definition:
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 04:34 PM
Jul 2015

At its root, populism is a belief in the power of regular people, and in their right to have control over their government rather than a small group of political insiders or a wealthy elite.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
73. I assume when people use it here, it's shorthand for a progressive populist.
Fri Jul 17, 2015, 11:13 PM
Jul 2015

Just like when I say: listen to Black people, hopefully my readers know I don't mean Ben Carson. Assume good faith and consider the context. That said--

Most of our economic system was built on racism, so pursuing anti-racist legislation is tantamount to progressive economic policy, imo. Instead of a trickle-down from policies that largely benefit the white middle classes, our economy would probably do even better with policies that target institutional racism and support minority economic and social justice. It would trickle-up.

Like you said though, we still have the bigots to contend with.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
76. This is a much more nuanced attack on Bernie and those who support him than the blatant
Sat Jul 18, 2015, 09:55 AM
Jul 2015

racial attack in the diary about him that featured pictures such as the two police posing ith the black man as a hunting trophy.

So congrats for that, I guess.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
77. The OP is likely the farthest Right of any poster on DU. He's "leery" because populism threatens
Sat Jul 18, 2015, 10:21 AM
Jul 2015

the rich.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
80. Bingo
Sat Jul 18, 2015, 01:23 PM
Jul 2015

That poster and a couple of others too. They post like rubber stamps on any posts with economic populism as a theme in a desperate attempt to skew the discourse.

newblewtoo

(667 posts)
79. Sometimes I wonder
Sat Jul 18, 2015, 01:17 PM
Jul 2015

why people think they own words or concepts by slapping on a party label.

Here is a great speech from Roosevelt (Teddy) given at the turn of the century after leaving the Republican party.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-famous-populist-speech-teddy-roosevelt-gave-right-after-getting-shot-2011-10

I have said before I think both Sanders and Trump are both riding a wave of populism and that neither will make it through the primary season. Trump may try to run as a "Bull Moose" (ending up looking more like Bullwinkle IMHO), Sanders has said he will not run a third party campaign.

Candidates may talk the talk but it is more important that they walk the walk once in office.

My first ever protest was against Wallace / Lemay while living down South. It was not a very 'popular' thing to do down there and taught me several valuable lessons: (1) Lots of people talk the talk. (2) Not so many show up to walk the walk. (3) Stay on camera if you are about to get your head bashed in. (4) Cops are not always your friend.


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